January 17, 1911

LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

In order that my hon. friend may not be too disheartened

Topic:   SUPPLY.-THE CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY.
Subtopic:   J863 COMMONS
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CON

David Henderson

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HENDERSON.

Oh, I am not disheartened.

Topic:   SUPPLY.-THE CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY.
Subtopic:   J863 COMMONS
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LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

Just let me ask him to look at the estimates and he will find that

with scarcely an exception, the items for which I am now asking the approval of the committee are revotes. There is scarcely a new item in the estimates now before the House, and under these circumstances, my hon. friend would not expect that a public building for Milton should appear in these estimates. The representations which he has made will have my careful consideration and when we come to consider the question of proceeding with new votes for the erection of public buildings, I will give the matter my best attention.

Topic:   SUPPLY.-THE CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY.
Subtopic:   J863 COMMONS
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CON

Thomas Wilson Crothers

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CROTHERS.

The minister has spoken about these being revotes. I would like to ask him if most of them began in the year 1907-8 just before the last election and have been carried on ever since ?

Topic:   SUPPLY.-THE CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY.
Subtopic:   J863 COMMONS
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LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

I do not think so.

Topic:   SUPPLY.-THE CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY.
Subtopic:   J863 COMMONS
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CON

Thomas Wilson Crothers

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CROTHERS.

I think so.

Topic:   SUPPLY.-THE CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY.
Subtopic:   J863 COMMONS
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LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

I do not think so.

Topic:   SUPPLY.-THE CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY.
Subtopic:   J863 COMMONS
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CON

George Taylor

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. TAYLOR (Leeds).

They were all in then, and were withheld. I cut a clipping from a paper the other day that I think will be of interest to the Minister of Public Works, because it contains words spoken by a gentleman whom, I know, he admires and I will just read it.

Topic:   SUPPLY.-THE CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY.
Subtopic:   J863 COMMONS
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LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

Is it poetry or prose ? Mr. TAYLOR (Leeds). Reading.

Topic:   SUPPLY.-THE CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY.
Subtopic:   J863 COMMONS
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BUILDING PUBLIC WORKS.


Mr. Pugsley's ' promising ' trip to the Lake Huron ports met with the enthusiastic approval of the Goderich ' Signal,' which believes that the Minister of Public Works should get in ' touch ' with the needs of the country. The suggestion of the 'News' that all wharfs and other improvements should he constructed on the recommendation of a civil rather than a political engineer stirred up the deeps of turbid wrath, in the ' Signal's ' soul, and caused them to overflow in several ' sticks ' of vituperative brevier. President Taft, who, we may agree, is a man of some eminence in politics and in law, is inclined to join the ' News ' in violent disagreement with the ' Signal.' The president spoke on the 20th instant at Cincinnati before the Ohio River Improvement Association. One of his most telling paragraphs follows: ' The evil in the corrupt control of a Congress or a legislature by private interests is manifest and always calls for condemnation. But there is another kind of legislative abuse as dangerous to public weal in certain of its aspects as corruption, and that is the selfish combination of the representatives of the majority of the constituencies to expend the money of the government for the temporary benefit of a part or with little benefit to the whole. It is the duty of the majority and the minority to legislate always for the benefit of the whole people, and any enactments that look to the selfish exploitation of less than the whole at the expense of the whole, and without benefit to the whole, is a species of legislative abuse that comes very near corruption in its effect, and is perhaps more dangerous than corruption, because those who support such a combination are generally bold in its defence.' So much for the condemnation of the system which is operative in Canada under the distinguished direction of Mr. Pugsley. M . Taft's remedy is in exact accord with that suggested by the ' News. . . ., ' A supervising hoard of engineers should recommend to Congress the improvements in the order of their importance, and should have the power to advise that body tliat the beginning of certain improvements should be postponed until other improvements are completely finished/ There is the recommendation of the President of the United States as to what should be done, and I presume that is the *wav it is conducted there. But here we are erecting post offices in little villages with a population of 700 or 800 people and a revenue of $400 or $500, when we could rent a suitable building for $44 a year The minister will expend $15,000 on a new built -ing in such a place after paying $2,000 for a site. Not only in Quebec, but in Ontario we will find towns of 2,000 or 3,000 people, vithout a public building in them. We 'an noint them out.


LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

Will my hon. friend allow me to ask him a question ? Suppose I were to accede to the request of my hon. friend from -Holton (Mr. Henderson) and put an amount in the Supplementary Estimates to erect a public building m the town of Milton, the shire town of the county with a population of 1,800, would my hon. friend say that was a corrupt act, an attempt to corrupt the constituency ot Halton, and would he condemn it?

Topic:   SUPPLY.-THE CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY.
Subtopic:   BUILDING PUBLIC WORKS.
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CON

George Taylor

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. TAYLOR (Leeds).

I would say that the minister should have an engineeung staff to report on the size of the place and the revenue to be derived before he would consider the question of putting a building there and then, if the engineers recommended it, owing to the importance of the place, the tevenue to be derived and on account of its being a profitable investment to 'the country, he might go on with the erection of the building. The government are simply the trustees for the people. Would the minister, if it were his own business, conduct it in that way ? Not a bit of it, and he ought to do for the country what he would do for himself. That is the way every public man -should look at the expenditure of public money. If this were my own money would I spend it in such a place ? No, I would go to a larger place where there would be some profit on the investment. There is no profit on an investment of $15,000 where the revenue was only $400 and where you can rent

187 j

a place to do the business of the country in for $44. There are lots of other places in the country with a large revenue where they have no public accommodation whatever.

Topic:   SUPPLY.-THE CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY.
Subtopic:   BUILDING PUBLIC WORKS.
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LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

Since when has my hon. friend begun to entertain these views ? I understand that my hon. friend has been in parliament for some twenty odd years. I happen to know that in my own province, some twenty odd years ago, the government of that day erected two public buildings, one in the town of Marysville, and one in the village of Sussex, neither of which places was as important as Napierville, the place where we are asking for an approbation for a public building to-night, I followed the newspapers of the day and I followed ' Hansard ' and I do not recollect that my hon. friend ever condemned the government of that day for doing it. On the contrary I know that the action of the government was very generally approved of in providing public buildings in these two places.

Topic:   SUPPLY.-THE CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY.
Subtopic:   BUILDING PUBLIC WORKS.
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CON

George Taylor

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. TAYLOR (Leeds).

I will tell my hon. friend how it was with respect to my own town which had a population of 3,000 and no public building. I approached the government of which I was a supporter over twenty years ago, and asked them to put up a post office. The reply was that if you will provide a site we will consider the matter. A site was given in the very centre of the town and they put up a building which cost $10,000.

PUGSLEY. Does my hon. friend think it was a proper thing for the government to say to this little town of Ganano-que: This country recognizes that you ought to have a public building; we are willing to spend $10,000 there, but we will not put up a building unless you put your hands m your pockets and furnish to the government ^ of the country a free site for the building.

PANCASPER- That is what you did m St. Catharines.

Topic:   SUPPLY.-THE CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY.
Subtopic:   BUILDING PUBLIC WORKS.
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LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

I did not do it, and I have refused to stipulate that if we are to put up a public building in any place a site must be furnished.

Topic:   SUPPLY.-THE CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY.
Subtopic:   BUILDING PUBLIC WORKS.
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CON

Richard Blain

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BLAIN.

My hon. friend has accepted sites?

Topic:   SUPPLY.-THE CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY.
Subtopic:   BUILDING PUBLIC WORKS.
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LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

If they volunteer it well and good, but I will not stipulate.

Mr: LANCASTER. The government did insist that a site costing $6,500 should be purchased before they built a drill hall there.

Topic:   SUPPLY.-THE CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY.
Subtopic:   BUILDING PUBLIC WORKS.
Permalink
LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

That was before I came here.

Topic:   SUPPLY.-THE CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY.
Subtopic:   BUILDING PUBLIC WORKS.
Permalink
CON

George Taylor

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. TAYLOR (Leeds).

Topic:   SUPPLY.-THE CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY.
Subtopic:   BUILDING PUBLIC WORKS.
Permalink

January 17, 1911