December 14, 1910

CON

Frederick Debartzch Monk

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MONK.

I have no objection to that. But what my hon. friend (Mr. King) says reminds me that there are other reasons in connection with the English Act m support of this clause which I can point out when the clause comes up again.

On section 25: , ,

Any other corporation may, if its constating instruments permit, hold shares m a society; hut the society shall not lend any part of its funds to such other corporation until the minister has given his consent to such loan.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   CO-OPERATIVE CREDIT SOCIETIES.
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CON

Frederick Debartzch Monk

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MONK.

It means that an agricultural society, for instance, may take shares, but the co-operative society shall not loan any of its funds unless the minister gives his consent to such loan. It often happens that a small agricultural society, or local circle, may desire to take some snares in this society, and it may do so, but the society itself cannot loan any funds to such corporation unless the minister permits it.

On section 26-votes and proxies.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   CO-OPERATIVE CREDIT SOCIETIES.
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CON

Edmund Boyd Osler

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. OSLER.

That also applies to a small company.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   CO-OPERATIVE CREDIT SOCIETIES.
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CON

Frederick Debartzch Monk

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MONK.

Is my hon. friend opposed to voting by proxy? Because that is at the very basis of co-operation. There must be only one vote. But you must make an exception if the society happens to hold shares in a co-operative society.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   CO-OPERATIVE CREDIT SOCIETIES.
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CON

Edmund Boyd Osler

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. OSLER.

All these objections should be removed. If the company is limited to the small field that it is intended to cover, that clause might pass. But if it is to apply to large companies permitted under this Bill, I think it is entirely objectionable. If

you say that the certificate issued bv the Finance Minister limits the capital to $20,000, and if evidence shows him that the business is extending satisfactorily, they may increase the capital to $40,000 or $50,000.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   CO-OPERATIVE CREDIT SOCIETIES.
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CON

Frederick Debartzch Monk

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MONK.

That is already the Act. The minister, in authorizing the company, may fix a limit beyond which it cannot go. But if my hon. friend wishes to fix it at $20,000 I am willing.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   CO-OPERATIVE CREDIT SOCIETIES.
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CON

Edmund Boyd Osler

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. OSLER.

If you do not fix a limit you allow companies to be organized in Montreal or Toronto with an unlimited capitalization.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   CO-OPERATIVE CREDIT SOCIETIES.
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CON

Frederick Debartzch Monk

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MONK.

What this clause consecrates is a principle universally admitted, that there must be one vote and no proxy. We have reserved a couple of clauses which will enable us to limit the capitalization.

ance Minister to extend the privileges of these companies?

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   CO-OPERATIVE CREDIT SOCIETIES.
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LIB

Henry Horton Miller

Liberal

Mr. MILLER.

The hon. member has been arguing all the way through that this will involve only small transactions and that no large sums wall be risked.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   CO-OPERATIVE CREDIT SOCIETIES.
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CON

Frederick Debartzch Monk

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MONK.

If my hon. friend has read anything with respect to the development of these societies in Europe he will know that there has been an accumulation of a hundred million francs in some cases.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   CO-OPERATIVE CREDIT SOCIETIES.
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LIB

Henry Horton Miller

Liberal

Mr. MILLER.

I have read a good deal and I have listened a good deal. I have listened to the claim set forth that it will only be a business of small transactions. I have listened to the hon. gentleman himself say that in Milan and elsewhere the transactions went into millions. He cannot argue one way one time and another way another; he cannot blow hot and cold.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   CO-OPERATIVE CREDIT SOCIETIES.
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LIB

George Gerald King

Liberal

Mr. KING.

The objection of the hon. member for West Toronto (Mr. Osier) is fully met by the provision which requires the minister to approve of the rules, and among the rules is one stating the maximum number of shares which shall be held by a member, the maximum amount received by a society on deposit, and the maximum amount which may be received from or loaned to a member. [DOT]

On section 27, Register of members or shares.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   CO-OPERATIVE CREDIT SOCIETIES.
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CON

Edmund Boyd Osler

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. OSLER.

What is the meaning of the words ' or agreed to be considered as paid on any such shares '?

Mr. MONK moved that the words ' or agreed to be considered as paid on any such shares ' in the seventh and eighth lines be struck out.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   CO-OPERATIVE CREDIT SOCIETIES.
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CON

Edmund Boyd Osler

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. OSLER.

If the intention is to confine the work to small places, why not put in a limit of $20,000? That would prevent the organization of any larger company.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   CO-OPERATIVE CREDIT SOCIETIES.
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LIB

George Gerald King

Liberal

Mr. KING.

The minister can always refuse to incorporate a company and'limit the scope of its operations, the Act gives him that power.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   CO-OPERATIVE CREDIT SOCIETIES.
Permalink
LIB

Edward Walter Nesbitt

Liberal

Mr. NESBITT.

Is it the intention of the promoter that the society shall have more than one vote?

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   CO-OPERATIVE CREDIT SOCIETIES.
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CON

Frederick Debartzch Monk

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MONK.

The society has but one vote, but the society votes by proxy.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   CO-OPERATIVE CREDIT SOCIETIES.
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CON

Edmund Boyd Osler

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. OSLER.

If it is accepted that the capital be limited in the first issue to $20,000, I am willing to let the clause pass.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   CO-OPERATIVE CREDIT SOCIETIES.
Permalink
CON

Frederick Debartzch Monk

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MONK.

I think it should be left to the ^ minister, as suggested under the observation of the Minister of Labour. When the Finance Minister grants existence to a society, he fixes the limit beyond which it cannot go. Why should we not leave him that discretion? Why should we say that these few poor people should be limited to $20,000, although their affairs may be prospering, and that they should not go beyond $20,000, as rich people may? Why should we not treat poor people as well as rich people? In Milan, Italy, banking societies have raised their funds to millions, by dmt of perseverance and care. Why should we not leave discretion to the Fin-

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   CO-OPERATIVE CREDIT SOCIETIES.
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CON

Edmund Boyd Osler

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. OSLER.

Section as amended agreed to.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   CO-OPERATIVE CREDIT SOCIETIES.
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December 14, 1910