December 13, 1910


Year. Value. 1903 $2,109,380 1909 707,000


EXPORTS OF BUTTER.


Year. Value. 1903 $7,086,000 1909 1,087,000 From these figures it will be seen that as the minister said this afternoon, our export of butter is getting very close to the vanishing point. Then, let us look at our exports of cattle:-


EXPORTS OF CATTLE.


Year. Value. 1906 $11,600,000 1907 10,900,000 1909 9,300,000 Here we have a gradual decrease all the way down the line. Last year we shipped 94,314 head of cattle from Canada, and this year we only shipped 72,555 head, or a decrease of 21,759 head in one year. What is the matter; what is wrong with the trade of this country? The Minister of Agriculture says the decrease is accounted for by the increase in home consumption, but Australia and the Argentine republic are expanding just as fast as Canada, and yet the official records of these countries show that instead of the exports of these countries going down year after year, as our exports are, they are growing every year. I would like to ask the Minister of Agriculture if home consumption is decreasing the exports of the farm products of this country, why does not the increased home consumption also decrease the exports of the manufactured products of Canada which are constantly increasing. Well, Sir, the reason to my', mind for the existence of such a condition in Canada simply is that the government is allowing the mergers, the combines, the banks, the loan companies, the insurance companies, the manufacturers, the grain men, and the railway companies, to eat the very life's blood out of the people and to drive them out of the business of raising agricultural products. Tomorrow the farmers from western Canada and from eastern Canada as well will be in Ottawa; their motto is: Equal rights to all and special privileges to none, and what they are coming here to preach to this government is that the combines and the mergers and all the rest of it have thriven under this government as never before in this country. The right h-on. First Minister was in western Canada during the past summer, and while there, he was told some pretty plain things. Some of the people went so far as to read to him some of the old speeches he had made in 1894, when he was out there the last time before, and it was not very good medicine for the Prime Minister to have to swallow after sixteen years had passed away. The promises lie had made to the people of western Canada during that last trip he had forgotten, or at least he had not carried out, and he certainly did not like to hear them read to him 'the second time. After hearing all that these men had to say to him in western Canada, he invited them to come here; and if he were in his place, I would like to aisk him, what does he expect them to say to him on Friday, when they arrive, that they have not already said to him on his tour in western Canada, during the last summer? They have said to him everything ithat was possible for one man to say to another. They talked very plainly and told him just what they meant and what they expected; but he asked them to come here. What does he expect them to say to him when they arrive, that they did not say in western Canada? Or was it only a bluff that the old man was trying to work on the farmers of western Canada? I am rather inclined to think it was. But the farmers of western Canada have called the bluff, and they are coming here good and strong; -and I want to say, Mr. Speaker, 'that they are on no fool's errand -they mean business. The hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Clark), told us the other night about the great crowds who went to hear the Prime Minister when he was in western Canada, -and the great reception that he got at every point; but my hon. friend forgot to tell us how disappointed those old supporters of his went away from the meetings. The pleasant smile was there, the smooth speech was there, but the substance which the western farmer wanted, was not there at all. There was no light held out to the western farmer in any speech which the Prime Minister made from one end of the western provinces to the -other. You talk about the Chinese Empire waking up, Mr. Speaker. Why, it is not a patch to the way in which the farmers of western Canada are waking up on this occasion. I want to tell the Prime Minister that if he does not awake to the responsibilities which rest upon him at the present time, the western farmers who are coming heTe, will make him and his government give up their places to a better set of men.


LIB

Malcolm Smith Schell

Liberal

Mr. M. S. SCHELL. (South Oxford).

Mr. .Speaker, we all agree as to the importance of the -subject that has been introduced by the hon. member for East Grey (Mr. Sproule), and we are all ready to join with him in urging upon the government at all times any efforts that may be necessary for the promotion of the agricultural interests of the Dominion of Canada. The Minister of Agriculture and the government have accomplished a great deal. I do not think they pretend that they have accomplished all that they can do, or that they propose to do. The hon. member for East Grey has proposed in the resolution that the agricultural, horticultural and animal industries of Canada will be -greatly benefited by the establishment of abattoirs. He enlarged somewhat on the position of the province of Alberta, especially as a stock-raising province, and deplored the condition of the sheep and cattle industries of that province, contending that it was not producing any considerable quantity in proportion to its facilities to its possibilities aind its population. He went on to make comparisons with Australia and with Montana-very unfair comparisons, I think; because any one who understands the conditions of agriculture in either Montana or Australia would not for a moment, make a comparison between those countries and Alberta. After con-

vlncing 'himself that there were very few sheep or cattle raised in Alberta, he concluded that thiis government should at once establish abattoirs in that province to take care of the cattle -and sheep which it is not raising, a very illogical and unsound position. I, for one, am not prepared to support any proposition for the expenditure of $8,000,000 or $10,000,000 or $15,000,000, as he intimated he would be willing to spend for the establishment of abattoirs under government supervision. In the first place, I am -sure that the eastern part of the Dominion of Canada is not suffering for abattoirs, and I am -equally sure that there -is no ground for supposing that the province of Alberta is needing abattoirs, because it has not the cattle nor the sheep to slaughter continuously if it had them. An abattoir will only pay when you have a supply of cattle or sheep or hogs, a-s the case may be, that will enable -the operators to run them continuously. He knows perfectly well that cattle are not being fed during tire winter months in Alberta, and consequently, even if the cattle industry were fostered to a considerable extent, and the people were raising enough -cattl-e to warrant the establishment of an abattoir, their present system of feeding these cattle would not justify the establishment of such an institution. The government of Alberta made very careful inquiry into this question, and concluded that it would not pay them as a government to tak-e this matter in hand, and I believe they were wise and sound in their conclusion." If there is a chance to make money in the -establishment of any business, I believe there is enough capital in the Domlnii-on -of Canada seeking investment to undertake the establishment of -such a business. We have men of large capital who are engaged in the handling of stock, in the killing and curing of meat, wh-o would be quite" willing to undertake thi-s tou-sin-e-ss if they saw that it would pay them to do so.

Coming to the eastern section of the province of Ontario, my hon. friend from Dundas (Mr. Broder) deplored the lessening in the number of cows kept in that province. It is true he admitted that a very severe drought which we had in the eastern part of the province accounted in a measure for the depletion of its herds, and I am not prepared to say that in this he was not right. I have no quarrel whatever with him on that point, and I do not think it bears upon the resolution, but I want to take exception to the conclusion he drew that we are not producing as much cheese, butter and milk in the province of Ontario to-day as we did formerly. Whatever the west may be doing, whether the farmers there are raising as many cattle or sheep as formerly or not, I do not think bears directly on the question before the House, but I assert with all assurance that Mr. M. S. SCHELL.

there is more cheese, butter and milk produced in Ontario to-day than at any period in its history. I have before me a statement made by the secretary of the Western Dairymen's Association recently, in which he gave the figures of the production of cheese and butter this year. He says that this year's cheese output will exceed that of 1909, which w-as 661 tons greater than in 1908. Out of 189 factories, 105 reported an increase. The total output of creamery butter in western Ontario in 1910 was 9,552,000 lbs., an increase of 1,602,000 over 1909, a very large increase for the western half of the province. Now, the eastern part of the province may not have made a like increase, but I believe that if you had the figures you would find that the product which has gone through our factories is larger this year than ever. In addition, we find that our farmers have been exporting cream to the United States' to an extent equivalent to nearly 2,000 boxes of cheese in a year. In addition we have very large milk condensing factories lately established in Ontario. We have one in the town of Ingersoll, which will take in from 90,000 to 100,000 lbs. of milk on an average, but which, in the midsummer, takes in a great deal more than that. We have another large one in Tillsonburg, in the county of Oxford, and there is -also one at Aylmer, in the -county of Elgin, which adjoins Oxford county, which also utilizes a large quantity of milk for condensing purposes. If all these items were taken into consideration it would be found beyond doubt that our dairy production is considerably larger than it has been in former years.

You h-ave been given statements, Sir, showing that the increased home consumption accounts for the lessening of the amount exported, and n-o one will take exception to the figures presented to this House. They may take exception to a certain extent, but every one must admit that, as compared with 1903, which was the banner year in our cheese exports, we have one and a half million more people to feed, so that even if they only consumed $8 or $10 of dairy products per -capita in a year that of itself would mean sufficient, if it were taken into account, to make up a larger amount of exports.

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CON

Thomas Simpson Sproule

Conservative (1867-1942)

Air. SPROULE.

Do these million and a half not raise enough to feed themselves?

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LIB

Malcolm Smith Schell

Liberal

Mr. SCHELL.

They have largely gone to the western provinces and my hon. friend knows that in the west about 99 per cent have gone into grain raising almost exclusively. That was shown by my hon. friend from Pincher Creek (Mr. Herron) when he stated that he knew of many farmers producing 20,000 bushels of wheat who had only 5 or 8 head of cattle. The very fact of this great increase in our popu-

lation directing attention almost exclusively to grain raising and not producing an equivalent proportion of stock, as compared to the rest of the Dominion, answers my hon. friend's question. That- is not all. The increased development of our manufacturing industries, brought about bv the general prosperity and development of our resources, has caused a verv considerable growth of consuming population in the older provinces. Take the city of Montreal, with a population to-day of half a million; take Toronto, with a population of 350,000 in each of these cities the population has almost doubled in the last 8 or 9 years- take the cities of Hamilton, Brantford, Berlin and other manufacturing towns of Ontario, the people living there have to be fed, and where are they to get their extra supplies? The west cannot supply them, because they are not devoting their energies to the production of meat products and therefore it is the provinces of Ontario and Quebec which have to produce these meat products, and this accounts for the export from these provinces diminishing. The unsoundness of the arguments of hon. gentlemen opposite must be apparent to the most casual observer if he looks into the facts honestly and fairly. How are the million, or very nearly so, in our cities to be fed except wTith the products from the farms of Ontario and Quebec? No one will deny that the condition of the people to-day is better than it ever was before; no one will deny that their purchasing power has increased about 100 per cent; no one will deny that the labouring man gets $2 a day where he used to get $1. Instead ftf buying a pint of milk, he buys a quart; instead of buying a pound of butter or cheese, he buys two pounds, and in making that statement I speak from personal knowledge. I have labouring men (in my mind), and I know that to-day they aTe consuming twice the quantities of dairy products that they did even six or eight years ago. These are facts that stand out and have to be met. Any man who will consider for a moment must admit that the reason why we are not exporting in the same ratio as before is to be found in the conditions to which I refer.

Now, I wish to deal briefly with one statement of the hon. member for Lisgar (Mr. Sharpe). He seemed to take exception to the commission that the Minister of Agriculture sent to Europe to inquire into the hog industry. In one breath these gentlemen complain that the Minister of Agriculture is not spending enough money to promote the interests of agriculture, and in the next they complain about the money that is spent. Here was a commission composed of the brightest, clearest-headed, most capable men engaged in the production and handling of our hog products in the province of Ontario. That

the hon. gentleman should say that it was a waste of money and a mistake on the part of the minister to send these men to Europe to inquire into the markets and conditions there is a surprising fact to me. He asks why the minister did not send them to Australia, to the Argentine, and to the United States to inquire into the cold storage systems of these countries. The hon. gentleman has evidently not oeen keeping himself posted, or he would know that we have a better system of cold storage than exists in any of these countries. There is no difficulty in proving that. In the first place, take Australia and New Zealand. Their system of cold storage is simply one for carrying frozen or chilled meat, a very simple plan of cold storage installation. And the same applies to the Argentine. As to the United States, they are not in it with the Dominion of Canada. They have not a system nearly as well worked out, or under equally good supervision, or as well equipped to meet the requirements, as the system that we have established. Whether it is in transportation by car or in transportation by steamship, we are in an infinitely superior position to the United States or either of the other countries to which the hon. gentleman refers. We find that the American shippers are using our cold storage system between Montreal and Europe in preference to the system between New York or Boston and British ports. They send their tender fruits by our route. Are'they paying the same rate of freight? No, they are paying a considerably higher rate of freight to send these goods by-Montreal than would be necessary to send them by New York or Boston. Do you find the Canadian shippers of the Niagara peninsula shipping by New York? Not at all. They could ship by New York or Boston at a rate of threepence per barrel of apples cheaper than by Montreal, and other products in the'same proportion, but our shippers use our own ports. Late in the season, when the supply of apples is very large and the wreather becomes cool, they do sometimes ship by Boston. But they are not using New York practically at all. We find also that our iced car service^ is proving of immense value and it is being very largely used by our shippers. In 1909 iceing charges of $5 a car were paid on 720 cars by the government, this covering all the cars that were applied for by shippers. In connection with the fruit car service, these charges were paid on 153 cars. This service, as hon. members know, is available during the warmer months, and the figures give us a clear idea of the appreciation with -which the service is regarded by producers. Not onlv are these cars supplied, but the government has established routes, so that the people throughout the various parts of the Dominion are enabled to take advan-

tage of the service. A car may start at any station and the government have provided that portions of cars may be picked up at different stations, and, in that way, the country is (well served. The Canadian Pacific railway have, for instance, 24 routes, the Grand Trunk 20, the Canadian Northern 6, the Central Vermont 5, the Intercolonial 3, the Quebec Central 2, and the Quebec, Montreal and Southern 2, the Napierville Junction 1, the Pere Marquette 1-a total of 64. Of course, as soon as the shipments fall off, the service is discontinued.

In connection also with the cold storage facilities that are afforded in transporting our goods to European ports, I want to say that the government has taken a very advanced position. In providing for inspectors at ports, both on this side and at the ports of embarkation in Europe, I think the government has gone further than any other government of which I am aware of. These inspectors are appointed for the purpose of taking the temperatures of the apartments on ship board in which the products are placed. Not only are the cars supplied with ice for perishable products, but a check is provided on the manner in which the steamship' companies handle the goods, to see that, they are properly unloaded from the cars, properly cared for in the sheds, and pro-, perly loaded on the steamships. Every possible care is taken to insure that these! goods shall arrive in the English market in the best possible condition.

Now, I have said that we have the best system of cold storage on our steamships1 that exists in any country. The government have taken hold of this matter in? a very intelligent and progressive spirit.! This system has been in vogue, not only ioi the last two or three years, but ever since the government came into power in, 1896. ^ At that time there was not a single chemical refrigerator plant on any steam-, ship plying between Canadian and European ports. Prior to 1896, I am willing to admit that ice was used to some extent, but a chemical refrigerator service was not installed until after that date. This government entered into contracts with steamship companies to provide this ser-, vice. Several steamships were fitted up, and after a contract lasting three years, the service was demonstrated to be of such value that the. government did not find it necessary to continue a subsidy to the steamships in order to secure the installation of this service, but the companies, m their own interest, fitted it up at their own expense. The consequence is that every steamship, I believe, that carries our products from Canadian ports to Europe, has this service installed.

I have here some figures that may be of

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LIB

Malcolm Smith Schell

Liberal

Mr. SCHELL.

interest in connection with this subject. I find that there are thirteen steamers, carrying our products to Liverpool; three of them belong to the Allan Line, running between Montreal and Liverpool. There is the White Star Dominion Line, with some five or six steamers plying between Montreal and Liverpool. There is the Canadian Pacific Railway Line, of which there are three steamers operating between those ports. During the last season all these steamers made seventy-six sailings. They have a combined cold storage capacity of 2,067,510 cubic feet. There are eight steamers of the Donaldson Line and the Allan Line going to London. Those eight steamers made fifty-seven sailings, and they had a combined cold storage capacity of 984,850 cubic feet. There are eight steamers going to Glasgow. They made fifty-three sailings, and have a combined cold storage capacity of 939,422 cubic feet. There are six steamers going to Bristol, which made twenty-eight sailings during the season. They have a cold storage capacity of 866,060 cubic feet. To South Africa there are four steamers operating, which made six sailings last year, with a cold storage capacity of 269,294 cubic feet. There was also one steamer to Manchester, five sailings, with a cold storage space of 15,000 cubic feet. There is also cool storage provided for, this costs less than cold storage. To Liverpool there is a cool storage capacity of 281,424 cubic feet; to London, of 2,601,459 cubic feet; to Bristol, of 652,435 cubic feet. There is a total cold storage capacity of 5,142,139 cubic feet, and a total cool storage capacity of 2,535,318 cubic feet. The fact of the matter is that not only are the steamships thus equipped, not only have we the best possible system that is known to-day in any country, and better than is used in any other country, but this system is under government supervision and government inspection, and to a certain extent under government control, at least to the extent that the steamship companies allow the inspectors every opportunity to see whether the service on the ship is up to date, and affords all the facilities that are expected of it. In order to demonstrate the actual condition of the cold storage service, the government have installed what are known as thermograph records, which records are absolutely correct. These are placed on the steamer at Montreal, and make automatic markings of the temperature at all times. They are put in storage, put under lock and key at Montreal, and they cannot be tampered with during the voyage. The inspectors at Liverpool or London or Bristol or Glasgow, for there are inspectors at all these points, go to the steamshiDS when they arrive, take out these thermograph records and make a re-

port thereon. Not only is the report kept at this end, but it is kept at the other end of the route. These reports are returned to the Department of Agriculture and are here on file for the examination of any member of the House or any person who would take the trouble or is sufficiently interested to inquire into this question. I have here a sheet which represents the record for one vessel. I shall not read from it at length, but I wish to show from it the completeness of the record in reference to articles of commerce that are stored in the holds in which these are placed. The record shows the condition in which the goods arrived at the point of export, the chamber in which they were stored in the vessel, whether it was cold storage or cool storage or ordinary storage, showing even the exact place in the vessel in which the goods were stored.

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?

An hon. MEMBER.

Read it.

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LIB

Malcolm Smith Schell

Liberal

Mr. SCHELL.

If you wish to read it you can have it to read at your leisure. I shall not detain the House at any length, but I shall read for your satisfaction if you are anxious to know something. This report is for the ' Lakonia ' of the Donaldson Line sailing Monday, October 31, 1910. It gives a description of the vessel and how it is equipped. Among the articles shipped we find 644 boxes and 527 half boxes of Canadian pears, also barrels and boxes and half boxes of United States pears, and some barrels of United States apples. That report says they were in good condition when they went on board. But here is a further report showing the thermograph record that was placed in the different compartments of this steamer. The number of the thermograph record is placed opposite the articles that were stored in the particular chamber, and from the record you can see just how the temperature was maintained while the goods were in transit. Here is a record of goods put in ordinary storage. An even temperature was maintained from the day the thermograph record was put in until the goods arrived in Glasgow. One day it ran down five or six degrees, then it went up again and ranged about 50 all the way through.

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CON

Arthur Cyril Boyce

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BOYCE.

Are these original records?

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LIB
CON

Arthur Cyril Boyce

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BOYCE.

Where did you obtain them?

Topic:   SUPPLY-THE LIVE STOCK INDUSTRY.
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LIB

Malcolm Smith Schell

Liberal

Mr. SCHELL.

I got them from the Department of Agriculture, and if the hon. gentleman wishes for some he can go and get five or six hundred or more; they are on file and he can examine them to his own satisfaction.

Here is another record of ordinary storage on this steamer. The thermograph was

placed October 19, in a steamer sailing the 21st, arriving the 31st. This record was placed in No. 5 between decks with apples in ordinary storage. The temperature was about 54 and it did not vary two degrees in all the journey between Montreal and Glasgow. Here is a full report giving the condition, the most ample report that you can imagine, which the inspectors prepare and forward to the department for their information as to whether the goods are being properly cared for-and it must be remembered that these records are accessible to the shipper, who of course is anxious to know whether his goods are being properly taken care of, especially if he is paying for cold storage. Even in ordinary storage he is glad to know what the temperature is.

Here is a record for the cold storage chambers in the same steamer. This one was placed with apples and pears, tender fruits, for which the shippers deemed it advisable to pay the extra cost of cold storage. Any one who knows anything about the export of tender fruits is aware that in order to prevent decay and to ensure their landing in sound condition, just as they left the port of shipment, it is necessary to keep them at a very moderate temperature, and at the same time it is important that the temperature does not go down below 32 degrees, because if it goes down below 32, the apples, pears or other fruits will be frozen, they will at least be chilled and will deteriorate much more speedily as soon as they are taken out of the chamber on the other side; even if they were not absolutely frozen they would soon go off in condition and be of very, little value. The necessity of maintaining an even temperature is such that the steamship companies are held responsible; if the temperature goes below 32, or a safe degree of temperature, they have to stand the loss. How could a shipper know whether a steamship company handled his goods properly or not, if he had not some check? There is no such check on any steamer going from New York or Boston; no other country has a similar service. What was the result? From Canada this year we have shipped successfully the ten-derest fruits that we did not think were capable of being handled with profit to the English market. Peaches were shipped from the Niagara district in boxes of 6 pounds, 20 peaches to a box, and sold at 80c. net back to the shipper in the Niagara peninsula, 4c. apiece for our peaches. This was an experiment, yet our friends say the Department or the Minister of Agriculture is not hunting for new markets. What do you want better than that? Our pears are the same, they are being handled and sold in the European markets with a profit; we can ship the tendarest fruits 1 that we can handle in our Canadian mar-

kets with profit and success to the European markets, with almost equal assurance that they will land in sound condition.

I said it was necessary to maintain an even temperature. I have here the record of a thermograph placed with apples and pears. Almost immediately after the steamer left Montreal the temperature was below 40; it starts just a little above 40, because you lunderstand that w/hen the doors are opened putting in the goods, the temperature rises and it takes a little time to get the temperature down to the normal, but when the doors are closed and the system has been put in complete operation, we find that the temperature runs below 40 and it does not vary 2 degrees in all the transit between Montreal and Glasgow. Here is another record of a thermograph placed with [DOT] apples and pears. It has maintained an even temperature a little higher, hut still below 40. and it is considered that anything between 40 and 34 is quite safe and suitable.

Here is another record below 40, it ranges from 39 to 38; on only one day was it just above 40. The temperature is so even, that the system is as nearly absolutely perfect as any system of cold storage can be. I wish to further emphasize the fact that the Americans are using our cold storage in preference to that on steamships from their own ports, and I shall give a few figures in connection with the quantity of goods exported in cold storage.

Shipments of perishable products in cold storage and cooled air from the port of Montreal, season 1909 (U.S.A. products included.)

In Cold In Cooled

Storage. Air.

Apples (bbls.) Canadian.. .. 5,138 2,447

Apples (boxes) Canadian.. .. 3,304

Butter (pkgs.) Canadian.. .. 39,218 79

Cheese (boxes) Canadian 268,470

Meats (boxes) Canadian.. .. 10,906 10,689

Meats (boxes) U.S.A 43,107 3,689

Lard (pkgs.) U.S.A 16,026

Tender fruits (boxes) Cana-

Tender fruits (boxes)U.S.A.. 27,274 Beef (quarters) Canadian... 341

In explanation of these figures, I may point out that they do not use cold storage to any extent for the exportation of cheese because it is not a very perishable article, and if cheese is maintained in the temperature provided bv the cooled air service it is considered by exporters quite ample, and as the rates are lower they largely use the cooled air service. It will be noted that there were, therefore, four times as many boxes of American meats as of Canadian meats in the cold storage chambers. There was no export of Canadian lard because we used all the lard we produced at home.

It will also be seen from these figures Mr. SCHELL.

that nearly three times as many boxes of tender fruits came from the United States as were forwarded gy Canadian shippers. If any of our friends are still skeptical about our service being the best- service provided on this or any other continent they can be supplied with any amount of evidence similar to this, and I submit no better evidence can be found. I have before me a bundle of records from other steamers, and they are open for examination by any lion, gentleman wrho wishes to examine them. Now, Mr. Speaker, I do not propose to take up much time in discussing this question, because the resolution has a practical bearing on the question of cold storage, and I suppose that is what we are called to vote on. While many hon. gentlemen have expressed their appreciation of anything that may have been done for the farmers of Canada along educational lines, I want to say that there is no one more appreciative of this work than I am, or who is more anxious that the work of education in agriculture on the broadest possible lines should be continued, not only by the Dominion Minister of Agriculture, who has done a good deal in that connection, but by the authorities of the provinces as weil. I might mention something that has been done by our Minister of Agriculture for the benefit of the apple growing industry of this country. Some 7 or 8 years ago he sent Mr. McNeill to the county of Oxford to conduct experimental work in spraying our orchards, and Mr. McNeill was assisted by Mr. Harris, of Ingersoll, who bad had considerable experience in that particular work. As a result of the efforts of these two' gentlemen an association was formed at Burgessville, in the county of Oxford, which has been carrying out the work, the foundation of which was laid by Messrs. McNeill and Harris. This association has been producing thousands of barrels of apples, and this year, while the crop has been a comparative failure in many parts of Ontario, the members of the association have had a large crop and have been able to sell their pack at very remunerative prices. Orchards that were not sprayed were as a rule onlv poor, but this association had for sale 4,000 barrels of apples of such high quality that they commanded $3 per barrel on board the car. Mr. Harris has carried on this work on his own account; he has been renting orchards, spraying the trees and taking care of them, and he also had 4,000 barrels of apples which he sold at $3 per barrel on hoard the cars to a former member of this House for shipment to the northwest. This excellent educative work has not been confined simply to the county of Oxford. Not only the association to which I haye referred, but individual farmers, recognizing the benefits which accrue from the proper

care of their orchards, have been enabled to double their crop, and on account of the better quality of the fruit they have been able to double the price per barrel of their apples. As a result of this educative work of the Minister of Agriculture the quantity of fruit produced has increased 100 or 200 per cent, and the quality is so improved that far better prices are obtained. I am sorry that more farmers in the province of Ontario and in the Dominion at large do not properly appreciate what may be accomplished in this direction. I am closely identified with this work, not only as a grower, but as a shipper and handler of fruit; I know what I am talking about, and I say that here is a field for intelligent educative work that means thousands and thousands of dollars of increased revenue to the Dominion of Canada, if that work is conducted on intelligent lines.

Now, I might mention here that there are on the Agricultural Committee of this House many members who profess great consideration for the agricultural interests, but when a meeting of the committee is called a bare dozen members present themselves to hear the addresses delivered to that committee towards the close of the session. These gentlemen profess to be very anxious to serve the farmers, but judging by their attendance at that committee they are not as sincere as they profess to be in advancing the agricultural interests of the Dominion. I may say that a gentleman from the county of Norfolk has promised me that he will appear before the committee to give not only his personal experience but the result of the work carried on in the county of Norfolk in connection with an association of farmers there who are intelligently and extensively following the proper system of spraying and caring for their orchards. When he comes before that committee, I venture to say that every member of it will feel that he has missed something if he does not attend and hear what is being done in the county of Norfolk in this connection. There is wide room for educational work along various lines, and 1 would not for a moment advocate the spending of less money. I believe that the money that has been expended by the Minister of Agriculture has resulted in increased revenue to the Dominion by a hundredfold or a thousandfold. The Department of Agriculture is one which is absolutely above suspicion as to a single dollar ever having been misappropriated in any direction; a department has never be.en better or more intelligently administered; a department that will bear the closest scrutiny by any member of this House, no matter what phase of the subject he may undertake to criticise; a department which you can go through from one end to the other, and

I challenge you to say that you have seen any negligence in its administration. Thousands and millions of dollars are expended in this Dominion for various purposes that receive the approval of the public at large, although they do not return in wealth to the country one tithe of what the money does that is being expended from time to time by the Department of Agriculture; and if any more money can be expended in the interests of agriculture I am in favour of spending it, whether it is $1,000 or $100,000, or even $1,000,000. I know that there is a limit to the amount of money available, and no minister can spend all he would like to spend. I dare say the Minister of Agriculture could spend more money if he had it. Any expenditure in the line of educative work, of demonstration, of experimental work that has for its object the promotion of the agricultural interests of the Dominion of Canada will receive my hearty support at all times ; but a resolution drawn up as this one is with the skill of a lawyer in a most plausible way, on its face not honest in its criticism and its statement of the facts, is one which I cannot see my way to support.

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CON

Glenlyon Campbell

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. GLEN. L. CAMPBELL (Dauphin).

Mr. Speaker, I feel that the ground has been so well covered that I should not trespass to any great extent on the good nature of the House, but being a farmer and a cattleman from the west, and a representative of that class, I deem it my duty to rise and voice their sentiments. In this connection I find it strange that all the Liberal members from the west, representing the same interests that I do in that western country, have been silent in this debate. The farmers whom these Liberal members represent will be represented here in a day or two by men chosen by the farmers of the northwestern provinces to come here and ask from this government exactly what is embodied in this resolution; and I fancy that these Liberal members will have a hard question to answer when they are asked by those representatives of the farmers why they did not speak in favour of what the farmers are demanding from this government. The hon. member for South Oxford (Mr. Schell), in referring to this question of abattoirs and cold storage warehouses, said that it was a matter which the local governments of the various provinces could take up very much better than the Dominion government, on the ground that they were nearer the points concerned and knew more about the local conditions. Surely, the hon. member forgot that the western provinces asked for the control of their lands, their timber and their fisheries, and that it was denied to them by this government. That was the

one point in his address that I thought worth referring to. I listened with considerable surprise to our very voluable Minister of Agriculture when he was detailing to us what he had done in the interest of the farmers and spoke of the growth of the industry of agriculture in all its branches. I wondered if he remembered a little speech which he made here, and which is recorded in 'Hansard, when, speaking of these same farmers, he told this House that the reason they were not more successful and that agriculture in Canada was not on a better plane, was that these farmers were indifferent, lazy, careless and slip-shod in their methods. Yet the hon. minister sits there and smiles. I think that as a farmer I could almost demand an apology for such language. As a representative of farmers I feel that he owes it to me and my class. The hon. minister referred to the cold storage system as being very efficient at present as far as it goes. Well, it may be as far as it goes, but the great complaint we make is that it does not go far enough. In fact it does not go any distance and is almost at a vanishing point.

In speaking of the sheep industry, the Minister of Agriculture said that sheep require a larger range than other stock. When he makes that statement, he displays a lack of knowledge rather surprising in one holding his position, for it is well known among farmers that sheep will live where nothing else will. They are close feeding animals and the reason why they were not allowed to be kept on the great western ranges was because they ate the grass down too close for other stock to live upon. The hon. minister said that sheep were a class of domestic animals that do not pay. Again he is at fault because there is no class which multiplies so rapidly and pays so well. That will not be denied by any one at all conversant with the subject. In drawing a comparison between the sheep industry in Alberta and Montana, he said that the industry in Montana was a forced one and that he did not believe in forced industry. Well, when I heard that statement I could not help thinking of the experiments made by the hon. gentleman with squirt guns for the fattening of hens. That I fancy might well be called a forced industry, and yet it was one on which the hon. gentleman was wont to wax enthusiastic.

Let me now take up a few minutes in referring to the cattle industry of the west. In 1906 or 1905, being a farmer myself, knowing the conditions of the cattle industry, I got up in the local House and drew the attention of the government to the fact that that industry was dying because a combine had been formed which was eating the life out of it. I pointed Mr. CAMPBELL.

out that the buyers had formed a combine and that the farmers could not get for their steers as much as they actually cost. The government, on my representations, appointed a joint commission with the government of the province of Alberta, the province of Saskatchewan having refused to come in. That joint commission took evidence from all sources-from farmers, railway companies, dealers of all kinds, large and small, and made a report to the effect that the industry was cramped owing to the existence of a semi-monopoly. They called it a semi-monopoly because they could not actually prove that it was really a monopoly, but in my opinion it was a monopoly and a combine which was grinding the farmers so that they could not make a living by raising stock. The commission reported that it was necessary, if the governments of Alberta and Manitoba desired to keep alive that great industry, that something should be done. The commission pointed out that these governments should aid in some way the building of abattoirs and the establishment of union stock yards, thus making the handling of stock as cheap as possible, and creating an open market. The Manitoban government, on the finding of that commission, voted a certain amount for the purpose of aiding any company which would build an abattoir, and give the government control of the rates. However, no company took hold of the venture, and lately again the Manitoba government appointed a commission to go further into the matter together with the town of St. Boniface, and possibly Winnipeg, and the Manitoba government intends in the near future to assist liberally the building of public abattoirs and the establishment of a free market where a man can sell his stock to advantage. Such conditions do not exist now, but will I hope in the near future. In Manitoba practically, until within the last year, the condition was such that many farmers sacrificed their herds of cattle, sold them off and killed their calves, so as not to be at the expense of raising them. That was a most unfortunate condition of things. All the industry required was a little fostering, and all we ask the Minister of Agriculture is to give it some little of his care, and get some money out of the public treasury to assist the particular class he represents. In many cases we make large expenditures which are not justified, but never yet have I found fault with any reasonable expenditure for the benefit of the people. The Minister of Agriculture is a representative of the farming community, on that community he spends $700,000, whereas the Minister of Militia spends $7,000,000 for purposes of war. Are not our farmers of more importance than these gold-braided officials we see swaggering

around? Are they not more useful? They at least produce something. The Minister of Militia (Sir Frederick Borden) will say that he needs these $7,000,000 in order to get efficient service. But why not cut down our war expenditure, even if we thereby get a less efficient militia service,

' and spend the money in improving the condition of our farmers. Two years ago I was representing the Western Live Stock Shippers Association and went around the various stock yards in the United States- St. Paul, Minneapolis and Chicago-and then came down to Toronto and Montreal. A question I was asked to look into by the live stock shippers was the question of cold storage and the shipping of chilled beef to the old country. I found in Chicago that Swift & Co. were the only people that were shipping chilled meat. I could not get very close to their officials to find out how the business was doing, but I heard unofficially that their first experience was that the business was not a success. Later on, they sent to the old country their own representatives and opened shops all through the big centres and handled their own chilled meat. This plan proved a great success. I met Mr. Harris, of Toronto, head, at that time, of the Harris Abattoir Co. Mr. Harris had shipped some 250 head in four different shipments of chilled meat and had lost in the neighborhood of $25,000. I took down what he had to say about it, and I read from my report:

Unquestionably, it is the proper way, the only right way to handle our meat trade, as there is no bruised meat and no dead cattle, and freight charges are much less. But still I lost money. I found when I got my stuff over there to England, I was in the hands of Ali Baba and the forty thieves

I hope he was not referring to this government.

-only there were four hundred of them, and I was lucky to get off with the loss I mentioned. There is only one way to handle the chilled meat trade, and that is to establish shops to handle it in the old country, just as Swift & Co. are doing, and thus get rid of the robbers or make them work for you.

If a very wealthy man, head of a very wealthy firm, lost money in shipping under the conditions that are spoken of so highly by some of the speakers on the government side, the minister cannot expect the farmers of the west to take that chance themselves. And if the farmers of the west who know that the live stock industry must be fostered in order to keep up the fertility of the soil, desire that their money be spent in this way, it is surely not very much for us to ask the minister to meet their requirements in that regard. When he was speaking this afternoon he practically refused to give this help that we are asking for the

farmers. In his speech, he referred to some proposition made to him two years ago under which the government were to guarantee the bonds of a company that was to build a line of chilled meat storehouses. He said he did not believe it was a good thing for the government to' guarantee the bonds of companies if the companies were not ready to stand the loss themselves. I think that is the meaning of what he said, was it not?

Well, I take it, silence gives consent: I could hardly believe my ears when I heard that. My mind reverted to what1 happened on the St. Lawrence near Quebec-a bridge fell and six and a half millions of money guaranteed by this government went into the river. And the contractors got off scot free, and, I think, got a bonus for losing the bridge.

It is about time for this House to adjourn, and so I shall not speak at greater length. I would just point out to the minister that there is no class of people in Canada who have to work so hard for what they get, as the farmers. There is no class that has bothered this House of parliament less than the farmers have done, or have put up with more abuse even from the Minister of Agriculture. No class depends so much upon the interest of the land, and I do not think there is any class that has been hoodwinked so much by the ministry as the farmers. And when I speak of the ministry, I refer to this ministry, for they are past masters at the business of hoodwinking. Let me tell the minister, before sitting down, that he may goldbrick this House in this matter by stress of what may be called majorite bru-tale when it comes to a vote. But he will find in a day or two that five or six hundred farmers are here asking for the same as we are asking for. They are of all creeds, of many nationalities and of all parties in politics. He will not be able to goldbrick them; he will have to give them a straight answer. I would respectfully ask the members on the other side of this House to forget their partisan politics and vote in support of the interest of the farmers of this country.

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LIB

William Henry White

Liberal

Mr. W. H. WHITE. (Victoria, Alberta).

I do not intend, at this late hour, to take up muich of the time of the House. I am in perfect sympathy with the resolution of the hon. member for East Grey (Mr. Sproule); I had a resolution much along the same lines myself. I should have been glad to support this resolution had it been placed on the Order Paper in the ordinary way, and members given an opportunity to know when it might be brought oh and to make preparation to discuss it. I might go on to explain that there is a grievance in the western country so far as the cattle business is concerned, and to give some

information concerning it, and shoul.d have been glad to do so, had the resolution come on in the regular way. But, as the hon. Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Fisher), has pointed out, this is a want -of confidence motion, and therefore, I am sorry to say, I will have to vote against it.

House divided on amendment (Mr. Sproule).

YEAS:

Messieurs

Armstrong,

Arthurs,

Barker,

Barnard,

Beattie,

Best,

Blain,

Borden (Halifax), Boyce,

Bradbury,

Broder,

Burrell,

Campbell,

Chisholm (Huron), Cowan,

Crosby,

Crocket,

Currie (Simcoe), Daniel,

Doherty,

Donnelly,

Edwards,

Elson,

Fraser, .

Goodeve,

Haggart (Winnipeg), Henderson,

Herron,

J amoson,

Kidd,

Lalor,

Lor tie,

Macdonald,

McCall,

McCarthy,

Maddin,

Magrath,

Meighen,

Middlebro,

Monk,

Nantcl,

Northrup

Osier,

Owen,

Perley,

Reid (Grenville), 'Rhodes,

Roche,

Russell,

Schaffner,

Sexsmith.

Sharpe (Lisgar), Sharpe (Ontario), Smyth,

Sproule,

Stanfield,

Staples,

Stewart,

Taylor (New Westminster),

Thoburn,

Thornton.

Wallace,

White (Renfrew), Wilcox,

Wilson (Lennox and Addington) and Wright.-66.

NAYS:

Messieurs

Allard,

Allen,

Aylesworth,

Beland,

Bickerdike,

Black,

Borden

(Sir Frederick), Brown,

Bureau,

Carrier,

Car veil,

Cash,

Champagne,

Chew,

Chisholm (Antigonish) Chisholm (Inverness), Clark (Red Deer), Congdon,

Currie

(Prince Edward),

McGiverin,

McIntyre,

McKenzie,

McLean '(Huron), McMillan,

Major,

Marcile (Bagot), Martin (Wellington), Mayrand,

Meigs,

Michaud,

Miller,

Molloy,

Murphy,

Nesbitt,

Neely,

Oliver,

Papineau,

Pardee,

Parent,

Paterson,

Mr. WHITE (Victoria, Alta.)

Delisle,

Demers,

Devlin,

Dubeau,

Fisher,

Fortier,

Fowke,

Gauvreau,

Geoff rion,

Gervais,

Gilbert,

Girard,

Graham,

Harris,

Hartj%

Hodgins,

Hunt,

King,

Knowles,

Kyte,

Lachance,

Lafortune,

Lanetot (Laprairie-Napierville), Lanetot (Richelieu), Laurier (Sir Wilfrid), Law,

LeBlanc,

Loggie,

Lovell,

Low,

Macdonald,

MacNutt,

McAllister,

McCoig,

McColl,

McCraney,

Tickup,

Proulx,

Prowse,

Pugsley,

Rankin,

Reid (Restigouche), Richards,

Rivet,

Robb,

Rose (Middlesex), 1 Ross (Rimouski),,

Roy (Dorchester),

Roy (Montmagny), Rutan,

Savoie,

Schell,

Sealey,

Seguin,

Sinclair,

Smith (Middlesex), Smith (Nanaimo), Smith (Stormont), Talbot,

Templeman,

Tobin,

Todd,

Tolmie,

Turcotte (Nicolet), Turcotte (Quebec county), Turgeon,

Turriff.

Verville,

Warburton,

White

(Victoria, Alta.) and. Wilson (Laval).-111.

PAIRS:

Ministerial. Opposition.

Messieurs

Fielding,

Lemieux,

Brodeur,

Emmerson,

Gordon (Kent), Guthrie,

Clarke (Essex), Sperry,

Lapointe,

Gladu,

McLean (Sunbury), Martin (Regina), German,

Ecrement,

Douglas,

Beauparlant,

Stratton,

Martin (St. Mary's), Conmee,

Ethier,

Foster,

Porter,

Haggart (Lanark), Lake,

Taylor (Leeds), Clare,

Ames,

Crothers,

Lancaster,

Lennox,

Marshall,

Hughes,

Bristol,

Blondin,

Lewis,

Paquet,

Gordon (Nipissing), Worthington,

Price,

Forget,

Amendment negatived. Motion agreed to and House went into Committee of Supply-

Progress reported.

On motion of Sir Wilfrid Laurier, House adjourned at 12:30 a.m., Wednesday.

Wednesday, December 14, 1910.

Topic:   SUPPLY-THE LIVE STOCK INDUSTRY.
Subtopic:   EXPORTS OF CATTLE.
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December 13, 1910