March 14, 1910

?

Some hon. MEMBERS

Take it back.

Topic:   SUPPLY-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   IMMIGRATION ACT AMENDMENT.
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LIB

Frank Oliver (Minister of the Interior; Superintendent-General of Indian Affairs)

Liberal

Mr. OLIVER.

Then I certainly will take it back.

Topic:   SUPPLY-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   IMMIGRATION ACT AMENDMENT.
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CON

John Dowsley Reid

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. J. D. REID.

I object to the minister taking it back as applied to only one member

Topic:   SUPPLY-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   IMMIGRATION ACT AMENDMENT.
Permalink
?

Some hon. MEMBERS

Oh, oh.

Topic:   SUPPLY-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   IMMIGRATION ACT AMENDMENT.
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CON

John Dowsley Reid

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. J. D. REID.

1 am surprised that you as Chairman of this committee will allow the minister to apply that word to any member on this side of the House.

Topic:   SUPPLY-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   IMMIGRATION ACT AMENDMENT.
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LIB

Gilbert Howard McIntyre (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER.

I have risen to order, and the hon. member must resume his seat. While I will endeavour to do justice to every member of the House I cannot allow the hon. member to discuss the ruling at the present time.

Topic:   SUPPLY-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   IMMIGRATION ACT AMENDMENT.
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CON

John Dowsley Reid

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. J. D. REID.

Let me say that the hon. minister applied the word ' bully to a member of this House, and so far as your ruling, Sir, is concerned, I have a right to appeal, and I shall do so.

Topic:   SUPPLY-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   IMMIGRATION ACT AMENDMENT.
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LIB

Gilbert Howard McIntyre (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER.

The hon. gentleman who used the term * bully has withdrawn it. The hon. member for Frontenac raised the point that he was the one to whom that epithet was intended to apply, and the epithet having been withdrawn in regard to him, I did not understand that any other member was referred to, and the rules of the House do not protect any one who is not a member.

Topic:   SUPPLY-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   IMMIGRATION ACT AMENDMENT.
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LIB

William Cameron Edwards

Liberal

Mr. EDWARDS.

The Minister of the Interior (Mr. Oliver) said that if I thought he applied the word to me, thereby leaving the inference that he meant it to apply to more than myself, he withdrew it. I took it up so far as I was concerned, and other gentlemen have the same right.

Topic:   SUPPLY-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   IMMIGRATION ACT AMENDMENT.
Permalink
LIB

Frank Oliver (Minister of the Interior; Superintendent-General of Indian Affairs)

Liberal

Mr. OLIVER.

In order to ease the strain, I want to say that if any hon. gentleman considers that I applied the word to him, I beg to withdraw it and to say that I do not consider any of them bullies. I wish to say further that, so far as my attitude is concerned, I have always desired to be courteous to every hon. member and transact business with due regard to the dignity of the House and the respect due by one man to another, whether in the House or out of it. When the hon. member for Dauphin (Mr. Campbell) questioned me with regard to the Bill before six o'clock, I replied to him in the spirit in which, as I judged, he had asked the question. When he reverted to the matter after eight o'clock, he seemed to consider that I had attached some ill-meaning to the words, or intended to convey an insult to him, ai)d I could not understand what was in his mind. As far as I can judge, there must have been something in his mind that was not in mine, judging by the remarks of the hon. member for Macdonald (Mr. Staples); and while I would like every one to understand that I wish to treat every one with all courtesy, I would like also every one to understand that they can always get their change when they come to me. But I do want the hon. member for Dauphin (Mr. Campbell) to understand that I had no intention of conveying any slur upon him, either as a man or member of the House, or in any way, shape or manner.

Topic:   SUPPLY-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   IMMIGRATION ACT AMENDMENT.
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CON

Glenlyon Campbell

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CAMPBELL.

I think that what the Minister of the Interior says, though at a late date, covers the question; and if I was perhaps somewhat bitter in some words I used since the inception of this debate, I do him the same courtesy as he has done me, and beg to withdraw them in so far as they hurt his feelings. To go

on with this matter, before we pass clause; 1, I think -it would be desirable for the Minister of the Interior to tell us what proportion of good settlers there were among the Doukhobors. He has told us about some bad ones, those that are in asylums or in jail or dead, and I would like to have some idea what the proportion of good settlers was. -

Topic:   SUPPLY-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   IMMIGRATION ACT AMENDMENT.
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LIB

Frank Oliver (Minister of the Interior; Superintendent-General of Indian Affairs)

Liberal

Mr. OLIVER.

I have not the information at hand. There is, of course, a difference in degree even among the good settlers.

Topic:   SUPPLY-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   IMMIGRATION ACT AMENDMENT.
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CON

Glenlyon Campbell

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CAMPBELL.

I might make it perhaps a little easier for the minister to reply if I put it in this way. How many Doukhobors who settled in Saskatchewan and other parts have proved upon their homesteads and become decent, civilized citizens and good settlers?

Topic:   SUPPLY-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   IMMIGRATION ACT AMENDMENT.
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LIB

Frank Oliver (Minister of the Interior; Superintendent-General of Indian Affairs)

Liberal

Mr. OLIVER.

As the hon. gentleman now asks the question, it would amount to this: How many Doukhobors have left the community and become individual settlers? I cannot give the actual figures, but I think in the neighbourhood of one-quarter of the total number. Of those who remain in the community, while they are not to be classed as the most desirable settlers, I do not think that they are as good as those who work individually. They are industrious, thrifty, law-abiding and have added very considerable to the wealth of the country, and to that extent are good settlers, but I do not think that those who continue to live in community are as good as those who have gone out on their homesteads and proved up to them, as a certain proportion have done.

Topic:   SUPPLY-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   IMMIGRATION ACT AMENDMENT.
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CON

Glenlyon Campbell

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CAMPBELL.

We have been told by the hon. member for Jacques Cartier (Mr. Monk) that in the neighbourhood of $45,000 to $50,000 has been spent by the government in bringing these people out to this country, only one-quarter of whom, according to the minister, have proved good settlers. I realize, of course, that the minister is not perhaps altogether to blame for the bringing _out of these people, but I would ask him what they cost this country since they came out? What has it cost Canada to send out the police and special trains and to take care of those people when on these famous pilgrimages of which my hon. friend knows, which were an insult to the decent Canadian men, women and children throughout the country through which they paraded. Those pets of the late Minister of the Interior (Mr. Sifton), when they paraded in all their hakedness, were the most indecent exhibition we have ever seen in the Canadian west, not even excepting the poor ignorant aborigines. And these people were brought out as good settlers by this government, and the government took credit to them-Mr. CAMPBELL.

selves for bringing them to Canada. I would like to know approximately what it cost to semi-civilize these people and teach them some morality and semi-decency.

Topic:   SUPPLY-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   IMMIGRATION ACT AMENDMENT.
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LIB

Frank Oliver (Minister of the Interior; Superintendent-General of Indian Affairs)

Liberal

Mr. OLIVER.

I cannot give the information off-hand, but I shall use my endeavours to get it as nearly as possible. I hope to be able to place it before the House at a later date. As evidence that these people are not altogether undesirables, I may mention that a number have bought lands in British Columbia at very high prices and have formed colonies in two or three of the valleys there and are establishing fruit farms. I do not say that the fact that they have been able to accumulate wealth and that they have been large producers of wealth alone makes them desirable citizens. But I would not like the House to understand that they are without qualities that would entitle them to consideration. While I am speaking on this subject, I may say that it is quite a mistake to suppose that these people are of inferior mentality any more than they are inferior in physique to other people.

Topic:   SUPPLY-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   IMMIGRATION ACT AMENDMENT.
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CON

William Henry Sharpe

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. W. H. SHARPE.

To which class does the minister refer?

Topic:   SUPPLY-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   IMMIGRATION ACT AMENDMENT.
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LIB

Frank Oliver (Minister of the Interior; Superintendent-General of Indian Affairs)

Liberal

Mr. OLIVER.

We speak of the people of Ontario as a very superior class as they are, but there are undesirable people in Ontario. So that, out of 8,000 Doukhobors, a very considerable portion of them are, I say, not inferior in either mentality or physique to other people. There is a minority of them who are certainly inferior, so much so as to be classed as entirely undesirable.

Topic:   SUPPLY-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   IMMIGRATION ACT AMENDMENT.
Permalink
CON

William Henry Sharpe

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. W. H. SHARPE.

The minister has time and again spoken of these people as being divided into two classes. Of course, we all admit that some of them are fairly good settlers. If we could be sure of getting only that kind, I do not think there are many in western Canada who would object to more of them coming. But what we do object to is the government bringing into our decent settlements such people as were described by my hon. friend from Dauphin (Mr. Campbell) a few minutes ago. Would it be possible, under this new Bill, to prevent this undesirable class from coming into Canada? If not, I would advise the minister to have these people settle in Ottawa in all their native glory and in all their nakedness. Then the members of parliament from one end of Canada to the other would see the kind of people who have been sent into western Canada. As showing the wide range from which our immigrants are drawn, I may say that there are 49 different languages spoken in Winnipeg alone. There is no doubt that this foreign immigration are

not only filling our jails and asylums in western Canada, but, as shown by the returns brought down, the asylums and jails of Ontario as well. Will the minister tell me whether it is possible for these undesirables, such as he has described, to come into Canada under this new Bill?

Topic:   SUPPLY-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   IMMIGRATION ACT AMENDMENT.
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LIB

John Gillanders Turriff

Liberal

Mr. TURRIFF.

There has been a good deal of unfair criticism of the Doukhobors this evening. It is a good many years since these people came into Canada. They were brought in by the government and they were generally thought to be a good class of people. So far as my observation goes, the great majority of the Doukhobors are as good a class of settlers, almost, as you get from any other country. One great point against them, in my judgment, is that they wish to live in communities. But they are gradually breaking away from that. As the minister has pointed out, there is a minority who are practically insane.

Topic:   SUPPLY-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   IMMIGRATION ACT AMENDMENT.
Permalink

March 14, 1910