March 4, 1910

LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

How do they get there? Do they swim across the Pacific?

Topic:   SUPPLY-THE PRESS GALLERY.
Subtopic:   HALIFAX HARBOUR-BIG GUN PRACTICE AND THE FISHERMEN.
Permalink
LIB

William Templeman (Minister of Mines; Minister of Inland Revenue)

Liberal

Mr. TEMPLEMAN.

A statement that Japanese are entering British Columbia by Queen Charlotte island without any restraint or restriction, should not be allowed to go uncontradicted. It is absolutely and wholly inaccurate; there is not a shadow of foundation for such statements. There is not a Japanese on the Queen Charlotte islands who has not gone there through either the city of Vancouver or from the city of Victoria. It is true that up to a recent period there was a Japanese company developing a mine at Ikeda bay, employing between fifty or one hundred Japanese. But I think that mine has been sold, and there are, I am told, very few Japanese on Queen Charlotte island to-day. No ships, large or small, ever land on Queen Charlotte island from across the Pacific ocean. Up to the last two or three years Queen Charlotte islands have been largely undeveloped, there were very few people on

them. But now developments are taking place, and little communities are springing up, and we are trying to make provision for these places by the erection of wharfs. Just so soon as these communities become of sufficient importance to make it desirable to establish a port of entry there, the Minister of Customs will attend to them. But it is absolutely ridiculous, if my hon. friend will permit me to say so, to suggest that because we are endeavouring to meet the wants of the people at Queen Charlotte city by the erection of a wharf, we are thereby facilitating the violation of any customs regulations or any immigration law. It is unfair to say so, and it is not correct. I am sorry to see that my hon. friend from Vancouver is trying to throw obstacles in the way of a reasonable and moderate expenditure on Queen Charlotte island.

Topic:   SUPPLY-THE PRESS GALLERY.
Subtopic:   HALIFAX HARBOUR-BIG GUN PRACTICE AND THE FISHERMEN.
Permalink
CON

Martin Burrell

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BURRELL.

Do I understand the minister to say that Japanese no longer own mines in Queen Chariotte island?

Topic:   SUPPLY-THE PRESS GALLERY.
Subtopic:   HALIFAX HARBOUR-BIG GUN PRACTICE AND THE FISHERMEN.
Permalink
LIB

William Templeman (Minister of Mines; Minister of Inland Revenue)

Liberal

Mr. TEMPLEMAN.

I have been informed that the Ikeda mines have been sold to another company.

Topic:   SUPPLY-THE PRESS GALLERY.
Subtopic:   HALIFAX HARBOUR-BIG GUN PRACTICE AND THE FISHERMEN.
Permalink
CON

George Henry Cowan

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. COWAN.

I wish to point out that on Friday evening the Minister of Inland Revenue woke up to make the general statement that British Columbia had never proffered a request for public works that had not been granted, and that it was absolutely ridiculous for us to say otherwise. The hon. member for New Westminster (Mr. Taylor) promptly went to work and pointed out request after request from various sections in British Columbia which had been refused, and of which the minister knew absolutely nothing. Again he gets up and says that there has never been a boat crossing the Pacific ocean and making its entry at the harbours of the Queen Charlotte islands instead of Vancouver or Victoria. I shall have the pleasure of putting exactly the facts and the proof before the Minister of Inland Revenue upon that. But, I am sorry that I cannot penetrate the intelligence of the Minister of Inland Revenue. I am not opposing these items; I think they are correct, but I do think that the government should take steps at once to make some of these ports, ports of entry, or subports to prevent violations of the law.

Spallumcheen river-repairs to and extension of bank protection works, $1,000.

Topic:   SUPPLY-THE PRESS GALLERY.
Subtopic:   HALIFAX HARBOUR-BIG GUN PRACTICE AND THE FISHERMEN.
Permalink
LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

This is to make necessary improvements to already existing protection works that were constructed by the former government a few years ago. There has been some damage by storms and it is necessary to make repairs.

Topic:   SUPPLY-THE PRESS GALLERY.
Subtopic:   HALIFAX HARBOUR-BIG GUN PRACTICE AND THE FISHERMEN.
Permalink
CON

Arthur Samuel Goodeve

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. GOODEVE.

In reference to tills item, I would like to call the attention of

the hon. Minister of Public Works (Mr. Pugsley) to the requests made with regard to the repairing of the banks of the Columbia river. In that case also the minister will remember that he had knowledge that the government had already paid half the cost of the repairs to the shores c>f the Columbia river. The shores are being washed away. The ground then taken by the minister was that he had changed the policy of the government in that particular, and that the government were no longer doing any work of that nature, and that he felt that it was the duty of the province to do it. I am not objecting to this item. On the contrary, I am very glad to see this amount in the estimates, but I should have liked to have an amount placed in the estimates for other improvements to which I shall call the attention of the minister. 1 want to take this opportunity, because it is the only one I shall have in connection with the estimates of British Columbia, to call the attention of the minister and the government to the fact that we have made application both in connection with the Kootenay river and the Columbia river, for some needed improvements in the way of wharfs and dredging. I have here three petitions, not merely individual petitions, but the petitions of the Associated Boards of Trade of Southern British Columbia, and, therefore, of such a character as should carry some weight with this government. I am informed by letters that each of these petitions has been sent to the minister. One of them relates to dredging at Burton City on Arrow lake. I took a great deal of trouble to explain to the minister the circumstances with regard to this proposed improvement. This is a horticultural community which requires shipping facilities. On account of the nature of the bed of the lake, sand and gravel bars are washed up with the result that during the winter season at low water the boats cannot get in, and traffic has been actually compelled to go around by way of Nakusp, Slocan lake and Slocan City to get down there, with the result that a number of ranchers are cut off from communication with the outside. They have only received their mail once a week owing to that. To a large extent that would have been obviated if the minister had seen fit to put a small appropriation in these estimates to do the necessary dredging at this place. Then, I have also called his attention to the necessity of having some dredging done at Kootenay lake, where somewhat similar conditions exist, and also to the necessity of having buoys placed in Kootenay lake.

Topic:   SUPPLY-THE PRESS GALLERY.
Subtopic:   HALIFAX HARBOUR-BIG GUN PRACTICE AND THE FISHERMEN.
Permalink
LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

That would be under the Department of Marine and Fisheries.

Topic:   SUPPLY-THE PRESS GALLERY.
Subtopic:   HALIFAX HARBOUR-BIG GUN PRACTICE AND THE FISHERMEN.
Permalink
?

Mr. GOODE VE@

Yes, that would come under their department more particularly, so that I will leave it until we come to the Mr. GOODEVE.

estimates of the Department of Marine and Fisheries. However, in regard to this dredging, I endeavoured to put it very fairly before the minister. I explained the class of settlers coming in there, and I told him that we did not want large or expensive works, but that all we wanted was such wharfs as would enable settlers to_ get in their necessary merchandise and ship their fruit out. I considered this very fair, and I asked that he would place in the estimates an amount of $1,500 for wharfs in some places, and in others $2,500 or $3,000, which would be sufficient to build wharfs necessary to enable these settlers to carry on their business. The Canadian Pacific Railway Company are building a large summer hotel on Kootenay lake and they have seen fit to put on extra boats on account of the increased traffic. Yet, none of these considerations have affected the Minister of Public Works. I was very much surprised, in watching the estimates for the maritime provinces, to see that we are making grants to places much smaller and less populous, and that very large sums of money are being expended. In one place $15,000 was voted at the instance of the minister, and I saw where we spent it on day labour between October and November, 1908, a portion of it on the main street of the village. This village is said to have a population of 600 or 700. They put six inches of sand down on the main street, built culverts, &c. While that money is being expended in that way, we find it impossible in the new district into which a splendid class of settlers is coming to get these much needed improvements made. I think that this government should take this matter into consideration, and that they should fairly consider the great needs of a new country such as this is. It should also be remembered that British Columbia contributes a very large revenue. I do not propose to go into that to-day, because it was very clearly placed before the minister' a few days ago by my hon. friend from Vancouver (Mr. Cowan), and my hon. friend from New Westminster (Mr. Taylor). Every member of the government is familiar with the very large revenue that we pay in proportion to population-more than any. other province of the Dominion of Canada-and, therefore, it is only fair that we should receive some consideration in regard to the matters to which I have drawn the attention of the minister. During the first year I was here, I had several interviews with the ..minister, and I was careful to lay all the details before him. I appealed to his reason and fairness. I did consider that, while he made no definite promise, he would take this matter into his consideration, and particularly in one or two cases, while perhaps I did not quite understand the position he took, I concluded that there would have been amounts in the estimates for thd

wharfs that, we were asking for. I regret to see that they are not in the estimates at this time.

Topic:   SUPPLY-THE PRESS GALLERY.
Subtopic:   HALIFAX HARBOUR-BIG GUN PRACTICE AND THE FISHERMEN.
Permalink
LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

My hon. friend has spoken of improvements on the Columbia river. If he will look at the estimates which we have already passed he will find a sum of $14,500 for improvements on the Columbia river. In regard to the wharfs to which he refers, they are under consideration, and in regard to the matter of dredging in Kootenay lake, it has been brought to my attention, not by my hon. friend (Mr. Goodeve) alone, but by others, by my hon. friend the Minister of Inland Revenue (Mr. Templeman), and also by the Canadian Pacific railway. I may say to my hon. friend that I have now under consideration the question of building a dredge for operation on Kootenay lake. We have no dredge there at the present time. It has been impossible to do dredging work, and until we can build a dredge we cannot engage upon this work. I just want to say to my hon. friend that I do not think he strengthens his case at all by complaining that British Columbia is being discriminated against. If my hon. friend thinks there is any work in his province that is worthy of attention let him put it upon the ground that this province is being discriminated against by the Department of Public Works. I assure my hon. friend' that in that respect he is entirely in error. There is no foundation whatever for the statement, and the mere making of the statement and putting it forward so persistently, it does seem to me, is calculated to do his case more harm than good. If my hon. friend will take the main estimates he will see that we have provided for public buildings in British Columbia, $259,259. He speaks of the province of Nova Scotia, for instance, being more favoured than the province of British Columbia. If my hon. friend will turn to public buildings he will find that the total amount being appropriated in the main estimates for public buildings in Nova Scotia is $105,000. One hundred and five thousand dollars for Nova Scotia public buildings, as against $259,259 for public building in British Columbia-more than double the amount beng appropriated for public buildings than is being appropriated in Nova Scotia, and this notwithstanding the fact that we have just completed a public building in Vancouver which is one of the finest in the whole Dominion of Canada, and notwithstanding the fact that a large number of public buildings have recently been erected in other parts of British Columbia. I do not say that we are doing too much in British Columbia; I do not say that we are dealing generously with that province.

All I say is that we are dealing justly, fairly and equitably with British Columbia, just as we seek to deal with all the other provinces of Canada. Wherever there is a public work meriting an appropriation we endeavour to meet the wants of the people as fairly and as quickly as we can; but we cannot do everything at once. There are no doubt a great many public works in British Columbia, as there are in all the provinces of Canada which are worthy of being attended to, and which no doubt will be attended to in due course; but we cannot go on and construct all these public works at once, because we must have regard to the revenues of the country and to the demands upon those revenues. I want also to point out to my hon. friend that we are engaged in a great work of improving the Fraser river. Our attention has been directed strongly to the necessity of improving the entrance to the harbour of Vancouver. In Burrard Inlet, Vancouver has. one of the finest harbours in the world; but the entrance is not as good as it should be, in view of the rapidly developing traffic. Perhaps it can be truthfully said that it is dangerous. Well, we have an appropriation in these estimates, under capital account, for the improvement of that entrance, which shows that we recognize the importance of Vancouver as one of the national ports of the country. We propose widening the_ entrance to a width of 1,200 feet. This is going to cost, in addition to the cost of the dredge, about $350,000 or $400,000. We have also a provision in the estimates for making a great improvement in Victoria harbour- for continuing the dredging and blasting out of the rocks for the purpose of broadening the harbour and making it one of the best harbours in the country. At Nanaimo and many other places we are making improvements. My hon. friend will find in these estimates that we are appropriating $138,000 for wharfs and harbour improvements in British Columbia outside altogether of the expenditure for dredging and these great improvements in the Fraser river and in the harbours of Vancouver and Victoria. Therefore, if my hon. friend will look at matters as they are, I think he wall conclude that if we are not able to do as much for British Columbia at present as we would like to do, we recognize and are meeting as rapidly as possible the great necessities of this Tapidly developing and marvellously rich portion of our Dominion.

Topic:   SUPPLY-THE PRESS GALLERY.
Subtopic:   HALIFAX HARBOUR-BIG GUN PRACTICE AND THE FISHERMEN.
Permalink
CON

Arthur Samuel Goodeve

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. GOODEVE.

I do not think the hon. minister has answered any of the complaints I have made. I quite agree with him that, in view of the rapid growth of the province, the government are not expending too much in and around the city

of Vancouver, and the city of Victoria, on the coast or on the Queen Charlotte Islands. What I am speaking for is a place 500 miles from the place the minister has been discussing. He started out to discuss the amount to be expended on public works in the province; but as that item is not before us, I did not take up that question. When I spoke of the expenditures in. the other provinces, I was not complaining of them; but I pointed out that when the government were expending these sums of money in other provinces, it was only reasonable that there should be some money expended in the district I represent. I took this matter up in connection with the estimates at the first session of this, parliament, and I looked for something in the supplementary estimates of last year. As nothing was there, I took the matter up again, and the minister said that from the Minister of Inland Revenue and others from British Columbia applications had been made. Now, the resolution of the associated boards of trade of eastern. British Columbia, to which I have referred, says:

Whereas, the Canadian Pacific Railway Company contemplates the discontinuance of steamship service on the Lower Arrow lake owing to difficulties in navigation arising from wash-gravel deposited near the mouth of Cariboo creek, and whereas, such discontinuance of daily steamship service completes an isolation of such settlers, who with their families have purchased holdings, with the understanding that they should continue to enjoy the convenience of a daily steamer service, and the isolation of this large settlement will retard the development and settlement of such large areas as are now offered for sale, and hamper a legitimate industry that bids now to become the most profitable in the interior of this province, viz., the growing of fruit, &c. I

I need not weaTy the House by reading the whole of the resolution. The boards of trade have endeavoured to press this matter on its merits, and not in any contentious spirit, and I say again that in view of the revenue received by this government from the province of British Columbia, the development of the district to which I have referred, the number of immigrants going into it, and the fact that these are very large navigable waters, and that one of the greatest railway companies in the world is placing upon them a steamship service, I think they are entitled to some recognition on the part of the government. I went to the minister about this matter, having no desire to bring it before the House, believing that he would desire to deal fairly with it, and I am disappointed that nothing has been done, I am glad to hear the minister say that he has the matter under consideration, and I hope that he will still provide in the supplementary estimates, for the work I have men-Mr. GOODEVE.

tioned, both the dredging of the Columbia river, and the improvements on the Arrow lakes. In view of its pressing necessity, I would ask him if he has in view any dredging at Kootenay lake?

Topic:   SUPPLY-THE PRESS GALLERY.
Subtopic:   HALIFAX HARBOUR-BIG GUN PRACTICE AND THE FISHERMEN.
Permalink
LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

We have only one dredge on the Arrow lakes, and during the past season it was engaged in doing necessary work for improving the channel. We keep it at work wherever it appears to be most required. In these main estimates we are making provision for quite a number of works in British Columbia, and the fact that the others of which my hon. friend speaks are not provided for in these estimates is no proof that we have not given them either very careful consideration or even favourable consideration. Of course I cannot say to my hon. friend whether there will be supplementary estimates or not, I am not in a position to say that, and if it was understood there were to be supplementary estimates I could not say to my hon. friend what would be in them. Ail I can say is that the matter of doing work at Burton, Proctor and some other places as well as the dredging of Kootenay lake are all under careful consideration.

Topic:   SUPPLY-THE PRESS GALLERY.
Subtopic:   HALIFAX HARBOUR-BIG GUN PRACTICE AND THE FISHERMEN.
Permalink
CON

Martin Burrell

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BURRELL.

I think the minister's

manner of replying to my hon. friend from Kootenay (Mr. Goodeve) was hardly fair. I do not intend to discuss this very big question of better terms, but I do not think he should put the members from British Columbia into the position of condemning the size of the grants given to other portions of the country. I think if the minister were a British Columbian and had the history of British Columbia fairly well at heart he would take exactly the same attitude as any member from British Columbia. He would have to take it'because it has been clearly recognized in many high quarters that British Columbia has special claims on the consideration of the government, in fact claims which have not been met from our point of view and the leaders of his party when this question was being thoroughly discussed some time ago pointed out that they would not ask financial readjustment at the hands of the government, but would press for a laxger share of public works because that was the way in which the government of this country ought to deal justly with the province of British Columbia. It is not a matter to be dealt with in the way the Minister of Public Works dealt with it. If he referred to the expenditure on public works being greater in British Columbia than in Nova Scotia this year the only fair comparison would be a comparison over a number of years, and if he referred to the figures in the speech of my hon. friend from Victoria (Mr. Barnard) during the budget debate in reference to these

things, particularly with reference to questions of dredging, etc., he will find that some of the figures in connection with British Columbia's position compared with the rest of the country are very startling. We have a perfect right, as members from British Columbia, if we think the numerous claims of British Columbia have not been met to ask the government that they shall be fairly met on their merits. I will take the minister's word and am glad to know that the government are becoming a little more aware of the requirements of the case in British Columbia.

Last year I mentioned to the minister an -item in the estimates of the previous year of $10,000 for deepening the channel between Okanagan lake and Dog lake. The Minister replied:

Topic:   SUPPLY-THE PRESS GALLERY.
Subtopic:   HALIFAX HARBOUR-BIG GUN PRACTICE AND THE FISHERMEN.
Permalink
LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

Provision was made last year for improving the channel between Okanagan lake and Dog lake, hut owing to the fact that Dog lake is about 14 feet lower than Okanagan lake, I, myself, after considering very carefully the report of the engineers, have very grave doubts as to the desirability of proceeding with the work. I am inclined to think that it will not be proceeded with at the present time and I will tell my hon. friend why. I am afraid that if the outlet of Okanagan lake is lowered so as to give a free run to the water the result will be to lower the level of Okanagan lake and that might necessitate dredging. ... I am inclined to think that it might be better to delay proceeding with the work until a more careful study is made of the conditions. There is always the danger when you attempt to alter natural conditions with the idea of improving the navigation so as to give access to Dog lake that the result will be to materially injure the navigation of Okanagan lake which will be very much to be regretted.

I find in the report of the chief engineer for 1909, that $2,492 was expended. The report proceeds:

Some dredging in December done in Okanagan river about half a mile from where it leaves Okanagan lake. Work was resumed March 1. Prom March 1 to 14 the time, was occupied in building a house-boat to be used as quarters for the crew of the ' Heron' (dredge), the actual cost of which was about $350. Dredging was then continued where left oft at the end of December. Expenditure, $4,621.79.

I understand that the engineer in charge expects to be able to deepen the channel in such a way as to be able to make navigation possible without lowering the level of Okanagan lake and I shall be glad if the minister would explain the present position there and what the government propose to do, and are doing, because this work is regarded as of some importance in that country.

Topic:   SUPPLY-THE PRESS GALLERY.
Subtopic:   HALIFAX HARBOUR-BIG GUN PRACTICE AND THE FISHERMEN.
Permalink
LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

I made the statement to the House which the hon. gentleman 150i

has quoted. Last summer when I was in British Columbia I visited the locality in company with Mr. Aylmer, the assistant resident engineer, and in discussing the matter with him I found that his opinion was that instead of carrying out the plaji which had been originally in contemplation of dredging the whole channel between the two lakes; it would be desirable only to restore the natural conditions as they were some 15 years ago when there was navigation between the two lakes, that is to dredge out for some distance south of the main Okanagan lake, and he was authorized to proceed with this work. I found that if it were done in that way it would not lower Okanagan lake, while we would get reasonably good accommodation between the two lakes, navigation suitable for light draft vessels and equal to the navigation of 15 years ago before it was obstructed by gravel from a stream tributary to the river connecting the two lakes so that it would be a quite desirable public work. With my authority, which was communicated to the department at Ottawa, the engineer was instructed to proceed with the work along those lines. It has not yet been completed, but I should think it ought to be completed very early in the coming season.

Topic:   SUPPLY-THE PRESS GALLERY.
Subtopic:   HALIFAX HARBOUR-BIG GUN PRACTICE AND THE FISHERMEN.
Permalink
CON

Martin Burrell

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BURRELL.

The minister expects to complete it with the previous vote?

Topic:   SUPPLY-THE PRESS GALLERY.
Subtopic:   HALIFAX HARBOUR-BIG GUN PRACTICE AND THE FISHERMEN.
Permalink
LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

It can come out of the general dredging vote. We have our own dredge.

Topic:   SUPPLY-THE PRESS GALLERY.
Subtopic:   HALIFAX HARBOUR-BIG GUN PRACTICE AND THE FISHERMEN.
Permalink
CON

Martin Burrell

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BURRELL.

Then there is a reasonable expectation that the navigation can be made fairly satisfactory without lowering the lake?

Topic:   SUPPLY-THE PRESS GALLERY.
Subtopic:   HALIFAX HARBOUR-BIG GUN PRACTICE AND THE FISHERMEN.
Permalink
LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

I believe so, yes.

Stewart, head of Portland Canal wharf, $15,000.

Topic:   SUPPLY-THE PRESS GALLERY.
Subtopic:   HALIFAX HARBOUR-BIG GUN PRACTICE AND THE FISHERMEN.
Permalink
LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

This is to build a whaTf at a very important place, where there are evidences of unusual activity and development in the way of mining. It is at the head of the Portland canal. Arrangements are already under way for the building of a railway fifteen miles in length into the country, and it is believed that the development there will be something unprecedented in British Columbia so far as quartz mining is concerned. The wharf is essential and we are asking $15,000 for it.

Topic:   SUPPLY-THE PRESS GALLERY.
Subtopic:   HALIFAX HARBOUR-BIG GUN PRACTICE AND THE FISHERMEN.
Permalink

March 4, 1910