February 25, 1910

LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

Not on anybody's property. I think there is a roadway passing near the water, the road allowance goes to the bank.

Topic:   STRATHCONA.
Subtopic:   SUPPLY-EXPORT OF HORSES FROM ONTARIO.
Sub-subtopic:   $6,000.
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CON

William Wright

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. WRIGHT.

Is there any wharf there or landing at all?

Topic:   STRATHCONA.
Subtopic:   SUPPLY-EXPORT OF HORSES FROM ONTARIO.
Sub-subtopic:   $6,000.
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LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

I think not.

Topic:   STRATHCONA.
Subtopic:   SUPPLY-EXPORT OF HORSES FROM ONTARIO.
Sub-subtopic:   $6,000.
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CON

William Wright

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. WRIGHT.

It is not in connection with any navigation.

Topic:   STRATHCONA.
Subtopic:   SUPPLY-EXPORT OF HORSES FROM ONTARIO.
Sub-subtopic:   $6,000.
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LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

This is what the engineer says:

The rapid and dangerous erosion of the bank here is due to the construction of locks and dams at St. Anne de Bellevue, and by the Grand Trunk and Canadian Pacific railway of numerous large stone piers, thus producing increased high water in the lake. The damages complained of are due to this increased flow.

So the injury we are seeking to guard against was caused first by the construction of the locks and dam at St. Anns, which is a government work, and to a certain extent also by the bridges of the two railway companies, which of course were constructed with the consent and approval of the government. But as I understand, the greatest cause of the erosion has been the construction of the lock and dam.

Riviere Ouelle wharf-repairs and improvements, $4,500.

Topic:   STRATHCONA.
Subtopic:   SUPPLY-EXPORT OF HORSES FROM ONTARIO.
Sub-subtopic:   $6,000.
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LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

This is to provide for repairs to the Riviere Ouelle wharf urged by the resident engineer. This will complete the work, the total cost of which will be about $8,000.

Topic:   STRATHCONA.
Subtopic:   SUPPLY-EXPORT OF HORSES FROM ONTARIO.
Sub-subtopic:   $6,000.
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CON

Samuel Simpson Sharpe

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SAM. SHARPE.

Did the government originally construct this wharf?

Topic:   STRATHCONA.
Subtopic:   SUPPLY-EXPORT OF HORSES FROM ONTARIO.
Sub-subtopic:   $6,000.
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LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

Topic:   STRATHCONA.
Subtopic:   SUPPLY-EXPORT OF HORSES FROM ONTARIO.
Sub-subtopic:   $6,000.
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LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

There was a wharf built there away back in 1856, and the government in 1906 made an extension or built a spur to the wharf. It is owned by the government. This is the place where the government steamer lands which runs in connection with the Intercolonial across to Murray Bay.

Topic:   STRATHCONA.
Subtopic:   SUPPLY-EXPORT OF HORSES FROM ONTARIO.
Sub-subtopic:   $6,000.
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CON

William Wright

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. WRIGHT.

When did the government purchase this wharf?

Topic:   STRATHCONA.
Subtopic:   SUPPLY-EXPORT OF HORSES FROM ONTARIO.
Sub-subtopic:   $6,000.
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LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

I think it has always been a government wharf since the time of confederation.

Topic:   STRATHCONA.
Subtopic:   SUPPLY-EXPORT OF HORSES FROM ONTARIO.
Sub-subtopic:   $6,000.
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LIB

Rodolphe Lemieux (Postmaster General)

Liberal

Mr. LEMIEUX.

It was built bifore confederation. Some years ago the Intercolonial built a spur line from the village of Ouelle to the St. Denis wharf. It gives a winter service to the village of Ouelle.

River Richelieu-improvements, $60,000.

Topic:   STRATHCONA.
Subtopic:   SUPPLY-EXPORT OF HORSES FROM ONTARIO.
Sub-subtopic:   $6,000.
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LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

This is to continue tile very important work of improvement upon the Richelieu river. The matter was fully discussed at the last session, when the vote for this purpose was granted. The improvements consist of a lock and dam at or near the city of St. John upon the Richelieu river, and also of the dredging and removing of large boulders which are in the channel. The object is to improve navigation, and at the same time to prevent the flooding of a vast section of country which has been flooded almost every year by the waters of the Richelieu.

Topic:   STRATHCONA.
Subtopic:   SUPPLY-EXPORT OF HORSES FROM ONTARIO.
Sub-subtopic:   $6,000.
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CON

James Davis Taylor

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. J. D. TAYLOR.

While I do not object to this appropriation in itself, I wish to call the attention of the minister to the fact that this improvement is designed to perform a service on the Richelieu river which he denied to us on the Fraser river, on the ground that it was impossible for the government to make such expenditure unless it was to be made for the improvement of navigation. Now the minister has just stated that this item was for the improvement of navigation, and also that it was in connection with the works being carried on on the Richelieu river. I have referred to his report, and I see that the primary object of this work is, not for the improvement of navigation, but to save this land from inundation. Now I wish to make myself quite plain, I am not opposing any vote for that purpose; I think it is a matter to which this government should give attention. But, the point I wish to make is that when the Dominion government makes a large expenditure of this kind to save lands from inundation in one province, the government is in duty bound to make a like expenditure in other provinces. I find in the annual report of the Minister of Public Works this paragraph with respect to Richelieu improvements:

Along the upper part of the river from the boundary to St. Johns, a distance of 22 miles, the shores are all low lands, except the first two mdes.

These low lands are covered at high water for sometimes over two months, long enough to prevent the culture of large areas. This high water also extends over the shores of the tributaries of the Richelieu such as Riviere du Sud and Riviere au Brocket. Some 40,000 acres of land are thus rendered entirely useless.

Then it gives the parishes. The report proceeds:

In order to lower the water and prevent the annual floods, it was decided to dredge a channel, 1,750 feet wide (the whole width of the river at its narrowest place), and 5,200 feet long.

I wish to call the attention of the minister to the fact that in this official report of the operations on the Richelieu river there is not one word about these improvements being necessary in the interests of navigation. We must take it that the engineer who makes this report, the^ chief engineer of the department, is speaking by the book, and that he is making a faithful and trustworthy report to this parliament with respect to the real object of these improvements. I wish to call the attention of the minister to the fact that we on the Fraser river are entitled in equity to similar improvements which will protect our lands from flooding at Chiliwack, Matsqui, Langely, Nicomen Island and Ladner, where the conditions are precisely the same as we find here. We claim the protection on the Fraser river that is given on the Richelieu river, and we claim it not only as a matter of equity, but as a matter of compact with this government that has undertaken to give to us in the province of British Columbia expenditures of the same nature as are made in any other province of the Dominion. I wish the minister would take this seriously into his consideration, because, although this is a matter which has been mentioned frequently here, and has been met very casually by the minister, I wish to say that the conditions are getting so serious that the people of British Columbia will not permit their representatives in parliament to go without blame if they continue to vote money for expenditures in other provinces which are denied to the province of British Columbia.

Topic:   STRATHCONA.
Subtopic:   SUPPLY-EXPORT OF HORSES FROM ONTARIO.
Sub-subtopic:   $6,000.
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LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

My hon. friend (Mr. J. D. Taylor) says that no stress has heretofore been laid on the fact that these improvements are for the purpose of aiding the navigation of the Richelieu river. I am quite sure my hon. friend is entirely in error as to that.

Topic:   STRATHCONA.
Subtopic:   SUPPLY-EXPORT OF HORSES FROM ONTARIO.
Sub-subtopic:   $6,000.
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CON

James Davis Taylor

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. J. D. TAYLOR.

If the minister will permit me, I was quoting from his own an-1341

nual report here, and I said that in this report there is no reference of that nature.

Topic:   STRATHCONA.
Subtopic:   SUPPLY-EXPORT OF HORSES FROM ONTARIO.
Sub-subtopic:   $6,000.
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LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

I find in the note which I have, and which is taken from the reports, that it is claimed that this movable dam will afford considerable advantage to the navigation of the river and permit dispensing with the dredging which has now to be done at regular intervals between St, John and Lake Champlain. It will also provide an increased depth in the Chambly canal of at least one foot, and with the additional improvements, 9 feet of water can be obtained in the canal prism instead of

7. I repeat that the object of this improvement is two-fold. One effect will be to improve the navigation of the Richelieu river, which is a very important stretch of navigable water connecting the St. Lawrence River system with Lake Champlain and the Hudson river in the state of New York.

Topic:   STRATHCONA.
Subtopic:   SUPPLY-EXPORT OF HORSES FROM ONTARIO.
Sub-subtopic:   $6,000.
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CON

James Davis Taylor

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. J. D. TAYLOR.

Is the Richelieu river more important than the Fraser river?

Topic:   STRATHCONA.
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Sub-subtopic:   $6,000.
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LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

I am not compelled to answer that question at the moment. I will come to the Fraser river in a few minutes, and I think my hon. friend will say that this government has done full justice to the claims of those who are interested in the improvement of the Fraser river. I also repeat that the effect of this improvement will be to prevent an enormous amount of otherwise good land from being periodically flooded by the waters of the Richelieu river. I think my hon. friend will agree that the work is an important one. In regard to the Fraser river, my hon. friend says that his constituents will complain if he does not, while considering items for other provinces, insist upon similar work being done on the Fraser. No one appreciates to a greater extent than I do the importance of the Fraser river, and as an evidence of the importance which I attach to that great river, I may say that last year the government, upon my recommendation, purchased a suction dredge called the ' Fruhling ' at a large cost, a dredge which is one of the very best operating upon either the Atlantic or the Pacific coast, and the primary object of the purchasing of that dredge was the improvement of the Fraser river. We have, through the engineering department, laid out a system of improvements on the Fraser river, by means of dredging and by means of jetties, which we expect will give a ship channel 30 feet in depth from the city of Westminster to the Gulf of Georgia. We anticipate that these improvements are going to cost this country at least $1,000,000, and yet, when we have engaged in this great work and have asked parliament to vote money for the purpose of carrying it on, it seems that the hon. gentleman feels

it to be his duty, when we aie asking for a small amount for the River Richelieu, _ to rise and protest against this item being passed unless a similar item is put in the estimates for a certain improvement on the Fraser river.

Topic:   STRATHCONA.
Subtopic:   SUPPLY-EXPORT OF HORSES FROM ONTARIO.
Sub-subtopic:   $6,000.
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CON

James Davis Taylor

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. J. D. TAYLOR.

I do not think the minister is quite fair in his remarks. I do not think he has interpreted fairly what I said. He seems to have entirely misunderstood my remarks. I did not protest against this work on the Richelieu river, but I did object to the policy laid down by the minister the other evening in answer to a question addressed to him by myself, wherein he said that work of this kind would not be carried on any longer, that this government would not any longer make outlays in any of the provinces except for the improvement of navigation. If that is strictly adhered to, no doubt we in British Columbia can stand it as well as the people of any other province, but I would like to call the minister's attention to the fact that we in British Columbia are very large contributors to the general revenue of the Dominion, that we pay to Canada every year many hundreds of thousands of dollars, or, many millions of dollars, in excess of all the expenditures upon the province of British Columbia. Therefore, it is our good British Columbia money that is being spent to a considerable extent on these Richelieu river improvements, and it seems to us an intolerable position that, while our money is being spent upon the protection of property throughout Canada, the minister should lay down the princiole that vre must not ask for any of that protection in British Columbia. What I am asking for is equal rights. I am not jealous of any other constituency getting improvements, but I do object to one yard stick being applied to eastern districts which are near, which are under the eye of the minister, and in which the department seems to take more particular interest, and another yard stick being applied to British Columbia. I think the minister lays too much stress upon the cost of this magnificent dredge, the ' Fruh-ling.' and tells us too little of what the ' Fruhling ' has accomplished. The ques tion is not as to whether the minister has spent $300,000 on that dredge. What we would like to hear from the minister is what the dredge is doing, what progress it is making, not giving its capacity per hour or its capacity per lift, but how many lifts will be necessary to carry through the work, and what return we get for this $300,000. Moreover, to say that the dredge ' Fruhling ' is working at the mouth of the Fraser river comes very far short of being an answer to our request for improvements on the Fraser river. I would like to point out that the work of the ' Fruhling ' at the Mr. PUGSLRV

mouth of the river does not meet the requirements of the people along the Fraser, because, as I told the minister just now, the lands that are flooded are not immediately at the mouth of the river. We are applying for protection at distances long removed from the mouth of the river, at Chiliwack, at Matsqui, at Nicomen island, at Langley, and throughout the Delta, and to answer me that the department has bought a $300,000 dredge and put it to work at the mouth of the river is not an answer to our request for protection to works from Chiliwack down, to which we think we are entitled.

Topic:   STRATHCONA.
Subtopic:   SUPPLY-EXPORT OF HORSES FROM ONTARIO.
Sub-subtopic:   $6,000.
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February 25, 1910