January 24, 1910

LIB

Judson Burpee Black

Liberal

Mr. BLACK.

I have never read any proof of that assertion. There are many things being said in the House that lack proof.

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CON

Thomas Simpson Sproule

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SPROULE.

It is a matter of a return brought down to this House.

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LIB

Judson Burpee Black

Liberal

Mr. BLACK.

I am not advocating this transfer in the interest of Ontario or of the western wheat growers. Two-thirds of the freight that goes over that road goes east, from which we are getting no advantage whatever. Western drummers come down to Nova Scotia and New Brunswick to solicit orders; their goods come down over the railway, and if there is no reduction in the freight rate, what benefit is it to the people in the maritime provinces? We know that the freight rates and the passenger rates from Montreal to Halifax and St. John are just exactly the same as the rates from Halifax and St. John to Montreal. Furthermore, all the rates are under the control of the Railway Commission. The question of the reduction of rates is a mighty small thing when compared with the want of development of the country through which that railway runs. Forty or fifty years ago a man worked for 75, 80 or 90 cents a day; would that man like to go back to old times and take the small wage he was getting then? This country has gone ahead since the railway was built, we can afford to pay higher wages. The people can afford to pay higher freight rates now than they did before. There is nothing more important to the interests of [DOT] a country than transportation. Transportation lies at the foundation of the commerce and the manufacturers of a country.

You cannot successfully manufacture, you cannot successfully trade, you cannot prosper without adequate transportation. I want to say that we are not getting adequate transportation, we are not getting that development of our country that we should get. The functions of a modern railway, Mr. Speaker, are not merely to carry passengers and freight, a modern railway does much more than that. If you look into the industrial transportation of the United States, you will find that the railways of that country have to a large extent engaged in industrial enterprises, and have at all times lent their aid and assistance to the establishment of industrial enterprises along their lines, and have been the chief actor in the development of many successful industries in the United States. As I have said, the functions of a modern railway are not merely to carry freight and passengers, but they are to make freight, to add to population, to get passengers, to bring in immigrants, to promote industry in the country. A modem railway engages in manufactures, engages in mining

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LIB
LIB

Judson Burpee Black

Liberal

Mr. BLACK.

The hon. gentleman says rebates. He has run a railway, and knows more about it than I do. They engage in shipping, they conduct schools for technical education, they assist in developing the industries of a country. The Intercolonial, I take it for granted, is not doing anything of that kind in the maritime provinces. As a matter of fact not only are our industries, our agriculture, our manufactures. our mines, our immigration not assisted by the Intercolonial railway m the maritime provinces, hut our industries are actually injured, our population is depleted by the Intercolonial railway joining with the Canadian Pacific railway in tas-ing loads of our young men every autumn to the west for almost nothing. Any man knows who lives in the maritime provinces that every autumn thousands of the healthiest, the strongest and the ablest young men are carried by the Intercolonial railway to the nearest connection with the Canadian Pacific railway, and from there transported west.

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CON

Thomas Simpson Sproule

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SPROULE.

How would that be remedied by giving the Intercolonial railway over to the Canadian Pacific railway?

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LIB

Judson Burpee Black

Liberal

Mr. BLACK.

Well, wait until I get through. I am making the statement that the Intercolonial railway, the peoples' railway, is helping to carry the people out of the country. You might not remedy it if the Canadian Pacific railway owned it, and I am not advocating particularly that the Canadian Pacific railway do own it, but what I say is that the Canadian Pacific railway is a private owned railway and it Mr. BLAIN.

is interested in -taking the people out while the government owned railway is helping it to depopulate the maritime provinces. Go into any station from Halifax to Amherst or in New Brunswick and you will see posted inducements to young men to go in immigrant trains at reduced rates or at almost nothing. That is the way the Intercolonial railway is assisting the industry of the maritime provinces. There are very remarkable things done for the people by the peoples' railway. I would like to know how much regard there has been in the prompt dismissal of hundreds of employees without a week's notice. This is the peoples' railway. I would like to know if it is in the interests of the people that the commissioners takes the big stick and threaten a newspaper if it criticise the management. That it will get no more patronage and not only threaten, but carries out the threat. That is the way the peoples' railway is managed for the people. God save us from the peoples' railway.

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LIB

George Perry Graham (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Liberal

Mr. GRAHAM.

It has turned into a prayer service.

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LIB
LIB
LIB

Judson Burpee Black

Liberal

Mr. BLACK.

My hon. friend (Mr. Roy) knows the beauties of Quebec, and they are great, but I know the beauties of Nova Scotia and they are magnificent. Business methods adopted by a modern railway company would develop the maritime provinces, build up our industries and increase the products of our natural resources. My own belief is that if you hand the Intercolonial over to a first-class company with capital, that that company will within a short time, be bound to expend at least $5,000,000 in the establishment of industries and the erection of hotels in the maritime provinces. Were the Intercolonial handed over to a strong private company, I believe we would see the maritime provinces blossom like the rose. Can the Intercolonial, as it is situated today, engage in any such enterprise? No. They have to come back to parliament for a vote before anything can be done, and just imagine the countenance of the hon. member for Lanark (Mr. Haggart) if this House were asked to vote an appropriation to build an hotel in Halifax. I would like to hear what the Conservative members from Ontario and the west would have to say were they asked to vote $100,000 to develop the pulp industries of New Brunswick or to

open up the vast mineral deposits in Nova Scotia. The Intercolonial railway simply cannot do these things. The commission cannot do them if they wanted to. See the circumlocution that has been going on for two years and more about the purchasing of the branch lines as feeders. Two years ago (Mr. Emmerson) introduced the question, and to-day it has not got far enough that it has not to come back to parliament again for ratification, when the commission decide what railways they shall buy, if any. Were the Intercolonial handed over to a private company, that company would do all these things without delay. The present Intercolonial Railway Commissioners not only cannot help the industries of the maritime provinces but in their present state of mind they don't want to. They don't know anything about the needs of the maritime provinces, they are not maritime province men. I think one of them has been imported from Vermont by way of Ontario, and what does he know about the growing necessities and needs of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, or of Quebec? Nothing at all. Are their interests our interests? Is their heart in sympathy with out wants and all we need? Not a hit of it. I say that the present management of the Intercolonial by the commission is the worst we have had for many years, and since the man of brains and the man of ability has gone out and left the commission we will go from bad to worse. I have no hope for it at all. What would Halifax be with a private company owning the Intercolonial, with a line of steamers such as the Canadian Pacific railway are running, say to Liverpool or Glasgow, with a proper line of steamers to take up that splendid opportunity of' trade with the West Indies? What have we got down there now? We are subsidizing Norwegian steamers, if I am not mistaken, to run between Halifax and the West Indies, and I think they are doing the same thing at St. John. Do not misunderstand me, I think that the Thompsons of St. John have a large subsidy for running steamers to the West Indies, but they are handing a large part of that work over to Norwegian steamers. Pickford and Black had a large subsidy for running steamers, such as they are, and they never were much, -down to the West Indies. If I am not incorrectly informed, Norwegian steamers are carrying on the service there. Are we assisting the trade and commerce of the maritime provinces by such things as that? I think not.

I wished to reply to some of the arguments and criticisms of the opponents of this scheme, but I do not think it would be fair to the other gentlemen who desire to speak on this subject. I think I have shown that the Intercolonial railway cannot help us in our industries in the maritime provinces and will not. We have vast Mr. BLACK.

industries there that need developing. Somebody may say: Why do not your Nova Scotians and New Brunswickers do it themselves, they go to Trinidad and Mexico and invest money, why do they not invest in their own country? That is the strange part of human nature. It is so in other countries, it is so in England. It was stated by one of the Rothschilds not long ago that for investments outside of England, any quantity of money could be raised, but for investments in England it was almost impossible to raise any. I presume it is a case of:

Par off fowls ha'e feathers fair,

An' aye until ye try them.

The great cry on the part of the people's railway is the reduced freights, and the claim that if the company had the road, freights would go up. Every one knows that the freight rates are not left entirely to the railway companies, that they are controlled by the permanent railway commission and that a railroad cannot charge whatever it pleases. For my own part I believe that if this road was handed; over to a company the increase in industries and the development of the undeveloped possibilities of the maritime provinces would be such that we could afford to pay higher rates, but I do not believe we would have to pay higher rates.

I beg to move the resolution standing in my name.

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?

Thomas Hay

Mr. D. H.

McALISTER (Kings and Albert, N. B.) I seldom encroach on the time of the House by making a speech, but as this resolution concerns the people whom I represent I think it my duty to say a few words upon it. Public sentiment in the contituency I have the honour to represent, is absolutely opposed to such a course, and I must confess that I am opposed to this resolution. Furthermore I am really surprised that a resolution of this description should ever "Be introduced in this House by a maritime province member.

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LIB
LIB

Duncan Hamilton McAlister

Liberal

Mr. McALISTER.

If it had been introduced by a member from the west or from the, Yukon district the matter might be explained. I do not believe the government have any mandate to get rid of the Intercolonial railway. They have no right either directly or indirectly through the Department of Railways to lease that road to a private company or syndicate. If this government should take it to be their duty to do so and declare that to be their policy, they should dissolve this House and go before the people to secure their verdict. I am quite sure that if they did so, the members supporting this government from the beautiful little provinces down by the sea would be minus.

Their number would be very different from what it is to-day. If I went before the people of my constituency advocating this resolution, I would not get 1,000 votes from the beautiful united constituency of Kings and Albert.

I would like to read a few newspaper clippings in regard to the Intercolonial railway being handed over to a private syndicate or company. The first is from the Toronto 'Globe1 and purports to be the words of Mr. Kobert Meighen, president of the Lake of the Woods Milling Company. It reads:

I would not stand for the control of the Intercolonial railway being given to any corporation. I don't care whether it is the Canadian Pacific railway, of which I am a director, the Grand Trunk, or Mackenzie & Mann, I think it would he wrong. I could give my reasons, but as a railway director perhaps I had better not.

Another business man of Montreal says:

If it goes into the hands of Mackenzie & Mann or any other company there will be a revolution in the maritime provinces. I spent 25 years there, and I know the feeling such a step would arouse.

The Moncton 'Transcript' quotes from the Toronto 'World', a paper also of some account saying:

The 'World' takes up the question not only in behalf of the maritime provinces, but from the standpoint of the people generally. Replying to those who have been crying out against the Intercolonial, it says:

We have ust two things to say to these ex ploiters-and they are exnloiters for themselves pure and simple:

First, the Intercolonial is owned by the people of Canada at large, noc by the people of the maritime provinces as such; that they've put their good eighty millions of dollars in it, both because they engaged to build it as a pare of the pact of confederation, and because they see that it is or can certainly be made a substantial check on the other roads, and, in an emergency, of the supremest importance to Canada as a state and as a part of the British empire

There have been a great many fallacies in regard to the Intercolonial railway, and one of the greatest of these is that the deficits have been due to party political causes. If that be the case, what caused the surplus when the hon. member for Westmorland (Mr. Emmerson) was Minister of Railways and Canals? If the deficit in 1907 was due to .party political causes, what caused the expansion of its revenues nearly threefold since 1907? No doubt the management of the Intercolonial railway has been defective in many respects, but it is equally undoubted that it has become considerably improved since this commission has had control. I am sorry to find my hon. friend (Mr. Black) jump on the Intercolonial railway commission before that commission has had the opportunity to submit a report of its administration and before, therefore, he is in a position to know what it is doing. I think he should have waited until its re-iptort was submitted (before making his criticism. As regards the resignation of Mr. Butler, that is an event which we all must regret. From what I have known of Mr. Butler's control, he has always conducted the affairs of the Intercolonial railway from a perfectly fair and nonpolitical standpoint; but while I agree with my hon. friend (Mr. Black) that the resignation of Mr. Butler will cripple the commission to a certain extent, I cannot go the length which the hon. gentleman did. I think that if Mr. Pottinger had been allowed the same free hand some years ago the Intercolonial railway would have shown in all probability different results.

No doubt that railway has cost the people of Canada some $80,000,000, but in return we have a valuable asset; and the best proof of the value of that asset is the fact that a number of private corporations are doing their best to get hold of it. In my opinion, a good many of the reports we read about that railway are sprung by individuals who are anxious to get control. It would be very unfair to the people of Canada if, after they had met the deficits on the Intercolonial all those years, they should now, when it has a good chance to make a profitable showing, be induced to hand it over to some private individuals. The maritime provinces are to-day on the eve of a great commercial development. Our new Canadian navy, if we should decide to have one, will no doubt be built at St. John and Halifax and will no doubt start a boom in the maritime provinces, and add considerably to the traffic of the Intercolonial railway. In mining and shipbuilding, I look to see a great increase in the near future, and I have no doubt that those shrewd individuals who are trying to get control of the Intercolonial railway are doing so in anticipation of this turn of the tide. But when people talk of what the Intercolonial railway has cost the country, if they will figure out the land grant of the Canadian Pacific at one dollar an acre they will find that that railway has cost the people considerable more than $80,000,000, and yet the people down by the sea have never complained. Then take the enormous sums that have been expended on our canals, and we have suggestions made for millions more of canal expenditure in the near future. So that if the Intercolonial railway has not been a paying proposition so far, neither have our canals. The policy of the government regarding canals is that of free tolls, so that if you add the interest on the ex-

penditure to the annual cost of maintenance and operation you will find that the amount we have spent on our canals is enormous. Yet the people of the maritime provinces do not complain. They realize that the people who use the canals are getting the benefit, and in the same way the people who use the Intercolonial rail-wav are reaping the advantage. We often hear the Canadian Pacific railway held up as a shining light in comparison with the Intercolonial railway. Weil, no one doubts that the Canadian Pacific is a well organized and a well managed road, but I am going to give you some figures showing the rates charged on the Canadian Pacific railway and the Intercolonial railway which may perhaps cause some people to reflect. There are ten classifications in tariff rates on the Canadian Pacific railway, and from St. John to Woodstock, N.B., a distance of 137 miles, the ten classifications are per 100 lbs. as follows:

No. 1, 10 cents per 100 lbs.

No. 2, 35 cents per 100 lbs.

No. 3, 30 cents per 100 lbs.

No. 4, 25 cents per 100 lbs.

No. 5, 20 cents per 100 lbs.

No. 6, 18 cents per 100 lbs.

No. 7, 15 cents per 100 lbs.

No. 8, 16 cents per 100 lbs.

No. 9, 16 cents per 100 lbs.

No. 10, 13 cents per 100 lbs.

While for the same distance, St. John to Amherst, N.S., the Intercolonial railway charges as follows:

No. 1, 29 cents per 100 lbs.

No. 2, 26 cents per 100 lbs.

No. 3, 22 cents per 100 lbs.

No. 4, 18 cents per 100 lbs.

No. 5, 15 cents per 100 lbs.

No. 6, 14 cents per 100 lbs.

No. 7, 11 cents per 100 lbs.

No. 8, 12 cents per 100 lbs.

No. 9, 11 cents per 100 lbs.

No. 10, 9 cents per 100 lbs.

Taking another point, St. John to Perth Jet., a distance of 184 miles, the Canadian Pacific charges: .42 .37 .32 .26 .21 .19 .17 .17 .17 .15, while from St. John to Wentworth the same mileage, the Intercolonialcharges: .33 .29 .26 .21 .17 .16 .14 .14 .12 .11. Just one more case, St. John to -St. Leonards, a distance of 223 miles, the Canadian Pacific charges: .48 .42 .36 .30 .24 .22 .18 .19 .19 .16, while the Intercolonialcharges, St. John to Brookfield, N.S., the same mileage: .36 .32 .27 .23 .18 .16 .14 .15

.14 .12.

These figures show that from St. John to Amherst, which is exactly the same distance as from St. John to Woodstock, the people pay 38 per cent higher freight rates on the Canadian Pacific railway than they do on the Intercolonial railway. This is a matter which ought to be seriously considered bv the hon. gentleman who Mr. McAlister.

presented the resolution we are now discussing. Does he really think that any private company would build these beautiful hotels he sneaks of to develop this great province of Nova Scotia? No, Sir, such companies aTe looking out for themselves, whereas the government is looking out for the development of the whole country. Does he think that if a private company owned the Intercolonial railway it would haul coal as cheaply from the coal mines of Nova Scotia as the Intercolonial railway does?

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LIB
LIB

Duncan Hamilton McAlister

Liberal

Mr. McALISTER.

My hon. friend knows that the sale or lease of the Intercolonial railway to a private corporation would cause great loss and inconvenience to the large industrial plants in Sydney and other points in Nova Scotia. It seems to me that the object of this resolution is to induce the government to give over $80,000,000 worth of railway to a private corporation without a quid pto quo. and would make the rich richer and the poor poorer. What is wanted in the maritime provinces is population, and those who are advocating the sale of the Intercolonial railway would do much better by urging on this government and the local government of Nova Scotia a more energetic immigration policy as regards that province. What we require is not to get rid of the Intercolonial, but to bring in a larger immigration.

There is_ one thing I have not spoken of and that is the accommodation we get by the Intercolonial railway. Members from the west do not appreciate this, but if they lived along the Intercolonial they would. I may say that in the little town of Sussex where I live, we have an express train that leaves every day for St. John, stopping at every station, and returning the same day, and that service is just as good as any street car service you can find in any city. I would like to ask the hon. member for Hants (Mr. Black) if he thinks we would continue to enjoy that luxury if the Intercolonial was handed over to a private corporation. I do not think so. If the- Intercolonial had been charging the same rates last year in the province of New Brunswick as the Canadian Pacific railway, we would have had to pay $1,874,878 more for freight, and $120,331 more for passenger rates. If we had paid the same rates on the Intercolonial as are charged by the Canadian Pacific railway in New Brunswick last year, we would be $2,000,000 out of pocket. That is a question that needs to be seriously considered. I am surprised at this hon. gentleman advocating the lease or sale of the Intercolonial. I travelled through my constituency last fall during an election

campaign, and in almost every farm yard I saw Massey Harris machines, a Massey Harris reaper, a Massey Harris mower, and what doe3 that mean? It means that the people in the lower provinces are netting the advantage of cheap freight rates on their agricultural machinery that comes from Ontario. Now, I do not think we should denounce a railway that procures us these favours, but we should rather encourage it. To be sure the purchaser of this machinery paid the freight rates, but he g

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LIB

Samuel Walter Willet Pickup

Liberal

Mr. S. W. W. PICKUP (Annapolis).

The resolution introduced by the hon. member for Hants (Mr. Black) is one of great interest to the maritime provinces. The question is whether it would be advantageous to the maritime provinces to have the Intercolonial railway continue under the present management, or to hand it over to the control of one of the great railway companies. It is to be remembered that the Intercolonial railway was undertaken for political purposes as well as for the interchange of products and people between the maritime provinces and 74

the western provinces. It has been a great success in all these purposes, though the balance has not always been on the right side. But the districts served had the advantage of cheap rates and excellent service. Towns have sprung up along the line, which have afforded considerable trade, and the road itself has afforded excellent transportation facilities for the manufactured products of Ontario and Quebec, of which the maritime provinces are large consumers. The object for which the road was undertaken has been met, and now the question arises whether it would not be better to develop the natural resources of the maritime provinces by giving the road over to the control of one of the transcontinental railways, whose policy we know to be the acquisition of branch lines, the extension of existing lines, and the construction of new lines in any district where they are required for the development of trade and the natural resources of the district.

Some Quebec and Ontario papers have made the statement that the maritime provinces are the dead ends of the Dominion. This is not a fact. I would like to call the attention of the House to_ the great natural resources of the maritime provinces in agriculture, fisheries, minerals, forests, timber and water-power, all of which need development. The federal government and capitalists have been devoting much attention to developing the natural resources of the great western provinces, building up cities on the plains and on the Pacific coast, improving canals and building railways, so as to bring their products to the markets of the world. This is a commendable project, and the government are doing it well. But our eastern provinces should not be neglected, and if capital and population can be induced to go to the maritime provinces some effort should be made in that direction. The maritime provinces furnish their proportion to the fisheries of Canada, which are almost inexhaustible around our shores. If these fisheries were properly organized, and the best methods were adopted of catching, packing, canning and marketing the fish, they would be great wealth producers. Our forests are timbered with woods of good commercial value, both for manufacturing and building purposes. We have pulp wood in considerable quantities, fair water-powers, coal, iron and gold in abundance. Gypsum and limestone are to be found in all the! maritime provinces, and with capital and population, there is no reason why they should not become one of the great industrial centres of Canada.

At one time the maritime provinces owned and controlled the largest amount of shipping, according to population, of any country in the world. In 1874 they built 183,000

tons, and the total number of tons registered in Canada at that time was 1,634,330, nearly as much as Great Britain, which had 1,896,000 tons. The maritime provinces built the largest and best ships, and assisted in doing the carrying trade of the world. There is no reason why this history should not repeat itself, and by the organization of two or three iron and steel ship building plants, ship; building in the maritime provinces might be revived. Judging by the past, our people are eminently fitted for the construction and management of shipping, and have been exceedingly successful. Every facility and encouragement should be afforded to the people of the maritime provinces to enable them successfully to carry on their business, and to afford them the necessary transportation facilities. Our manufacturing in the maritime provinces is confined to a few towns that are good distributing centres and have good service and cheap rates. In the great provinces of Ontario and Quebec there are many manufacturing towns. Their people are no more intelligent, have no better business ability, and their natural resources are not greater than are those in the maritime provinces. But they have better transportation facilities. Two or three lines of railway pass through a great many of the towns, and afford excellent facilities for the transportation of their products to market at reasonable rates. But in the maritime provinces our products have to pass over two or three lines of railway before they reach the markets, and from over the branch and trunk lines, and we have to pay from twenty to thirty per cent higher over these branch lines than is charged over the main line. This is unfair to the people of the maritime provinces, who have to contribute to the construction of these roads, and it is unjust that they should be compelled to pay a toll in excess of that charged in other parts of Canada. If these branch lines were consolidated and under the control of one of the Transcontinental railways, they would be operated more cheaply, give a more efficient service, and at the same or less cost than at present.

At the time of confederation, there was an agreement to build a railroad from Truro, in the province of Nova Scotia, to Riviere du Loup, in the province of Quebec, for the general advantage of Canada. It was extended to St. John and Halifax for the purpose of extending the trade of the country, affording facilities for the ports of the provinces of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia. It was further extended to Sydney and Cape Breton by acquiring the eastern extension, and the government concluded that it should be further extended to Levis and Montreal, and they acquired the Drummond line and also rights over the Grand Mr. PICKUP.

Trunk railway to Montreal. The province of Nova Scotia built a line between Pictou and Oxford Junction which became part of the Intercolonial railway, as also did the Canada Eastern. It seems that the government, recognizing the importance of taking over branch lines in the interest of the people and also building up the Intercolonial railway, found that it was good busit ness in the interest of both. Last year the government appointed a commission todook into the branch lines of the Intercolonial railway, and I have their report which gives the physical conditions of the roads, and also recommendations showing the advantage those roads will afford to the Intercolonial railway, and their importance in the development of the natural resources of the districts through which they run, if taken over by the Intercolonial railway. Two paragraphs of the report are as follows:

The want of proper facilities for the conduct of even the existing traffic is detrimentally affecting the business interests of the districts interested in these branches, and preventing that development of industries, enhancement of property values, and general betterment that would undoubtedly

follow on an improved service.

***##*#

It is a well established fact that in nearly every case where branch lines have been absorbed by trunk lines, and extended markets have thus been opened up for business along the main line, such a policy has not only proved to be of great value to the branch lines themselves, but has provided additional revenue for the main line, they becoming valuable feeders, increasing the traffic and the earning powers of the trunk lines.

I have failed to find any report of the largest and most important branch line that would be a feeder to the Intercolonial railway. I refer to the Dominion Atlantic railway in the province of Nova Scotia, running through some of the best portions of Canada, including the famous ' Land of Evangeline,' which attracts thousands of tourists. This line runs between Halifax and Yarmouth, through the counties of Hants, Kings, Annapolis, Digby and Yarmouth, a distance of 217 miles, with a branch between Truro, in the county of Colchester, and Windsor, in the county of Hants, a distance of 584 miles, the Cornwallis Valley road, from Kentville to Kingsport, 144 miles, and Tor Brook line into the mines, 34 miles, making in all 2924 miles, including the Windsor Junction branch which is under lease from the Dominion government, and running rights between Windsor Junction and Halifax, 144 miles, and 4} miles of branch lines and spurs. Besides the counties named, this road serves to a less extent, the counties of Lunenburg, Shelburne and Queens, with a population of 260,385 people according to the census of 1901. The road is equipped

23 IS

and does a large business. For the year ending June 30, 1907, it shows net earnings of $280,586 on total of $778,572. Few roads in Canada can make as good a showing. The Dominion Atlantic railway earned $380,158 in passenger service and $398,414 from freight service in 1907, the highest -proportion of passenger traffic of- any road in Canada. This road would be valuable to one of the transcontinental railways, as the shortest, most direct and quickest means of communication between the west and Great Britain. By establishing a car ferry, running across the Bay of Fundy, 40 miles to Port Wade, and thence by rail to Halifax, 159 miles, it would afford the quickest route to deliver the passengers, mails and express parcels to Great Britain from the west, besides being valuable in directing passenger and freight traffic from the United States through Digby and Yarmouth. Also, the Halifax and Southwestern between Halifax and Yarmouth is also capable of very great development. New roads should be constructed in Inverness, Guysborough and the eastern part of the province. If these were consolidated and' acquired by one of the transcontinental' roads, with the condition and agreement that they take over the branch lines existing and construct new lines, no hardship would be involved, as this is in accord with their present policy. They should also find capital to develop the natural resources of the maritime provinces. By1 building hotels, developing mines, manufacturing and other resources, which is their policy, they would greatly promote their own interest.

Under the supervision of the Railway Commission, I believe it would be in the best interest of the maritime provinces and! the districts through which the system runs, to have the Intercolonial railway^ under the control and management of one of the transcontinental roads.

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LIB

Daniel Duncan McKenzie

Liberal

Mr. D. D. McKENZIE (Cape Breton North).

Had I known that so many hon. members wished to express their views upon this subject, I do not know that I should have come to any determination to speak upon it. But it is not often that a subject presents itself in the House that gives an opportunity to a representative from away down in the eastern part where I live an opportunity of dealing with matters of vital importance to his own part of the country. That being the case, I am pleased to take advantage of this opportunity to say something along the lines of the development of the country served by the Intercolonial or some other road that will or may take its place. It is a well-known fact that there is only room for one main line of railway in the province of Nova Scotia, particularly in the eastern part. We differ in this regard from Quebec, Ontario and the 744

wider fields of the west, where almost any number of roads can parallel one another with ample room and plenty of trade for all. In the comparatively narrow peninsula of Nova Scotia, with one main line stretching along that country, there is no room for another line to parallel it. East of Amherst you cannot be more than fifty miles from the sea at any point. That fact shows that the territory is comparatively narrow, and, with the industries we have, it will readily be admitted that we have not more than will satisfactorily feed one great line of railway. That being the case, we are dependent largely on the way the Intercolonial railway, which is now there, conducts itself in the way of the extension of its branches and in its management of the business within the scope of the road as now located. My great trouble, and the trouble of my people, is not so much with the management of the Intercolonial railway as with the extent of it. If we had more Intercolonial railway we should have very little fault to find. But our difficulty is that the Intercolonial railway does not stretch itself along the country rapidly enough. If it is the pronounced policy of the government, if we are to understand from the government and the Minister of Railways that they have gone as far as they intend to go, that they have reached their limit, that they do not propose to make any further extension to reach out into the territories where we have no railways, I would at once fall in line with the resolution of the hon. member for Hants (Mr. Black) and say: Take away this management and

give us something else, with the hope that that something else will do better than the Intercolonial railway is doing. I may briefly describe to the government and the Minister of Railways the history of Intercolonial extension so far as Nova Scotia is concerned. It was not the Intercolonial that built from New Glasgow to the Strait of Canso, though the road thus built became a part of the Intercolonial after a few years. The prophecy was then made that the traffic of that part of the Toad would not pay for grease for the axles, that it would be a dead failure. It was, on the contrary, a great success as a railway enterprise and is a most profitable part of the Intercolonial. It was operated for about ten years before it was extended further. We in the beautiful island of Cape Breton may be excused if we thought it long because for those ten years the road was allowed to stand at the Strait of Canso _ and we had not a foot of railway on the" island of Cape Breton. After ten years the road was extended from the Strait of Canso to the city of Sydney, then the town of Sydney, with a branch to North Sydney, where I myself reside. What is the history of this road in the Island of Cane Breton? I venture to say that there is not another section

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[DOT]of the Intercolonial that has such a magnificent traffic as that of this section.

I can point to one company that last year paid no less than $160,000 in cash for the handling of their freight traffic, without making any mention of the passenger traffic on that road. When I talk about extensions into the island of Cape Breton I have something substantial to talk about. We have had the main extension into the island since 1892. Since then great developments have arisen in the island. We have to-day the greatest industries of the kind, I presume, in the whole of Canada, in the island of Cape Breton. All of them were organized since the days of the extension of the Intercolonial railway. I do not say that the Intercolonial railway is entitled to all the credit, but it was of course a great factor in bringing about the important industries that we have to-day. The hon. member for Hants (Mr. Black) has made reference to Mr. Butler leaving the management of the Intercolonial railway. When Mr. Butler left the government employ he left what is regarded as a very lucrative position. The government could not afford to pay him any more money, but I think that when four times the amount he was receiving from the government is paid to him by one small company in Cape Breton, from which I come, it gives me some strength when I ask that some money be expended in the further development of this great island of Cape Breton. The principal resources that are n

successful results of the expenditure to extend the Intercolonial railway into a certain section of the country and when we show that with the proper development of the materials that exist in other sections of the country similar results will follow. It has been brought out in this House that we buy our fish at two prices in Ontario and other western provinces, in Quebec, and even amongst ourselves at certain seasons of the year and that we have to buy fish that has gone around by Boston and other United States cities and come back to us. It is a most extraordinary state of affairs and one which you could hardly make a stranger believe. Notwithstanding, such is the case. What is the difficulty? The difficulty is that we have not facilities for catching the fish in our own country. Take for instance, a part of my own riding of Victoria; We have on the eastern coast of that county about seventy miles of the best fishing grounds that we have in any part of the maritime provinces and, when you compare any fishing grounds in the maritime provinces you are comparing them with the best fishing grounds in the world. But the difficulty is that for thirty-four miles of that distance of seventy miles there is not a single harbour that you can approach with safety in a storm. What is the result? The fisherman will not go out if he finds any prospect that he cannot get back. If he sees a storm coming on and if he has to face the rocks and there is no harbour for which he can steer his craft he will not go out in the morning at all because the safety of himself and his property and the security and support of his family are of greater importance to him than any money he might make upon any certain day and therefore he stays at home. If we had a railway along that coast and if we had a few hundred thousand dollars expended in opening a few of the harbours that are almost finished now we could every day go out and fish because we would know that we had a haven that we could steer for any time a storm might come up. That condition is not only true in my own county but it is also true as respects Guys-borough, Inverness and Richmond. When we are talking about stretching out the arms of the Intercolonial railway, we are asking them either to let us take our chances with some other company or let the government look carefully into this thing and no longer stand still but extend its branches into different parts where it is necessary. I pointed out a moment ago that we had only really one great railway in Nova Scotia. If these branches are not built by the Intercolonial railway no company will build them. No company except the Intercolonial railway would build them because the lines would be too short and it would not pay. We have a sample of that in the

small railway that was built from the Strait of Canso to St. Peters. It is too short a line to pay without connection with the larger system. Therefore, we must ask the main system to build branches, whether that main system be owned by the government, or whether some company takes the place of the government. Sometimes, when we from the maritime provinces, representing these large counties and these large interests, prevail upon the Minister of Finance to help the fishermen with a landing or in other matters along the same line we are criticised unfairly by hon. gentlemen of the opposition when we get this money on the ground that we have obtained it not .for the development of the country but with some other motive, and that it is squandered and used for election purposes and no other purposes whatever. I think I can say here with the greatest boldness that in the province of Nova Scotia and particularly in that part known as the island of Cape Breton I will challenge any man in this House or out of it to show where one dollar of any money that has been voted for the last thirteen years has been mis-spent or squandered in any section of the country. We have a most vigilant opposition. I have sat in this House for a little while and I have watched its proceedings. Not one of these vigilant and energetic searchers out of trouble has put his finger on one dollar that has been spent improperly in connection with public works in Cape Breton or Nova Scotia.

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CON

John Waterhouse Daniel

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DANIEL.

I would like to ask the hon. member whether it was absolutely necessary in the interest of good government to have all those fishery commissioners appointed in the hon. gentleman's own constituency just before the last election?

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LIB

Daniel Duncan McKenzie

Liberal

Mr. McKENZIE.

I certainly say that in so far as I know they were appointed in the interest of the fishery protection. It shows the extremities to which people are dr',' en in endeavouring to find fault with any expenditure in that province that they hi vp to come down to the paltry question of whether in the whole of the large county of Victoria, with a coast line, including the inland waters, of something over 150 miles, there were too manv fishery inspectors or not. With all this coast line, with the streams and creeks which require protection, with the northern part of Cape Bieton which is in my riding also extending to the Gulf of St. Lawrence and with the inland waters of the Bras d'Or lakes, there happened to be in that year ten guardians in the whole of those two counties more than there had been for the last ten years. It is mentioned to-day as a ereat scandal that these ten have been appointed, but I believe that they have rendered

valuable service to the country and I think it was found necessary to reappoint them last year notwithstanding the severe criticism in the press and in the House.

I have no desire to appoint too many guardians, but if the hon. gentleman ever exercised patronage in any county he represented he will know that ten times as many people will be looking for a position as can be appointed. It is not an easy matter for the member to tell the exact number that will be required, but he can send the applicants to the inspector and if he takes them on well and good. That is what has happened in my county, and if there is anything wrong about it it is a thing that happens in the greater part of Canada where a member is called upon to exercise patronage. It would appear that this is the only criticism of a public expenditure in the last 13 years in the whole province of Nova Scotia and possibly in the maritime provinces at large, that the hon. member has to make.

My purpose in rising Mr. Speaker, was to bring to the attention of the government and the House the disabilities we labour under in the island of Cape Breton and in the county of Guysboro -which may be called the non-railway counties. I submit that it is up to the government now to extend the Intercolonial railway into these counties, and if the government does not do so then it should induce some other concern to take hold of the railway on condition that that other concern will engage in that development which the government does not think it advisable to undertake. That is my position in this matter. When wre from the maritime provinces seek for the expenditure of public money to develop our country and to assist our fishermen and agriculturists and miners, we do desire to have the sympathy of members of the opposition as I think we should have it. We are proud to assent in public moneys being expended for the development of the far west. The-farmers of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta, have abundance of wheat but it is of little value to them unless they have-a railway to take it to the markets and' the same is true of the farmers and fishermen of Nova Scotia. The fishermen may-have abundance of fish but if he cannot-transport it to the market regularly it is of no use to him. We all concede that the farmers of the west should have facilities for transporting their abundance of wheat, and the same is equally applicable to the farmer, fisherman, and the miner in the east who must have transportation facilities if he is to reap the reward of his industry. We have a most excellent market for almost everything the farmer or fisherman can produce on the island of Cape Breton, but we have no system of regular

transportation. The hotel keeper must know that a supply of fish and eggs and other products will be at his disposal regularly every day, and while the man in the northern part of the county of Victoria may have abundance of these things, yet he cannot guarantee a regular supply to the hotel keeper, and the hotel keeper cannot deal with him. He wants a railway by which we can be assured that day after day when we put the products of our fisheries and our farms on board the train they will be delivered at the market on schedule time. It is for the lack of such facilities that our people are suffering. I shall not commit myself one way or the other upon this resolution. I simply say to the government that the position we take in my county is that we are perfectly satisfied with the Intercolonial railway provided we get enough of it and provided it is extended into districts where we have no railroads now. My hon. friend from Hants exclaimed: God save us from the peoples' railway, and if we are not to have railway facilities provided by the government we would almost be inclined to join with him in calling on some higher power io remove that dog-in-the-manger policy, and to seek some means which will assist in the development of the industries of our country.

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January 24, 1910