December 10, 1909

CON

Thomas Simpson Sproule

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SPEOULE.

If there was a sessional order which said that two men could not sit for the same seat, would not that rule determine the question without any statute?

Topic:   SUPPLY-FISHERIES COMMISSION.
Subtopic:   REPRESENTATION OF QUEBEC EAST AND OTTAWA.
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LIB

Louis-Philippe Brodeur (Minister of Marine and Fisheries)

Liberal

Mr. BEODEUE.

In my judgment the question of the qualification of a member to sit in this House is a statutory matter.

Topic:   SUPPLY-FISHERIES COMMISSION.
Subtopic:   REPRESENTATION OF QUEBEC EAST AND OTTAWA.
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CON

Thomas Simpson Sproule

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SPEOULE.

' Then why don't they have such a statute in England? In England that question is regulated by a sessional order and not by statute.

Topic:   SUPPLY-FISHERIES COMMISSION.
Subtopic:   REPRESENTATION OF QUEBEC EAST AND OTTAWA.
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CON

John Graham Haggart

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HAGGAET.

Topic:   SUPPLY-FISHERIES COMMISSION.
Subtopic:   REPRESENTATION OF QUEBEC EAST AND OTTAWA.
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LIB

Louis-Philippe Brodeur (Minister of Marine and Fisheries)

Liberal

Mr. BEODEUE.

We have not adopted the same procedure in Canada with regard to that matter, and my hon. friend from Dauphin (Mr. Campbell) understanding the principle which guides us has introduced a Bill declaring what shall be done by those that have been elected by more than one constituency.

Topic:   SUPPLY-FISHERIES COMMISSION.
Subtopic:   REPRESENTATION OF QUEBEC EAST AND OTTAWA.
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CON

Glenlyon Campbell

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CAMPBELL.

Does the hon. minister then say that my method is better than the method suggested by the Speaker in his ruling?

Topic:   SUPPLY-FISHERIES COMMISSION.
Subtopic:   REPRESENTATION OF QUEBEC EAST AND OTTAWA.
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LIB

Louis-Philippe Brodeur (Minister of Marine and Fisheries)

Liberal

Mr. BEODEUE.

I do not say that the amendment proposed in the Bill of the hon. member (Mr. Campbell) is a good one, but 1 say that in introducing such a Bill he has followed the proper procedure. Such a question is to be determined, not by a rule of the House, but by the statute concerning the House of Commons. That statute provides, when the members come to take their seats in the House of Commons, whether they have a right to sit here or not, and the rules of the House are intended to determine the manner of our proceedings after the members have established their right to sit. My hon. friend from Dauphin (Mr. Campbell), in the procedure adopted by him in introducing his Bill, has shown a knowledge of correct procedure which commends itself to those who have studied the question.

Topic:   SUPPLY-FISHERIES COMMISSION.
Subtopic:   REPRESENTATION OF QUEBEC EAST AND OTTAWA.
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CON

Arthur Meighen

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN.

Does not the hon. minister realize that the affirmation of this resolution covers all the sessional orders that were in force in England on the 1st of July, 1867, and that the Bill of my hon. friend (Mr. Campbell) only refers to one of them?

Topic:   SUPPLY-FISHERIES COMMISSION.
Subtopic:   REPRESENTATION OF QUEBEC EAST AND OTTAWA.
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LIB

Louis-Philippe Brodeur (Minister of Marine and Fisheries)

Liberal

Mr. BEODEUE.

I am dealing now with the form of procedure. The question of the standing orders of this House is a most important one, and one which should be dealt with after it has been considered by a committee of this House which can give it mature judgment and deliberation. There is no standing rule as to the manner in which we should make our rules, but Bouri-not and May and all the parliamentary authorities lay it down that no rules of the House should be amended until they have been considered in committee. .

Topic:   SUPPLY-FISHERIES COMMISSION.
Subtopic:   REPRESENTATION OF QUEBEC EAST AND OTTAWA.
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CON

Arthur Meighen

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN.

I am not asking for any amendment to the rules of the House.

Topic:   SUPPLY-FISHERIES COMMISSION.
Subtopic:   REPRESENTATION OF QUEBEC EAST AND OTTAWA.
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LIB

Louis-Philippe Brodeur (Minister of Marine and Fisheries)

Liberal

Mr. BEODEUE.

But, my hon. friend is seeking to put an interpretation upon a rule of the House, and whether he is right or wrong in his view, it should first have full and mature consideration by a committee of this House.

Topic:   SUPPLY-FISHERIES COMMISSION.
Subtopic:   REPRESENTATION OF QUEBEC EAST AND OTTAWA.
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LIB

Frederick William Borden (Minister of Militia and Defence)

Liberal

Mr. E. L. BOEDEN.

Is the hon. minister aware that the most important change ever made in the rules of the British

House of Commons was made without any reference whatever to a committee?

Topic:   SUPPLY-FISHERIES COMMISSION.
Subtopic:   REPRESENTATION OF QUEBEC EAST AND OTTAWA.
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LIB

Louis-Philippe Brodeur (Minister of Marine and Fisheries)

Liberal

Mr. BRODEUR.

To what does the hon. gentleman refer?

Topic:   SUPPLY-FISHERIES COMMISSION.
Subtopic:   REPRESENTATION OF QUEBEC EAST AND OTTAWA.
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CON

Robert Laird Borden (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. R. L. BORDEN.

I am referring to the first closure resolutions which were moved in the House -by Mr. Gladstone and which were not referred to a committee.

Topic:   SUPPLY-FISHERIES COMMISSION.
Subtopic:   REPRESENTATION OF QUEBEC EAST AND OTTAWA.
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LIB

Louis-Philippe Brodeur (Minister of Marine and Fisheries)

Liberal

Mr. BRODEUR.

I think my hon. friend is right in that respect. It was passed by the House almost unanimously and without any great debate; but he must admit that the procedure we have followed in this House, when we have made or amended any of our rules, has been to refer those rules to a committee to be fully considered.

Topic:   SUPPLY-FISHERIES COMMISSION.
Subtopic:   REPRESENTATION OF QUEBEC EAST AND OTTAWA.
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CON

Robert Laird Borden (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. R. L. BORDEN.

I am not criticising that practice at all. I was simply saying that it was something departed from, and I did not consider this to be a proposal to amend the rule.

Topic:   SUPPLY-FISHERIES COMMISSION.
Subtopic:   REPRESENTATION OF QUEBEC EAST AND OTTAWA.
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LIB

Louis-Philippe Brodeur (Minister of Marine and Fisheries)

Liberal

Mr. BRODEUR.

It amounts to the same thing.

Topic:   SUPPLY-FISHERIES COMMISSION.
Subtopic:   REPRESENTATION OF QUEBEC EAST AND OTTAWA.
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CON

Robert Laird Borden (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. R. L. BORDEN.

Allow me to make myself clear. Suppose, for example, that there had been an inadvertent decision denying the right of a man to move an amendment on going into Supply, and on the day alter some hon. member should declare that according to the rules and usages of the British House of Commons or of this House no hon. member has the right to move an amendment to Supply. This is precisely of the same nature.

Topic:   SUPPLY-FISHERIES COMMISSION.
Subtopic:   REPRESENTATION OF QUEBEC EAST AND OTTAWA.
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LIB

Louis-Philippe Brodeur (Minister of Marine and Fisheries)

Liberal

Mr. BRODEUR.

I cannot admit that. The interpretation which my hon. friend wants to put upon the first of our rules is a most important one, and before the House passes judgment upon it, I think it should be fully considered by a committee of this House or by the full House in committee. That has been our procedure in the past. Let us consider for a moment what the declaration is which we are called upon to make:

That in the judgment of this House the sessional orders of the House of Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland in force on the first day of July, 1867, are within the meaning of the words, ' rules, usages and forms of proceeding/ as contained in rule 1 of the rules of the House of Commons of Canada.

I say this is a most serious declaration. What are we asked to embody in it? We are asked to embody rules which for forty years this parliament has not been supposed to put in force. I think, before we incorporate in our rules the important declaration made in this motion, we should inquire a little to find out how far we would be going by such a declaration. My hon. friend may be right in his interpretation of the law; but at the same time is it

advisable to adopt a sweeping declaration of that kind without having a committee of this House to investigate fully how far it would carry us? I may say that I do not think the procedure which my hon. friend is following is the proper procedure, and for this reason. My hon. friend knows that when a decision has been rendered by the Speaker, that decision stands as final unless there is an appeal from it. Rule 18 says:

The Speaker may permit debate of the point of order before rendering his decision, but such debate must be strictly relevant to the point of order taken. The Speaker shall decide upon the point of order, which decision shall be subject to appeal to the House, but without debate. If there be no appeal, the decision of the Chair shall be final. ,

If I remember rightly, my hon. friend himself raised the question the other day, and appealed to the Speaker for a decision.

A. decision was rendered by the Speaker, and that was final unless an appeal was taken from it.

Topic:   SUPPLY-FISHERIES COMMISSION.
Subtopic:   REPRESENTATION OF QUEBEC EAST AND OTTAWA.
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CON

Robert Laird Borden (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. R. L. BORDEN.

What was the point of order Mr. Speaker decided?

Topic:   SUPPLY-FISHERIES COMMISSION.
Subtopic:   REPRESENTATION OF QUEBEC EAST AND OTTAWA.
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December 10, 1909