May 13, 1909

CON

Robert Laird Borden (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. R. L. BORDEN.

Did my hon. friend give the names?

Topic:   PRIVILEGE-THE VOTE ON THE NEW BRUNSWICK CENTRAL RAILWAY MATTER.
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LIB

William Samuel Calvert

Liberal

Mr. CALVERT.

I gave the names to my hon. friend the member for Peel.

Topic:   PRIVILEGE-THE VOTE ON THE NEW BRUNSWICK CENTRAL RAILWAY MATTER.
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CON

Robert Laird Borden (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. R. L. BORDEN.

Was the name of the hon. member for Gloucester (Mr. Tur-geon) given?

Topic:   PRIVILEGE-THE VOTE ON THE NEW BRUNSWICK CENTRAL RAILWAY MATTER.
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LIB

William Samuel Calvert

Liberal

Mr. CALVERT.

Yes, I have the card in my desk now in the whips' room. I can show it to you, and I can show it _ to my hon. friend from Peel, and it contains the names of Mr. Turgeon, Mr. Nesbitt, Air. Todd, Mr. Carvell and Dr. McAllister. I said that while perhaps not all of these would speak I expected that most of them would. I put their names on the very

envelope that I showed to my hon. friend and I have the names of the Conservative members on one side and the Liberal members on the other. When I was asked by many of my friends if the vote would take place before eight o'clock, I said no, that it would be impossible. I accepted that as the statement of my hon. friend as to the arrangement of the debate, and I expected that it would be continued from one side to the other as has been usual for many years. Consequently when the debate came to an end I was very much surprised, just as other members of the House were. I am quite sure there was nothing wrong so far as we were concerned, nor do I know that the assistant whip intended to take any advantage, because it may have been an accident that a member from the opposition side did not rise. At the same time it was understood and expected that the debate would be -continued and that the leader of the opposition, the member for Toronto (Mr. Foster) and the hon. member (Mr. Doherty) would speak on the opposition side. I was very sorry I did not hear what my hon. friend had to say, but I know that we were endeavouring to -carry out the arangement in good faith, and I would like it to be understood that there was nothing done by this side of the House that was not done in good faith. Neither do I suppose that there was any intention on the other side not to carry out the arangement in good faith, and consequently if thp debate had been carried on as has been customary it would have continued until the middle of the night.

Topic:   PRIVILEGE-THE VOTE ON THE NEW BRUNSWICK CENTRAL RAILWAY MATTER.
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CON

Robert Laird Borden (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. R. L. BORDEN.

It would be far better if matters of this kind were brought up and dealt with in the House in the first instance. I may say that so far as I am concerned I absolutely heard of no agreement whatever that we would be responsible for continuing the debate until any particular time. The only negotiation I had on the subject was with the Prime Minister, who expressed to me the hope that the debate would be concluded on Thursday. That is the only expression or desire that I heard from him and so far as the continuance to a particular hour is concerned my hon. friend will recollect that it was perfectly open to any gentleman on the other side to have continued that debate and to have seen to it that it did not come to a vote before eight o'clock. We accept absolutely no responsibility.

Topic:   PRIVILEGE-THE VOTE ON THE NEW BRUNSWICK CENTRAL RAILWAY MATTER.
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LIB

William Samuel Calvert

Liberal

Mr. CALVERT.

We intended to close the debate on Thursday, but we found that, with the number of gentlemen who intended to -speak, it would be almost impossible to do so, and then we wished some arrangement whereby we could reduce the number of speakers and that is what we were endeavouring to do.

Topic:   PRIVILEGE-THE VOTE ON THE NEW BRUNSWICK CENTRAL RAILWAY MATTER.
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CON

Robert Laird Borden (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. R. L. BORDEN.

The whole question was a question of reducing the number of hon. gentlemen who would speak and of limiting the time, so far as I know.

Topic:   PRIVILEGE-THE VOTE ON THE NEW BRUNSWICK CENTRAL RAILWAY MATTER.
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GEORGIAN BAY CANAL.

CON

John Allister Currie

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. J. A. CURRIE. (North Simcoe).

Before the Orders of the Day are called I wish to ask the leader of the government if there has come to his- cognizance a petition or round robin that is being circulated by lobbyists in the corridors of the House asking the signatures of members to support a guarantee of this country to an expenditure with respect to the Georgian Bay canal? Would the Prime Minister state the intention of the government as to putting through a measure before the end of the session, with a view to the people of this country guaranteeing an expenditure of three million dollars in reference to that matter.

Topic:   GEORGIAN BAY CANAL.
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LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER.

I may say to my hon. friend that this is the first intimation I have had of the existence of such a document, and so far as concerns important measures to be brought down by the government everything is on the table to-day.

Topic:   GEORGIAN BAY CANAL.
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THE OLD FORT TORONTO.

CON

George Eulas Foster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOSTER.

There is an old question winch I asked some time ago and the Minister of Militia was kind enough to say he would answer it. It is with reference to the Old Fort property in the city of Toronto.

I would like to get from him a statement as to the condition of that property, as to whether a deed has been given to the city, and as to what are the conditions of the deed, especially in reference to restrictions upon the use of these grounds for street railway purposes or any other than park purposes.

Topic:   THE OLD FORT TORONTO.
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LIB

Frederick William Borden (Minister of Militia and Defence)

Liberal

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN.

It is quite true that my hon. friend (Mr. Foster) spoke to me about this matter as long ago as the 14th of April. Unfortunately, I was ill and, for several days, was not in the House, and since that time no opportunity,

I believe, has offered for a statement. All the papers in regard to this matter, covering the negotiations which rook place between the city of Toronto and the Militia Department and the government, were laid on the table of the House two or three years ago. There is really nothing new in the matter since that time, except that a rumor has been current-in fact, I think it was a matter of public discussion in the city of Toronto-that it was proposed to allow the street railway to pass through the old fort to the exhibition grounds. That question having come to the front, and opposition having been made to it-that is, as to the street railway passing through- Mr. CALVERT.

by certain societies, historical societies, and others, the matter has been discussed and there has been a good deal of correspondence. The situation at the present moment is this: Letters patent by the Department of the Interior, from whom the title proceeds, are now being prepared which will contain the following clause:

To have and to hold the same

That is the property to be conveyed, including all the property, some two hundred acres, of which, of course, the old fort is only a small portion. This, it will be understood, is to convey the garrison common property to the city of Toronto, one of the conditions being:

To have and to hold the same unto the said the corporation of the city of Toronto, its successors and assigns, so long as the same are, and upon, and subject to the trust and conditions, that the same shall be subject to the proviso hereinafter expressed and contained, that the site of the old fort, situated within the limits of the land hereby conveyed shall, as far as possible, be restored to its original condition as shown on the attached copy

Which is made a part of the conveyance.

-of a plan of the old fort prepared by G. Nichols, government engineer, and dated, Quebec, 24th June, 1816, and that the same shall be preserved and maintained in such condition for ever.

So far as the proposal to run a line of street cars is concerned, I may say that there is an old road, a road which has always existed, I believe, running through the old fort property, and the city of Toronto authorities desired that the line of street railway shall pass along that old road through the old fort to the exhibition grounds. Now, recently the mayor of the city waited upon me and told me that he believed an alternative route had been discovered by the use of which, it would be unnecessary to carry the line of street railway or any portion of it through the old fort. He could not speak positively, but he hoped such would be the case. I have not thought it necessary to include in the deed any prohibition against putting the railway through the old fort, because I think it is quite safe to leave in the hands of the city of Toronto, whose people are more interested than anybody else, the question as to whether that street Tailway line shall pass through on this road, or whether they shall find some other route. I am quite sure that the intention and desire is to get to the exhibition property without trespassing in any way on the old fort. In any case, the plan of the proposed restoration of the fort and everything that is to be done with reference to the property will be filed with the government before any action can be taken by the city.

Topic:   THE OLD FORT TORONTO.
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SUPPLY-FULL PARTNERSHIP UNION BETWEEN GREAT BRITAIN AND HER COLONIES.

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Right Hon. S@

FIELDING (Minister of Finance) moved that the House go again into Committee of Supply.

Topic:   SUPPLY-FULL PARTNERSHIP UNION BETWEEN GREAT BRITAIN AND HER COLONIES.
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Mr. SAM@

HUGHES (Victoria and Hali-burton) moved in amendment:

That in the opinion of this House the best interest of Canada, as well as of each component part of the British empire, would be served bv a full partnership union of Great Britain and Ireland and the colonies of Canada, New Zealand, Australia, South Africa and India; wherein, each retaining under its own control all matters specially concerning it, all would unite on an equable and independent footing, in a full partnership union government, dealing only with intraimperial, international, imperial fiscal and imperial defence questions.

He said: Mr. Speaker: In again presenting my old favourite motion for full partnership union between Great Britain and her colonies, I may say at the outset that I am-shall I -say very agreeably surprised-at all events, I am pleased, at the progress that has been made in the spirit of the people of Canada in relation to this issue during the past year. It is now two years since I had the honour of last presenting it to the House. On that occasion there was not very much enthusiasm for it, either in the House, or, I regret still more to say, in the country. However, even then the progress that had been made over former efforts was very gratifying, because, on former occasions, it was received absolutely with a wet blanket. I may explain that it is not my purpose, on this occasion, to divide the House. I do not wish, in any sense, to make this a party issue; I do not wish, in any sense, to place the government-this motion being one on going into Committee of Supply -in a position which would afford any excuse to any hon. member of this House for expressing by a vote any other than his own sentiments on this question. Therefore, my object being purely educational, purely academic so to speak, I have no intention of dividing the House on this issue. And I trust the day will never come when 'it will be necesary to divide the House on this question, but that in the very near future the members of both sides can join hands in loyally supporting this proposition. In answer to certain gentlemen, negative characters, such as are found in all communities, who look upon any agitation of this kind as a jingoistic or militarist agitation, I may say that my object in seeking this union is the maintenance of peace the wide world over. A distinguished German officer, not long since, pointed out that the peace of Europe has been preserved for more than a quarter of a century by the maintenance of an immense standing army in Germany. And one of the most distinguished German soldiers recently published an article which has attracted world-wide attention, an article of such importance that the Emperor William summoned his leading officers to meet him on New Year's day last, and himself read this article to them. One sentence in that article, I will read so that hon. members may see that the best guarantee for peace is to be ready for war. This officer, Count Von Schleifen, one of the most distinguished officers of the German army, says:

Men warm and secure behind the walls of fortresses deemed impregnable are showing less and less desire to go out into the open and bare their breasts to the fight. Gun foundries, ammunition factories and steam hammers have done more to promote friendly relations and amicable concessions than any peace congress.

These are the views expressed by the Emperor of Germany, and they are views endorsed bv the best men of Europe and America to-day. Therefore, I need offer no apology for bringing this matter before the parliament of Canada. It is true I have received numerous communications and personal solicitations from a great many gentlemen throughout Canada to be careful of the ground I proceed on. Sir, I received the same warning long years ago when I was advocating colonial assistance in the wars of the Motherland, but I persevered. The politician in any land under responsible government is always cautious, and rightly or wrongly I feel, and I say it with all kindness, that I should pay very little attention to -the expressed opinions of the politicans of a country when they are not backed up by the voice of the people. The politician as a rule is just feeling the pulse of the people, and until" he feels that a movement has taken hold in their hearts he is cautious. I was warned, as the First Minister knows, and as my then leader, Sir Charles Tupper, knows, that in my movement for colonial assistance in the motherland wars I stood alone. But, Sir, when the issue rose it was found that it was these gentlemen and not I who stood alone. I have been told also that these great changes in the upbuilding of a country come by chance or just as the occasion demands. Sir, there never has been a single change in the upbuilding of liberty in any land that ever came by chance. It has come after years and years of agitation, years upon years of education, and in very many instances after years and years of stem fighting. Therefore I maintain in the first place, that no harm can come of discussions of

this kind, and in the second place, that the only way to arrive at a proper conclusion is by open and free discussion, and by eliminating what it is not necessary to have engrafted in any movement that may be for the well-being and. uplifting of a great nation, and of a free people.

Above all I am warned in this great country of Canada not to bring this motion forward for fear my French Canadian country men will be offended and will oppose it.

Topic:   SUPPLY-FULL PARTNERSHIP UNION BETWEEN GREAT BRITAIN AND HER COLONIES.
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LIB

Onésiphore Ernest Talbot

Liberal

Mr. TALBOT.

Where did you hear that?

Topic:   SUPPLY-FULL PARTNERSHIP UNION BETWEEN GREAT BRITAIN AND HER COLONIES.
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L-C

Samuel Hughes

Liberal-Conservative

Mr. HUGHES.

Not from my hon. friend opposite. I am proud to say that the first man on record in favour of a partnership union between Great Britain and her colonies was the French Canadian who spoke as I quoted two years ago, and Sir, my experience up and down the country is that the gentlemen who warned me to be aware of offending my French Canadian fellow-countrymen do not know whereof they speak because on every hand I find the French Canadians, once they understand the matter, heartily and openly endorsing it. I have the honour, just as much as any man ir. this House, to class myself as French Canadian.

Topic:   SUPPLY-FULL PARTNERSHIP UNION BETWEEN GREAT BRITAIN AND HER COLONIES.
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Some hon. MEMBERS

Hear, hear.

Topic:   SUPPLY-FULL PARTNERSHIP UNION BETWEEN GREAT BRITAIN AND HER COLONIES.
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May 13, 1909