April 27, 1909

CON

William Henry Sharpe

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. W. H. SHARPE.

Read it all.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE BUDGET.
Subtopic:   W. H. PRINCE, JAS. WILLIAMS,
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LIB

John Patrick Molloy

Liberal

Mr. MOLLOY.

I intend to read it all, but was giving it in junks on the instalment plan:

If they can find 106 Conservatives improperly put on that list or 106 Liberals improperly left off, I will resign my seat provided the hon. member for Brandon will agree to resign his, if his statements, are not true, as I claim they are not.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE BUDGET.
Subtopic:   W. H. PRINCE, JAS. WILLIAMS,
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?

Some hon. MEMBERS

Hear, hear.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE BUDGET.
Subtopic:   W. H. PRINCE, JAS. WILLIAMS,
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LIB

John Patrick Molloy

Liberal

Mr. MOLLOY.

The hon. member foT Lisgar must think we are pretty dense. He says: ' I will resign if so and so will.' But he knows full well that he cannot resign. There are just two ways in which he can avoid the election petition-by appointment to the Senate or death. We will take mighty good care that he will not get in the Senate for a long time to come, and I hope, as he is a fairly good fellow, that he will not die and avoid the petition in that way.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE BUDGET.
Subtopic:   W. H. PRINCE, JAS. WILLIAMS,
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CON

William Henry Sharpe

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. W. H. SHARPE.

I am just as free to resign my seat as the hon. member for Brandon (Mr. Sifton) is free to resign his.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE BUDGET.
Subtopic:   W. H. PRINCE, JAS. WILLIAMS,
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LIB

John Patrick Molloy

Liberal

Mr. MOLLOY.

The hon. member for Brandon did not say anything about resigning his seat. He has never been defeated He has had 25 years of parliamentary experience in this House and in the local legislature. He has been thirteen or fourteen years in this House, and when the hon. member for Lisgar (Mr. Sharpe) is a member of this House as long as my hon. friend, the ex-Minister of the Interior (Mr. Sifton), he will have something to boast about. I would advise my hon. friend from Lisgar to keep in mind the old maxim, that a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. If he should resign before the term of this parliament expires and face his electors in the county of Lisgar, he may not come back. Strange things happen in elections, and I would advise him to stick just as fast to his seat as he possibly can. He tried to get elected in 1904 but failed, but the lists perhaps did not then help him out as we believe they did the last time, which is the reason he is here now. So that I will close here, so far as that idle boast is concerned.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE BUDGET.
Subtopic:   W. H. PRINCE, JAS. WILLIAMS,
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CON

William Henry Sharpe

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. W. H. SHARPE.

It is no idle boast at all.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE BUDGET.
Subtopic:   W. H. PRINCE, JAS. WILLIAMS,
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LIB

John Patrick Molloy

Liberal

Mr. MOLLOY.

He knew he could not resign, and if he did resign he has every reason to believe he would not get back. If he will face the election petition, which I believe he will have to do, perhaps he will be very glad to resign. How would he like that? There is quite a diherence in doing a thing voluntarily and being compelled to do it; and the hon. member for Lisgar had better sit as close to his seat as he possibly can and just as long as he can, and we will take chances on his coming back on the next appeal to the people of Manitoba.

Now, I think I have disposed of the state-

ment that the judges make the list. There is one point in connection with the list on which I will barely touch. If the registration clerk is fair and honourable, no man gets on the list except the man who applies personally and takes his oath; and if that list is brought before the judge and revised by the judge, the judge is absolutely helpless unless somebody takes interest enough to appeal against a name. Names are appealed against by different people in different constituencies, and they are often upheld by the judge who declares that they have the right to be on, and I think in the majority of cases they have the right to be on. We have every confidence in the judges of Manitoba. But the fact that the list can be stuffed was sworn to by Judge Ryan of Portage la Prairie, an appointee of the Canadian government in this investigation which went back only to the list of 1908 and which the government would not carry back to 1903. Judge Ryan, who is one of the ablest and most reputable men in Manitoba, said that the list could be stuffed. He did not pretend to have knowledge of it being done, but I say it has been done and I say that men from the province of Manitoba in this House believe-or, at least, they have good reason to believe-that it has been done.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE BUDGET.
Subtopic:   W. H. PRINCE, JAS. WILLIAMS,
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CON

William D. Staples

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. STAPLES.

Read what Judge Ryan said on that point.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE BUDGET.
Subtopic:   W. H. PRINCE, JAS. WILLIAMS,
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LIB

John Patrick Molloy

Liberal

Mr. MOLLOY.

You read it. The hon. gentleman asks: Will this government appoint a Royal Commission? I will send him back to his political chum the hon. member for Lisgar of the province of Manitoba to ask them to grant the commission that is practically demanded by the people of Manitoba to determine whether the lists in Manitoba are stuffed, and whether the system of appeal on the lists is fair and square. And let them go back to the year 1903, and we will undertake to prove, as I have said before, not only that the list was unfair, but that it was the most unjust list in the Dominion of Canada. That is the reason the members for Manitoba sitting on the other side of the House are so much in love with that system-because it had a good deal to do with them getting to this House in the election of October 26, 1908.

Something was said here the other night [DOT]-and I think the statement was challenged -as to the prostitution, of justice in the province of Manitoba. Justice is being prostituted in certain cases for political effect. And I am making the statement that it has been done in my own county; and I make the statement also that I believe these cases are known to hon. members from the province of Manitoba. I will mention one,-the case of Dominion City. The party there was sentenced by the

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE BUDGET.
Subtopic:   W. H. PRINCE, JAS. WILLIAMS,
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LIB

John Patrick Molloy

Liberal

Mr. MOLLOY.

e magistrate appointed by the Attorney Gen-l eral's department of the province of Mani-

- toba to a term in the common gaol. The l party was taken to Winnipeg, but great

- political influence was brought to bear- f at least the local member for that county 1 thought so,-and it is a matter of history r that that party was back in Dominion City t the same day and before the constable who s had taken the one convicted to Winnineg.

; That cannot and will not be denied by any 3 man from the province of Manitoba.

* Mr. STAPLES. What was the name of ' the person?

* Mr. MOLLOY. Krivel. Then, take the ! Lac du Bonnet liquor case. The house of a i man there was, to use the common expres-i sion, ' pulled,' and he was fined for running l what is commonly known as a ' blind pig.'

>

But the party thus fined was an active ; political worker, and this was during the , election of 1904. The magistrate received a . telegram signed ' Colin H. Campbell,' * Do . nothing in the Lac du Bonnet case until

you hear from me,' or words to that effect. And nothing has been done from that day to this. If my memory serves me well, there have been 40 odd political cases since the present Attorney General took office-40 odd charges including arrests. And I will ask the hon. member for Macdonald (Mr. Staples) ot any other hon. member from the province of Manitoba, to name a case where a man was charged with a political offence and was ever brought to trial by the Attorney General's Department. The last is the celebrated Ingram case in Brandon. This man had acted as returning officer in the last Dominion election. Was he brought to trial? No. He was arrested, not prosecuted but persecuted, for political effect, and they tried to make a deal with the Liberal party, and according to the statement of Ingram they failed to make the deal and did not carry on the case. They dare not carry on this case and they know it.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE BUDGET.
Subtopic:   W. H. PRINCE, JAS. WILLIAMS,
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CON

Frederick Laurence Schaffner

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SOHAFFNER.

Tell the House what Ingram did.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE BUDGET.
Subtopic:   W. H. PRINCE, JAS. WILLIAMS,
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LIB

John Patrick Molloy

Liberal

Mr. MOLLOY.

I will tell what he did, and I will tell everything he did. I have already told what action the department took to punish the crime.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE BUDGET.
Subtopic:   W. H. PRINCE, JAS. WILLIAMS,
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CON

Frederick Laurence Schaffner

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SCHAFFNER.

Tell about the prosecution.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE BUDGET.
Subtopic:   W. H. PRINCE, JAS. WILLIAMS,
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LIB

John Patrick Molloy

Liberal

Mr. MOLLOY.

There was no prosecution and he knows it. So far as the remarks of the hon. member for Dauphin (Mr. Campbell) are concerned, that hon. member' is a personal friend of mine. It is not necessary for me to deal with any statements he made. My hon. friend from Humboldt (Mr. Neely) handled the ' Tall Pine ' from Dauphin to a finish the other night. It will be quite a while before the hon. member for Dauphin will make

an insinuation, much more a charge, while he is a member of this House.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE BUDGET.
Subtopic:   W. H. PRINCE, JAS. WILLIAMS,
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CON

William D. Staples

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. STAPLES.

He made a charge.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE BUDGET.
Subtopic:   W. H. PRINCE, JAS. WILLIAMS,
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LIB

John Patrick Molloy

Liberal

Mr. MOLLOY.

He did not. He hinted at what he thought had been told by a another man who, he said, occupied a seat in this House, but he did not make a charge. And no man sitting to your left, Mr. Speaker, has dared, since 1896, to make a charge against any hon. member of this government, present or past.

So far as the remarks relating to the Grand Trunk Pacific are concerned, I am sure that I never heard of any Conservative in Manitoba opposing the building of that road. Though they spoke of it as an enormous cost to the people, they were afraid to say-at least they did not say-that they were opposed to the building of the road. They did not care apparently what it cost so long as they could convince the people that they were in sympathy with the building of the road and that the road would be built. And I think that in that they took proper ground. I think that their constituents, whether they ever return them to this House again or not, will appreciate their action in relation to the Transcontinental. There are few men west of the lakes, whether Liberal or Conservative, who will oppose the building of the Transcontinental. Liberals would not be here if they opposed it, and some Conservatives who are here would never have had seats in this House had they dared to oppose, even in the most feeble way, the building of this road.

As regards the remarks oi the hon. member for Dauphin (Mr. Campbell) regarding the tariff question, I am sorry for him. He is the only one, however, west of the lake who bears the name of Conservative, who dared to get up in his place in this House and say he was a protectionist. He said it out and out, and in a manly way, and I give the member for Dauphin credit for that. But I must say this, that I believe he has made a mistake, and the proof of that will appear when he appeals to his constituents again. But that of course is his own business. I am glad from a party point of view that he made the statement, because I believe it will be his undoing. Personally I am sorry for him. The hon. member for Macdonald (Mr. Staples) did not state that he was a protectionist, not yet; nor did the hon. member for Souris (Mr. Schaffner) state that he was a protectionist, although he did move a resolution asking this government to reduce the tariff on implements from 17J to 10 per cent. But the people of Manitoba have a pretty good idea of the stand the Conservative party takes on the tariff. I am free to state the stand I take on the tariff, regardless of who is in power, regardless of the fact that I am a supporter of the Liberal government. I say here that I would not support an in-160S

crease in the tariff. It is wrong from a western point of view. 1 believe the consumer pays the duty, and I believe the consumer west of the lakes has a greater need of a reduction in the tariff than he has of an increase in the tariff, so far as the necessaries of life are concerned. Therefore I will not support any increase in the tariff, I do not care whether a Liberal or a Conservative government is in power.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE BUDGET.
Subtopic:   W. H. PRINCE, JAS. WILLIAMS,
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CON

Frederick Laurence Schaffner

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SCHAFFNER.

To what extent would you vote for a reduction of the tariff?

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE BUDGET.
Subtopic:   W. H. PRINCE, JAS. WILLIAMS,
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LIB

John Patrick Molloy

Liberal

Mr. MOLLOY.

Lower than you would. The hon. member for Selkirk (Mr. Bradbury) threw a number ot bouquets to the Liberal government for Manitoba, and I do not blame him. I do not blame any Conservative member from the province of Manitoba who will stand up and support, so far as they dare, and as long as they dare, the party that holds sway in the province of Manitoba, for they have been a great help to the Conservative party in the Dominion in the past. They may be a great help to it in the future, but we do not think so, for we believe they will not be there. The hon. member for Selkirk says the present premier of Manitoba is the best they have ever nad, but I take issue with him. The best Conservative premier that Manitoba ever had was the honoured, the late lamented John Norquay, honest, great-hearted John Norquay. He was a good man, he meant well; but the other fellows, all they meant was to win, and they generally did it, and I give them a certain amount of credit for it. The hon. member for Selkirk, in praising the party that holds sway in Manitoba, did not tell us anything about the number of cheques that were proven before the Public Accounts Committee of Manitoba to have been paid in his constituency a few days prior to the last Dominion election. If my information is correct, there were 141 cheques for various amounts, signed on the 21st and the 22nd day of October. They were paid in some cases, if my information is correct, at the very polling booths on the 26th October, and the man that paid them took the train back to Winnipeg on the 27th day of October, and his name was Szablowski.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE BUDGET.
Subtopic:   W. H. PRINCE, JAS. WILLIAMS,
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CON

George Henry Bradbury

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BRADBURY.

I do not wish to interrupt the hon. gentleman in his romancing, but I just want to tell him that he is entirely wrong. I did tell the House that the government had done work in the constituency of Selkirk, I told the House that they had received unfair criticism for trying to drain a district in which the government had put people, a district that was not fit to live in. Now the hon. gentleman says that cheques were paid out at the polling booths on the 26th October. I say his statement is absolutely incorrect.

5071

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE BUDGET.
Subtopic:   W. H. PRINCE, JAS. WILLIAMS,
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April 27, 1909