April 27, 1909

LIB

James Kirkpatrick Kerr (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER.

The Department of Justice was referred to.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE BUDGET.
Subtopic:   W. H. PRINCE, JAS. WILLIAMS,
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CON

Haughton Lennox

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. LENNOX.

Justice is administered by a judge.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE BUDGET.
Subtopic:   W. H. PRINCE, JAS. WILLIAMS,
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Some hon. MEMBERS

No, no.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE BUDGET.
Subtopic:   W. H. PRINCE, JAS. WILLIAMS,
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LIB

John Patrick Molloy

Liberal

Mr. MOLLOY.

I state in addition to what I say now that there is no charge against any judge in any part of Canada, let alone the province of Manitoba, but the Liberals charge that the Department of the Attorney General of Manitoba was prostituted for political ends. When I was interrupted by the hon. member for South Simcoe I was proposing to read a statement by Mr. Ingram, who was made to suffer for his affiliation with the Liberal party. If I may simply give the title of the article and then allow it to be put on ' Hansard ' I will be willing to do so; otherwise I will be compelled to take the time of the House while I read it.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE BUDGET.
Subtopic:   W. H. PRINCE, JAS. WILLIAMS,
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Some hon. MEMBERS

Read it.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE BUDGET.
Subtopic:   W. H. PRINCE, JAS. WILLIAMS,
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LIB

John Patrick Molloy

Liberal

Mr. MOLLOY.

Mr. Daly was the gentleman who opposed the hon. member for Brandon (Mr. Sifton) in the Dominion election.

-who represent the Crown in this matter, to attend for them and enter a stay of proceedings in this case.

I telephoned Mr. Darrach as to the indictment and he informs me that no indictment has been lodged with him. He thinks an indictment should be drawn and that the stay cf proceedings should be inscribed upon it. I hardly know what course to take under the circumstances but you are at liberty to treat this letter as a stay of proceedings or evidence of the Crown's intention to enter a stay of proceedings upon any indictment that might be found or presented in accordance with the information and commitment.

You are at liberty to notify the judge of the ccntents of this letter and to intimate that so far as the Crown is concerned there will be no necessity for his attendance at the court house on Friday next to deal with this case.

If you require anything further you might let me know and I will do my best to adjust matters so that the case may be finally disposed of as before stated.

Yours faithfully,

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE BUDGET.
Subtopic:   W. H. PRINCE, JAS. WILLIAMS,
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J. P. CURRAN.


That is the partner of the man who was instrumental in having Mr. Ingram arrested and who was Minister of Education in the Manitoba government. Here is Mr. Ingram's statement and hon. gentlemen opposite can make any statement that they see fit and that they believe is correct in rebuttal of what Mr. Ingram says: To a representative of the ' Free Press ' who interviewed him, Mr. Ingram made a statement of the case, which is given below. It is the most interesting expose yet made of the manner in which the Conservative machine uses its power of arrest and prosecution as a political weapon and asset. ' I was arrested,' said Mr. Ingram, ' on the evening of the 26th of October, charged with adding the name of William Nicholls to the voters' list in polling division No. 3 in the city of Brandon and with scoring out the name of Dan. Hugh MacCullough from the same list. In the first place the names on the Dominion lists should be exactly tke



same as on the provincial list; the duty of the county court judges in preparing the lists for the Dominion elections is confined to the allocation of names. However, it is necessary that the judges should make copies of the provincial lists with the names thereon properly allocated to the proper constituencies and these written lists are thereupon sent to the King's Printer who prints them for use in the election. I would ask my hon. friends from Manitoba to pay particular attention to this: 'About a week prior to the date of the election Judge Cumberland, of Brandon, came to see me and stated that either through his error or through the error of the King's Printer, he did not know which, the name of William Nicholls was left off the list in polling division No. 3 in the constituency of Brandon. He stated that he would like me to add that name to the list if I, as returning officer, had the power to add it. I replied to the judge that the provisions of the Dominion Election Act did not seem to impose upon the returning officer the duty to make any changes in the list, and that I was not disposed to make any changes in the list in view of the fact that such conduct was open to criticism on the part of either of the political parties. Judge Approached by Conservatives. ' Judge Cumberland in reply stated that so far as the Conservative party was concerned there would surely be no complaint; that his excuse for coming to me in regard to the matter at all was that Mr. Bronsdon, who was the chairman of Mr. Daly's executive committee, had been to see him and requested him to arrange with me to make the changes which were subsequently made in the list, that is to add the name of William Nicholls which was evidently left off in error and to score out the name of Dan. Hugh MacCul-lough which was repeated on the list. I told the judge that I would think it over and see him again about it. I submit that that was an absolutely fair proposition. The judge, according to Mr. Ingram, stated that perhaps through error he had left off the name of Mr. Nicholls or perhaps the printer had left off the name of Mr. Nicholls and that through error the name of Mr. MacCullough appeared twice. The position was a fair and manly one that the name of Mr. MacCullough which appeared twice should be stricken off and that the name of Mr. Nicholls who was entitled to vote should be placed on the list regardless of the party to which he belonged. ' After a lapse of two or three days I happened to meet the judge when he again asked me what I had decided to do about changing the list. I told the judge that the decision I had come to was this: I would wait until the day of the election and if William Nicholls was absent from the city and did not apply to me personally to be placed on the list I would let the list stand as it was, hut that if Mr. Nicholls came to me on the day of the | election and personally applied to be placed Mr. MOLLOY. on the list, I stated that I would take him to the booth and in the presence of all the officials of the political parties and in the presence of the deputy returning officer, I would make the change. 'Judge Cumberland was satisfied with my decision in the matter and on the day of the election Nicholls met me on the street and complained that his name was not on the list and asked me to put him on. Whereupon I told him that if he would call at polling division No. 3 an hour or so afterwards that he would be able to vote, as I would, in the meantime, go to the polling booth and make the changes necessary to enable him to vote. According to my arrangement with Nicholls I called at the booth and made the change after explaining to the deputy returning officer and to the persons engaged by the political parties present why I proposed to do so. Some objectiou was made to my changing the list. However I made the change and subsequently Mr. Nicholls called at the booth and voted. I did not know then, nor do I know now which candidate Nicholls supported or what are his political leanings. ' I might say that before telling the judge that I would make this change in the voters' list I had looked up the law on the subject and I was satisfied that unless the chango in the voters' list was made maliciously or with corrupt motive that such an act could not amount to a crime. I was abundantly satisfied in my own mind in the present case, at all events, that such an act could not be a crime as it was done in the interest of justice to both political parties and to Nicholls. Certainly the striking out of a repeater from a voters' list could not be considered a crime. ' Shortly after I made the change in the voters' list on election day, I was at Aagaard's cafe in the city getting a lunch, when I met Mr. Coldwell, Mr. Daly, Mr. W. A. Macdonald and Dr. Macdonald, the foremost men in the Conservative party in Brandon, and they made light of the incident and joked me about it considerably until I came away from the cafe, when the Hon. Mr. Cold-well said that if I behaved myself during the afternoon that they would let me go, meaning by that, I dare say, that unless some greater political offence were committed there would be no notice taken of the change I made in the list. This speech was made in a joke. Shortly after I left the cafe I was called upon to sign, as returning officer, a warrant for the arrest of Brownlee, the license inspector, for interfering with a Dominion officer in the discharge of his duty. This warrant was issued and Brownlee was arrested, being held in restraint until the close of polling. Shortly after Mr. Brownlee's arrest I ran into Mr. Coldwell on the street. He asked me if I had caused the arrest of Brownlee and I stated that I had. He expressed his disapproval of it in violent language, and I told him that I did not value his opinion on a subject of that kind. He immediately turned round and said, ' I will fix you for this,' and struck out for the Conservative committee rooms where X am informed by Lawrence Armstrong, the man who laid the information against me, that Mr. Coldwell made him swear out an information against me. As X stated above, I was arrested and held under arrest until I had arranged for bonds in the sum of $4,000 to appear the following morning for my preliminary hearing. The case was adjourned for a week and on the following Monday I appeared. A second adjournment was asked for to wdiich my solicitor objected. Mr. Curran, acting for the Crown on that occasion, called me into the office of the chief cf police and asked me what proposition I had to make. I said I did not understand him. He said., ' Well, you are tied up with a criminal case, what proposition are you prepared to make to get out?' I said I did not understand what he was driving at, and lie said it was easy enough for me to make a proposition that would save me from further pi oseeution. He remarked that Sifton's return had not yet been made. I told Mr. Curran that I had no proposition to make and he then said: 'We will adjourn the case for another week and in the meantime we will see what can be done/ Before the case came up again I had occasion to see Mr. Curran on other business in his own office, when he informed me that had it not been for the arrest of Brownlee in all possibility, I would never have been arrested. He said he was still hoping to receive a proposition from me. About this time I was endeavouring to make the count of the ballots in order to make my returns to the department at Ottawa, and Mr. Curran had caused a search warrant to be issued and placed In the hands of a constable who appeared on the 6th of November, the date upon which I undertook to make the count of the ballots and this constable demanded the voters' list out of the ballot box for polling division No. 3. I refused to allow him to have the box or the contents of it and adjourned the count for a week. When I undertook the second time to count the ballots I had a proper force of policemen to prevent any interruption of the proceedings and effected the count of the ballots. When my case was again called before Magistrate James evidence was taken. The only witness was Robert Purdon who acted as deputy returning officer for polling division No. 3. He deposed that 1 had entered the booth on the day of the election; that I had explained why I wished to make a change in the voters' list and that I did make the change in the list. He swore also that he was satisfied that I made the change from no improper motive, with no intention of committing crime; that he had know'n me for many years and that he knew that I would net do anything improper, if I knew that it was improper. However, on the strength of this eVidence Magistrate James committed me for trial. Shortly before the Virden election came off I met Mr. G. R. Coldwell at the Canadian Pacific Railway depot. He was waiting for a train and I had to see him in regard to the sale of the Brandon Trust Company charter in which I had an interest in common with Mr. Coldwell, and several others. 1 had received an offer for this charter and discussed with him the acceptance of this offer. After l had concluded my conversation in regard to the charter, Mr. Coldwell asked me what 1 was doing about my case. I replied that 1 had done nothing; that there was nothing I could do; that the matter was in the hands of the Attorney General and that I did not see that there was anything for me to do but wait for my trial. ' Do you mean to run the risk of a trial ? ' he asked. I said, ' Yes,' as I had no option in the matter. Mr. Coldwell then said, ' Well, you have the whole matter in your own hands and you can go to trial or not, just as you see fit.' He further said, ' What I want you to do is to take the matter up with Mr. Sifton and induce him to effect a withdrawal of the petition filed against Alex. Haggart in the city of Winnipeg? He stated that an offer had been made to the Conservative party in Winnipeg to withdraw all the petitions filed against the Conservatives except Alex. Haggart on condition that the Conservative party withdraw the petition against Mr. Sifton. This, he said, was not good enough. He was l) epared to undertake to secure the withdrawal of all the petitions filed against the liberal candidates and the withdrawal of all the criminal prosecutions against Liberals charged with bribery and corruption in return for the withdrawal of all the petitions against the Conservative candidates, including Mr. Haggart, of Winnipeg. ' I told Mr. Coldwell that that was a matter which I could not arrange if I wanted to. He replied that I could arrange it if I liked; that I had the whole thing in the palm of my hand and he knew that. I stated that there were too many prominent Conservatives who were involved in the corruption which resulted in Mr. Haggart's election and that I was of the opinion that nothing would dispose of that petition excepting a trial before a judge. At all events as far as I was concerned I would have nothing to do with it. He said, ' Well if you feel that way about it you had better go to trial on your own case, but it is a serious matter and I would not like to see you go over the road for it.' I said I would take my chances on it. ' Some time afterwards a meeting of the provincial directors of the Brandon Trust Company was called in his office and I attended there and after the meeting Mr. Coldwell asked me if I had seen Mr. Sifton wThen I was in Ottawa. I replied that I had. He then said, ' Did you discuss election matters with him?' and I said, 'Yes, in a general way.' He then wanted to know if I had made any arrangement for the withdrawal of the Winnipeg petition. He said, ' Do you mean to say that you are going to trial on your own case.' I said, yes, I could not prevent it, and I did not feel disposed to prevent it any way. ' Mr. Coldwell then asked me if I had considered another phase of the matter. He wanted to know if I had considered the liability of ray arrest being brought to the attention of the Law Society of Manitoba. I said that I had not thought of that. He said that there was a likelihood of it being brought before the Benchers of the Law Society and I would run a chance of being struck off the rolls as a solicitor and attorney. I said that I did not think the Benchers would consider the matter until a conviction had been entered against me and that I believed the Benchers were reasonable men and I did not think any notice would be taken of my case until it reached the stage where conviction had been 'obtained against me. Mr. Coldwell stated that it would not be necessary to wait that long and that that would likely be the



next move unless I was prepared to act. I said I would have to scrap it out with the Benchers. Mr. Coldwell then said, ' Then you are prepared to go to trial? * I said, ' I am.' He said, ' Well, we will go right after you as hard as we can and you will take the consequences,' and I said I was willing to abide by the decision of the judge. This was the last conversation I had with Mr. Coldwell until about a week ago when he called me over the phone and said he would be in Brandon the following Friday and would see me. ' These facts I am prepared to verify on oath at any time. The prosecution has terminated in a farce but it seems to me that the public are entitled to know the facts of the case and be able to judge whether the * Conservative leaders in the city of Brandon were justified in instituting criminal proceedings against me in this matter. I am entitled, I believe, to the judgment of the public inasmuch as by the present action of the same leaders I am barred from the decision of a judge on the bench.' If we say, for arguments's sake, that every word of that statement is incorrect, that Mr. Ingram made a false statement, the fact still remains that he was arrested by an officer of the Manitoba government, that his case was adjourned from week to week, and that it was terminated by the Attorney General's Department asking for a stay of proceedings, leaving that charge hanging over Mr. Ingram undecided. They had not the backbone to bring that man to trial, and now try to impute to him motives that are not correct. I say it is a scandal and a crime, whether committed under a Conservative or a Liberal government, not to give a British subject a hearing. If he is guilty, punish him; if he is innocent, let the courts of the land hear and acquit him I make the statement that Mr. Ingram is not afraid of his accusers, but in my opinion the Department of Justice in the province of Manitoba are afraid to take action against him as they have been afraid to take action against every man they have, arrested for political purposes during their term of power in Manitoba.


CON

Frederick Laurence Schaffner

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SCHAFFNER.

The hon. gentleman said I might make a statement, and I simply want to state that the hon. Mr. Coldwell has absolutely denied these statements made by Mr. Ingram.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE BUDGET.
Subtopic:   J. P. CURRAN.
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LIB

David Bradley Neely

Liberal

Mr. NEELY.

Would the hon. gentleman tell us why the charge was not proceeded with?

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE BUDGET.
Subtopic:   J. P. CURRAN.
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Mr. R S. LAKE@Qu'Appelle

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Provencher (Mr. Molloy) has spent almost the whole of the hour and twenty minutes that he has been speaking in an attack upon the government of the province of Manitoba, the members of which are not here to defend themselves. Anyway, I do Mr. MOLLOY.

not think that this House is the proper place to make such an attack, and I do not propose to follow him in that discussion. I desire to make my remarks as brief as possible, for I feel that it is the wish of every member of this House that this somewhat long drawn out debate should soon close. The hon. member who has just spoken began his speech by defending the Minister of Finance against a charge of joking which he said had been preferred against him by a member on this side of the House. I must confess that I myself thought the situation bordered somewhat on the burlesque when I heard the Minister of Finance make some of the statements he made in his budget speech. He began by congratulating this House on the fact that he could show a surplus this year of a million and a quarter dollars, and then went on to tell us that he had to increase the debt of the country by some $46,000,000. Now it is always perfectly easy to show a surplus if you borrow sufficient money; and the absurdity of the statement made by the Minister of Finance was enhanced by the fact that, after telling us that he had a surplus, and that he expected a much larger one next year, he went on to say that the situation was a very serious one and called for one of two courses, either that he should increase the taxation of the country or that he should reduce the expenditure. That is to say, we have the statement by the Minister of Finance that having surpluses is a very serious situation calling for either increased taxation or reduced expenditure.

I would like to suggest to him, whether it is not time to cease splitting hairs and drawing fine distinctions as to what expenditures should be charged to capital and what to ordinary expense account. Let him make his statement next year fairly and squarely as to how the country stands, so that the people of the country will fairly understand what the situation is. He can explain afterwards why he has been called on to add to the debt of the country. The hon. minister makes his surplus by charging some items to capital account which in my opinion certainly should not be so cnarged. He charged to capital account the bounties amounting to upwards of $2,250,000 this year. This was an entirely new departure on his part from the practice under his predecessors. Then he charged to capital account the expenditures on the armaments of the militia. That is a service which will have to go on year after year, as rifles and guns wear out, and new ones will have to be constantly purchased. Then, repairs and betterments of railways and canals are many of them charged to capital account. These are expenditures which under any business corporation would be charged to ordinary current ac-

5061 APRIL 27, 1909 5082

count. Then, we have a charge to capital account which seems to me to be the most absurd of all, the charge for the survey of our Dominion lands, amounting to nearly $1,000,000, while the money we Teceive on account of these lands is put into the ordinary revenue of the country and is expended in the ordinary expenditure of the country. That amount is nearly $2,000,000, according to the last statement. The net result of the year's finances is that the country is to be saddled, practically forever, with a charge of upwards of $1,000,000 a year as interest on the increase of debt which the government has incurred during the last financial year. Let me point out that the government pledged themselves only a short time ago to take the proceeds of some of the sales of these Dominion lands for the purpose of building the Hudson Bay Railway. But if their present course be continued, we shall find probably in the very near future that the government themselves will make the excuse that they cannot go on building the Hudson Bay Railway because they have not the funds to do so. I would like to remind the hon. gentleman that the government is positively pledged to the building of this railway at once. In speaking at Niagara, the right hon. the Prime Minister just on the eve of the elections, pledged himself in the most earnest manner to the building of the Hudson Bay Railway. Not to-morrow, he said, but to-day. We will immediately proceed, he said, to build the Tailway as soon as we receive the plans of the surveyors. That was a pledge given the people. But how is the government carrying it out? The Minister of Railways (Mr. Graham) explained the other day, how the government was carrying it out. He said: There is no intention of abandoning the work, hut it is in the same position as other large works and at present we do not feel like proceeding with them. I am taking $65,000- that is the whole sum taken in the estimates this year-part of which will serve to learn the best routes and the best harbours, but of course not to proceed with the actual construction. Well, Mr. Speaker, the people of Canada have the right to consider that, when a pledge is made by the Prime Minister, it should be carried out. It is very much to the discredit of the country that such a pledge should be abandoned, and abandoned almost immediately after it had been given. I am wondering what the Liberal members from the Northwest are doing in this connection. The Liberal slogan throughout the elections which took place in Saskatchewan, and I believe in the other Northwest provinces, was the immediate building of thf Hudson Bay Railway, and many Liberal members owe a large proportion of the votes they received to the opinion of the people that the Prime Minister's word was his bond and that that railway would be built. But to-day we find these same Liberal members sitting silent, raising no protest when told that the work is to be abandoned for the present. And strange to say we find them also quite prepared to endorse the most lavish and extravagant expenditure on other works, on which the money spent is simply wasted. Take for instance the _ Ayles-worth canal, the expenditure on which was supported by every Liberal member from the Northwest, with the one exception of my hon. friend from Red Deer (Mr. Clark). I would like to suggest to my hon. friend, if he were here, that he only did part of his duty when he refrained from voting in favour of that expenditure. His duty, as an honest and fearless representative of the people, was to have stood up and voted against that expenditure when it was before the House, if he believed it to be an improper expenditure. But the main reason why I am addressing the House this evening is because I wish to register the most vigorous protest of which I am capable against the attitude which this government has assumed towards the defence of this country. This is a question which is exercising the people, from one end of Canada to the other. Everybody is thinking and talking about it. The people are beginning to realize some of their responsibility as self-respecting citizens of a self-respecting country and are prepared to take definite steps towards undertaking that supreme duty of citizens, the defence of their country should it ever be subject to attack or to foreign aggression. And yet in the face of all this feeling which is being aroused throughout the country and the excellent sentiment prevailing everywhere, we find the government actually cutting down the expenditure of its land defences. It has reduced the expenditure on the militia by nearly a million dollars-a measure which will result in preventing many of our citizens. who are anxious to render themselves fit to perform their duty to the state, from undergoing their annual training this year. And in spite of the fact that this House has unanimously passed a resolution declaring that it is the duty of the Canadian people to provide some measure of selfdefence from a naval point of view, they have neglected to put anything in the estimates for this purpose; and I gather from the statement of the Finance Minister himself that he does not propose to take any adequate sum to fulfil this duty, but is postponing it for yet another year. I would like to protest against that in the most earnest way. I believe that it is the undoubted duty of a country to do something for its own protection, and I believe the Canadian people are prepared to perform that duty. I ' know at any rate that I can speak for the

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE BUDGET.
Subtopic:   J. P. CURRAN.
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LIB

Alexander William Chisholm

Liberal

Mr. ALEXANDER W. CHISHOLM (Inverness).

Mr. Speaker, in rising to address this House for the first time, I can give you one assurance and that is that I will not detain you very long. I had not intended, during the present session, to take any part in the debates of this House, for the simple reason that I never had any experience in Parliamentary procedure However, there are certain matters relating to my own constituencv that have been mentioned, and if I did not refer to them I should consider myself recreant to my duty as a representative of that constituency. Yesterday the hon. member for South Ca^e Breton (Mr. Maddin) took occasion to stray from a discussion of the budget, and to refer to the conditions of the coal industry in the county of Inverness, and also to the condition of railway facilities. I think if my hon. friend had consulted the interest of his party he would have let that county alone, because if there is one county in all Canada that has benefited permanently from the policy adopted by this government, it is the county of Inverness. When I compare the conditions that prevailed in that county previous to 1896 with the state of things to-dav. I am proud to he a supporter of this government. As regards the

condition of the working man in the county of Inverness previous to 1896, I think my hon. friend was also ill advised in making the references he did. I well remember the conditions in 1896, and the difficulties the labouring men had to contend with in order to get employment. Indeed in order to earn a dollar they had to go to the neighbouring republic, and their chief difficulty was to get the means of transportation to that country. As a result of the hard times then prevailing, there was an exodus from that county which we will never forget. In fact labouring men left that county in such large numbers-and I make this statement knowing that it will go back to the county-that at certain seasons of the year you might travel for six hours and you would not probably meet a dozen young men in that time. Take the condition of the farmers previous to 1896, they could not get sale for the products of their labour, they became discouraged to such an extent that numbers of them left the county. Take the coal miners in the county of Inverness, and these are the people that my hon. friend from South Cape Breton paid particular attention to. Previous to 1886 there were no miners in_ the county, notwithstanding the fact that it is one of the richest mineral counties in the province of Nova Scotia. But what are the present conditions? Our labouring men need not leave the county, or the province, if they want employment. They can get the best wages paid in any county of the province. The farmers get the best price for their products probably of any place east of Montreal. The mining industries of the county of Inverness previous to 1896 were an unknown quantity; notwithstanding the fact that we had large coal areas, they remained undeveloped. My hon. friend referred to the fact that Mr. George H. Murray and other gentlemen associated with him got a charter to build a railway from "the southern end of the county to Cheticamp. Although these gentlemen, good business men, had that charter for a long time, and notwithstanding the fact that every effort was made to interest capital in the undertaking they were unable to do so until 1898. At that time McKenzie & Mann took over this charter and built a railway from the Strait of Canso to the town of Inverness. They also have a charter extending from the town of

Inverness to Cheticamp. My hon. friend from Cape Breton tried to leave the impression that it would be impossible for any other company to build a road in that county because Mackenzie & Mann have built a road as far as the town of Inverness, and hold a charter to Cheticamp. Let me tell my hon. friend that another company are now preparing to build a road from a point on the Strait of Canso known as Cariboo to the collieries of Ste. Rose. I

have strong faith that this concern will build that road in the very near future; indeed, I am in possession of facts which lead me to believe that they are going forthwith to build that road. What is more, let he tell my hon. friend that Messrs. Mackenzie & Mann-I have this form one of the leading officials of that company not later than yesterday-are going to extend the road from Inverness to Ste. Rose also, with the purpose of developing the coal mines at Ste. Rose. These conditions are very satisfactory to the people of Inverness, but they were unknown previous to 1896. The coal industry is the most important in our province. It will be surprising to you, Mr. Speaker, to learn that previous to 1896 not one ton of coal was exported from my county, scarcely one ton of coal was sold or mined in the county ol Inverness previous to 1896. But in 1908 there were 335,943 tons of coal exported. Surely this is a great development, and it ought to be satisfactory even to my hon. friend from Cape Breton who has ' taken such a great interest in the county I have the honour to represent. Surely this is a convincing proof of the progress that had taken place in that county during the last 12 years. ,

My hon. friend has also taken occasion to refer to the conduct of the municipal council of Inverness. Although I am a young member of this House, I have had sufficient experience in public life to know that it ill becomes a young member, and still more an older member, to bring municipal politics into the House of Commons. I am sorry that my hon. friend from South Cape Breton is not present, because I would like him to hear these remarks. I think he ought to hesitate to refer to the affairs of the municipal council of Inverness in this House of Commons. I think that council knows how to discharge its duties just as well as my hon. friend knows how to discharge nis duties, and when he chose to cast reflections upon the municipal council in my constituency, I must characterize his conduct as puerile and childish. The municipal council, in the discharge of their duty, saw fit to extend the time for the completion of that road from end to end, and in doing so I am sure they were consulting "the wishes of the taxpayers of that county. It is, I know, very irksome to the ears of the hon. members to hear me make reference in this House to matters appertaining to the municipality of Inverness, but I must do so in reply to the remarks made by the hon. member for South Cape Breton (Mr. Maddin). I have great faith in the industries of that county of Inverness. I look upon that county as destined to be one of the finest counties in Canada in the near future. We have great mineral resources and they are now being I Mr. A. W. CHISHOLM.

developed quite Tapidly. We have the finest farming county in Nova Scotia, we have great fishing resources there also, and I am sure that we will only have to wait a little while to satisfy our friend from South Cape Breton that Inverness will be capable of looking out for itself. I would ask your indulgence for a moment or two while I refer to another matter in reterence to railways, because this is a subject that I wish particularly to bring to the attention of the House. A commission has been appointed by this government to look over branch lines of railways and to Teport upon such lines as might, in the opinion of the commission, be profitably taken over by the government as branch lines of the Intercolonial Railway. I do not know the terms of the instructions received by the commission when they went on their mission but I do think it possible that they were asked to visit and inspect the most important lines of railways in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick. I am sorry to think that they have failed to inspect and report on the railway to Inverness county. It may be said that the railway is not for sale. This commission has no evidence but that it could be purchased. I must say that had that commission gone over the line they would have found that it is to-day one of the best paying roads in Nova Scotia. That commission have failed to visit this road and also the Dominion Atlantic. The hon. member for Hants county (Mr. Black) has given the reason why they did not visit the Dominion Atlantic. I cannot give the reason why they did not visit the Inverness county road. The people of Inverness are anxious to see the Intercolonial take over the line for various reasons which I do not propose to submit to the House to-night, because I think it would be imposing too much upon its patience. But, I am sorry that the commission did not visit the road so as to be able to submit to the government the various conditions which,

I claim, would make this a very paying road as a branch of the Intercolonial Railway. I am satisfied that the day is not far distant when the Intercolonial Railway will put forth an effort to purchase this road. The road extends from a point on the strait of Canso to Inverness and it passes through one of the best farming sections in Nova Scotia. It passes through three important villages and it carries the product of three coal mines. All these conditions being considered, I am sure it would be a splendid thing for the government to take over this line and I believe that it would be a good thing for the county of Inverness that the government should do so.

There is another matter which I also desire to refer to. I am glad that my hon. friend the Minister of Railways and Canals (Mr. Graham) is in his seat to-night. I re-

fer to the fact that, notwithstanding that the Inverness and Richmond road has been built and operated for the last eight years and forms a junction with the Intercolonial Railway, there has never been a station at that junction, I am sure the older members of this House must have a vivid recollection of this matter being brought to their attention by my predecessor the late Dr. Mac-lennan. I do not know that I can add very much to the remarks of my late lamented predecessor, but I do say that, in my opinion, the conditions obtaining There' could not be duplicated in any place in Canada. Here is the Inverness and Richmond road carrying passengers to this junction. These passengers are left there and have to remain until the arrival of the eastern or western bound train. They have to suffer the inclemency of the weather. They have to stand out there in the drenching rains of spring and fall and in the snow storms of winter. These are conditions that I do not think any people of this country would put up with, and I think that the people of Inverness should be the last who should be called upon to suffer these inconveniences in view of the fact that they put their hands into their own pockets and spent $2,000 a mile to get that road built. I do not know that it will help the case one particle to discuss it any further, but if it is my privilege to come back here next session, as I hope it will be, unless I am called away, I trust I will not be called upon to bring this matter before the government again. We are not looking for a mansion, we are satisfied with a humble building, something that will shelter the travelling public. I am sure that if the people of Inverness believed that this station was not going to be built thev would build it themselves. That is all I am going to say on that point and in fact that is all I purpose saying to-night further than that there are a very many things that I would like to bring to the attention of the House in reference to the county of Inverness, but at this, very late hour, and as this is my first attempt, and the House has-been so indulgent and kind to me, I shall not impose myself further upon its patience.

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CON

Thomas Joseph Stewart

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. J. F. STEWART (West Hamilton).

Mr. Speaker, it is not my intention to take up much of the time of this House, at this late hour, in the debate on the budget, when it has been so thoroughly discussed by honourable members on both sides of this House, so much so that not much is left to be said, and, being a manufacturer myself, and representing a manufacturing constiutency, as I do, one of the largest in the Dominion, I desire to point out that the stove and the granite manufacturers of this country are not properly protected. The government, in framing the tariff, always keep one thing before them, that is, to keep

the tariff just high enough to admit foreign goods into this country,-the more goods come in the more money the government gets,-and allow the manufacturers of this country to take care of themselves. That is not the policy that will develop this country. The stove manufacturers in this country have invested about $6,000,000 and one and a quarter millions of this amount is invested in Hamilton, and during the last two years, the factories have only run seven months out of the twelve. The other five months the men walk the streets looking for work, while our retail stores and shops were selling American stoves at such prices as our manufacturers could not afford to sell for, and, since the panic in the United States, their manufacturers have been rushing stoves into this country at such prices as would leave no margin for our manufacturers. During the early part of last year, no less than four hundred car loads were shipped into this country and the Northwest, valued at half a million dollars. Now, all these stoves could and should be manufactured here, if properly protected, and when you take into account that the manufacturers of this country have to import from the United States several articles that go to make us stoves, and pay duty, it reduces the duty from 25 per cent to 14J per cent.

Another reason for more protection, is, large stove manufacturers in the United States are centered at or near Chicago and one firm employs about. seven thousand hands, nearly as many as all Canada, and, from Chicago to Winnipeg the freight is 50c. per hundred pounds, while from Hamilton, the rate is one dollar per hundred. The _ American ' manufacturers have eighty million people to sell to, while we have only seven million. American manufac-turers^ make fifty stoves to our manufacturers' one. American firms have another advantage. They can give a man one pattern to work on day in and day out, and he becomes an expert at that work. Our manufacturers, on account of the small number of stoves made here, are forced to give one man several parts to work on, and he must be a good mechanic and all round man commanding good wages. American manufacturers give their best men surface parts, and unskilled labour the inside parts. Our manufacturers cannot do this, on account of the small number manufactured, and all stove manufacturers in this country suffer in some way.

Now, Mr. Speaker, I know for a fact, that stove manufacturers in Hamilton, for the last two years, have paid no dividends, or earned any profits. The American firms have nothing to lose by sending into this country stoves at cost, but may gain in

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Subtopic:   J. P. CURRAN.
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Motion agreed to, and House went into Committee of Ways and Means.


LIB

William Stevens Fielding (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Liberal

Mr. FIELDING.

As hon. gentlemen have expressed a desire that we should not proceed with the resolutions to-night, I beg to move that the committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again.

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Subtopic:   J. P. CURRAN.
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Motion agreed to, and progress reported. Mr. FIELDING moved the adjournment of the House.


CON

Frederick Debartzch Monk

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MONK.

WTill the hon. gentleman say what the programme is for to-morrow?

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Subtopic:   J. P. CURRAN.
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LIB

William Stevens Fielding (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Liberal

Mr. FIELDING.

The motion will be made to resume the Comhiittee of Ways and Means for*the purpose of proceeding with the resolutions, and if there be sufficient time at a later stage, I think the intention is to take up the Grand Trunk Loan Bill.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE BUDGET.
Subtopic:   J. P. CURRAN.
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April 27, 1909