April 26, 1909

L-C

James William Maddin

Liberal-Conservative

Mr. J. W. MADDIN (South Cape Breton).

Mr. Speaker, during this debate I have been struck by the many laboured efforts of hon. gentlemen on the other side of the House to point out the great difference which they allege to exist between the tariff as it is and the national policy of the Conservative party. It seemed to me that the object of speaker after speaker on the government benches was chiefly to say something uncomplimentary of the hon. member for North Toronto (Mt. Foster), and it was quite evident that too many of these gentlemen opposite were inclined to regard the speech of the hon. member (Mr. Foster) from a pessimistic point of view. The hon. gentleman from Red Deer (Mr. Clark) treated the House to a quotation from one of the Scotch poets, and I will venture to offer him a couplet which he and others of his political friends may take into consideration:

The world's a very funny place where each man plays his role,

The optimist looks at the doughnut; the pessimist sees but the hole.

And if hon. gentlemen on the government side put on their optimistic glasses when they are dealing with the speech of the hon. member for North Toronto they will see a good deal more than they do now. I wonder if, after all, there is such a great difference between the present tariff and that which the Liberal party found when they came into power in 1896.? We know that prior to 1896 the Liberal party were in the habit of decrying protection from Vancouver to Halifax and Charlottetown, and threatening to destroy it root and branch. Amongst the industries which it was said had fattened at the expense of the toiling masses of the country were such concerns as Frost and Wood and Massey-Harris; yet the Prime Minister was not so very long in poweT until he found places in the Senate for the Hon. Melvin Jones and the Hon. Frank Frost, so that these agricultural implement industries might have their in terests well guarded in the parliament of Canada. This may to some extent account for the fact that during the past thirteen years the government with its tariff for revenue only has seen fit to reduce the

tariff on farm implements by only 2i per cent. The hon. member for Red Deer was not quite content to confine himself to observations on the budget, but thought it well to step aside from the issue before the House to cast animadversions upon the people of Nova Scotia. I quote from the hon. gentleman:

I should always wish to recollect that Nova Scotia is inhabited by a race of men who are reputed to keep the Sabbath and everything else they can lay their hands on.

The hon. member for Digby (Mr. Jameson), who followed the member for Red Deer, censured him for these remarks, and the hon. member for Red Deer informed the hon. member foT Digby that he was not quoting him properly. The hon. member fof Red Deer said:

If my hon. friend will pardon me, I said they were descended from a race of men who had that reputation.

Which is entirely different from what 'Hansard' credited him with, having actually said. However, later on the hon. member for Digby was followed by the hon. member for Nanaimo (Mr. Ralph Smith), who informed the hon. member for Digby that the hon. member for Red Deer was only in fun, that it was only a joke, only a little jovial way we had. Well, I have only this to say, that the hon. member for Red Deer did not say that he was only joking; and if the hon. member for Nanaimo is his apologist and says that it was only a joke, I can assure him that the people of Nova Scotia are not to be joked with in that light. I put it to the hon. members from Nova Scotia on both sides of the _ House whether they can tolerate aspersions of that kind upon the people of that province.

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Peter H. McKenzie

Mr. McKBNZIE.

We do not mind it worth a cent.

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L-C

James William Maddin

Liberal-Conservative

Mr. MADDIN.

I suppose not. I wish to say, with regard to the remark of the hon. member from Red Deer, that the people of Nova Scotia do keep the Sabbath; they also observe the Golden Rule, and that teaches them to deal properly with other things that come into their hands, and I can assure the hon. member for Red Deer, for whom I have a high regard, that it is in no Pecksniffian spirit that I resent the aspersion which he has cast upon the people of my native province. The hon. member for Red Deer, shortly after he had uttered this aspersion against the people of the province of Nova Scotia, spoke about the national policy in these words:

I fail to see how protection ever works in any other way, and I fail to see that its outlook ever entitles it to the high-sounding name of national policy. Show me where it is a national policy in its operation as between the various classes of a country. It is con-156

stantly happening in the high protectionist countries of the world, that goods are sold in enormous quantities more cheaply abroad than they are in the country in which they are produced. A well informed American, intimately acquainted with the iron trade, told me the other day that in Pittsburg, in the month of January, 1908, steel rails were sold to the American people in pursuance of a national policy at $28 a ton, and on the same date were sold in Middlesborough on the north east coast of England for $19.50 a ton. Now, if it he a national policy to rob your own people in order to sell cheaply to foreigners, with the incidental advantage of building up a few millionaires in your country, then a policy of high protection is a national policy, but otherwise it is not.

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LIB

Michael Clark

Liberal

Mr. M. CLARK.

Will the hon. member permit me to say that my information referred to 1906, instead of 1908?

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L-C

James William Maddin

Liberal-Conservative

Mr. MADDIN.

So far as the principle is concerned, the particular year matters not. I wish to point out to the hon. gentleman that the national policy of the Liberal-Conservative party was not a policy of high protection. The Liberal-Conservatives never advocated a policy of high protection; they advocated a policy of adequate protection for Canadian industries, which does not necessarily mean high protection. On the contrary, it may mean a very low tariff, according to the commodity to be safeguarded. The hon. gentleman need not have cited the particular instance of steel rails to bear out the argument he offered to the House; for butter, cheese and flour all cost more where they are produced than in the market to which they are exported. In an inquiry before a board of conciliation in this country, English miners testified that they paid four cents a pound more for Canadian cheese in Nova Scotia than they could buy it for in England, and Five Roses flour, a household flour manufactured in the province of Ontario, can be intercepted in the town of North Sydney, en route to Newfoundland, and sold there at fifty cents per barrel less than the largest firms in the county of Cape Breton can bring it there for. I would like also to point out that beef produced in the province of Ontario and sent to the county of Cape Breton in cold storage can be bought cheaper there than it can be in the city of Ottawa. So the hon. gentleman need not have gone so far afield for an illustration. But his illustration does not bear out his argument. The same thing is proved true in the countries that enjoy free trade. The prices are governed by the conditions surrounding production, and it cannot be argued that it is because of a protective policy that manufactured articles are sold at higher figures where they are manufactured than in the markets to which they are exported. Some hon. gentlemen have endeavoured to impress on the House, and I

presume on the country that the policy of the Liberal party differs a great deal from that of the Liberal-Conservative party when they were in power, and I have no doubt, if one were to follow the arguments of some hon. gentlemen opposite to their logical conclusion, that free trade is the goal to which they look forward. I would, however, ask hon. gentlemen from the western provinces and hon. gentlemen from the province of Ontario, on what articles do they consider that the tariff between 1878 and 1896 was very high and whether or not the tariff existing at the present time is not as high as was the tariff of those years. There is nothing in a name, and no one will fail to recognize in the policy being pursued by the Liberal party at the present time the old national policy of Sir John A. Macdonald and Sir Charles Tupper.

One phase of the budget about which I have not heard much during this discussion is the question of coal. The hon. Finance Minister, in his budget speech, steered clear of that question altogether; but previous to coming into power in 1896, the Liberal party, including the hon. Finance Minister, the right hon. leader of the government, and many gentlemen who support these hon. gentlemen to-day, were very anxious about the coal industry of the country, and professed to be the great friends of the coal miners and the coal industry of Nova Scotia. At the first session after the Liberal party came into power in 1896, Mr. Tisdale, on behalf of Sir Charles Hibbert Tupper, asked the following question;

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Mr. TISDALE (for Sir Charles Hibbert Tupper) asked:

-that as far as the coal industry of Nora Scotia is concerned, it is independent of duties of any kind. The coal production of the Dominion Coal Company will be more than consumed by the works at Sydney, and by the works at Everett in Massachusetts, and it will take all the time of the other companies to supply other markets. I do not want to be misunderstood-I am in favour of duties upon coal, and of bounties upon iron, and of anything and everything that is considered to be necessary for the protection of every industry now established or hereafter to be established in the province of Nova Scotia or in the Dominion. But I have been assured by those deeply concerned in the business that the coal business of Nova Scotia is absolutely independent of the result of duties. This is the state of the coal industry in Cape Breton, and I am sure there it like prosperity in every other part of the province.

The result of this enterprise has been that the people engaged in this coal industry, and whose living depends upon it are happy and prosperous. It has been a fact that in the past, for four months, and perhaps five and six months in the year, the people of Cape Breton who depended on the coal industry for their livelihood were idle and that the wages of the other six months were eaten up by getting goods on credit, and that in that wJDr lhey were continuously in debt and unable to have a dollar in their pockets. But to-day the conditions are changed, and these men can obtain employment continuously throughout the year, and one sometimes hears the complaint from a man that he does not get a moment of rest. That is a complaint, however, with which we can .have no sympathy.

Now, these are some observations from hon. gentlemen opposite in speaking about the coal question. And, in view of the observations of the hon. member for Cape Breton and Victoria (Mr. McKenzie) in the legislature of Nova Scotia, it does seem to me it might well be difficult for the Minister of Finance to know what to do under the circumstances. The coal industry in Nova Scotia has had a hard time of it during the last two or three years, and particularly during the last year. The capability of the coal operators to compete with American coal, of course, depends on the cost of production in the province of Nova Scotia, and I wish to point out to the members of the House that the responsibility for the cost of production in Nova Scotia rests in large measure with the local government of that province, for, during the regime as premier of the province of the present Minister of Finance (Mr. Fielding) and during more recent years under the present administration headed by the Hon. Geo. H. Murray in that province, the manner in which the coal leases are dealt with and handed out in that province has gone a long way to hamper the cheap production of coal. The railway charters have also cut no unimportant figure in the Mr. iMADDIN.

province in that matter. In the county of Inverness, in 1887, Hon. Geo. H. Murray, now Premier of Nova Scotia, who was not then even in the legislature, but merely a private citizen, along with some other gentlemen, secured a charter to build a railway from the Strait of Canso up through Port Hood, Mabour and by St. Hose and Mar-garee to Cheticamp. That covers the section of which I wish to speak, though it was to proceed further and eventually join tSe Intercolonial near Grand Narrows. This charter called for the building of the line in five years. The gentlemen who had secured the charter had the charter renewed from time to time, and eventually it was handed over to Messrs. Mackenzie and Mann. These gentlemen had secured coal areas in Inverness, and these they proceeded to develop and they built the railway as far as their own mines. It is a fact that there are large and valuable coal areas north of the town of Inverness which are undeveloped, this lack of development being due solely to the fact that Messrs. Mackenzie and Mann have not completed the railway for which a charter was granted in 1887. As I have said, they completed the railway up to their own mines. But from time to time they found the government of Nova Scotia so plastic as to assure them of the renewal of the charter, and the county council of Inverness so plastic and pliable as to renew their free right of way through Inverness. The Nova Scotia Collieries Company hold coal areas at St. Rose, three or four miles from Mar-garee. They have two or three valuable seams of coal, six, seven and nine feet in thickness, which they are unable to de-velope for: want of railway facilities. Messrs. Mackenzie and Mann are not disposed to complete this road for the benefit of one of their competitors, yet the Nova Scotia government has allowed this charter to be renewed from time to time at the behest of these gentlemen and to the prejudice of the development of valuable coal areas in Nova Scotia. There is another feature in the cost of production of coal in Nova Scotia, and that is the manner in which the coal leases in that province are dealt with. There are no less than 148 coal leases in Nova Scotia held by speculators. We must all admit, and it must be apparent to hon. gentlemen whether acquainted with the coal trade or not, that coal, in order to be cheaply produced, must be taken from somewhere near the surface, that if coal is produced at a great distance from the surface the cost of production is necessarily increased. In the county of Cape Breton, the Dominion Coal Company is the only company in a position to produce coal at a reasonably low cost. The Nova Scotia Steel and Coal Company, on the other side of the harbour, is producing coal in a number of instances from a dis-

tance of a mile and a half or a mile and three-quarters from the foot of their shaft. Only last July, in company with the chairman of the Civil Service Commission, Professor Adam Shortt, I had an opportunity to go down the Queen pit.shaft of the Sydney mines, which is on the shore near Cranberry Head, and is sunk to a depth of 800 feet. We travelled 2,460 yards to a tool house or station where the miners' lamps are tested and they get their tools to proceed to their work. This will give some idea of the cost of mining coal to that company. When it is borne in mind that this company were obliged to drive through crushes in order to win the coal at even this great distance, one can form a still further idea of the cost of production. The company cannot develop the areas to the south because they are bounded by the Dominion Coal Company, or to the north because these areas are held by private individuals and concerns that axe not developing.

Let us leave that county for a moment and go up to the county of Pictou. There the two principal producing concerns are the Acadia Coal Mining Company and the Intercolonial Coal Mining Company. Both these companies are circumscribed in their operations and the result is that their slopes have been sunk to a depth now of over 7,000 feet and the great output of coal comes from a distance of over a mile from the surface. When we remember that driving for such a distance the roof and pavement becomes bad and a great amount oi unskilled labour is required to keep up air ways, timber and ventilating, we can form some idea of the cost of producing coal theTe. This condition exists notwithstanding the fact that there are over 140 coal leases in Nova Scotia tied up in the hands of non-producing speculators. We are givn to understand that the coal in that province is vested in the Crown and may be mined on payment of a royalty of so much a ton, but still this large number of leases have found their way into the possession of speculators. The member for Cape Breton North and Victoria (Mr. McKenzie), in his observations before the local legislature in 1901, was very proud ttf point out that in past years the miners of the county of Cape Breton were obliged for four and even five or six months of the year to go without employment, and that their earnings during the months they worked were sometimes eaten up, and they were obliged to go into debt in some instances in the four or six months of loafing. I would point out to him that the conditions of the miners of Cape Breton county and of the province of Nova Scotia were very much better from 1878 to 1896 than they have been from 1896 until the present time. I wish to show that the miners in the province of Nova Scotia are in a more deplorable condition at present than they ever were under he regime of the Liberal-Conservative party. In 1878 when Sir Charles Tupper came to the east to announce the national policy of the Liberal-Conservative party, the coal industry of Nova Scotia was at its very lowest ebb. At that time, standing on the site now occupied by the Dominion Steel Company in the city of Sydney, Sir Charles pointed out that before any great length of time iron and steel works would doubtless grow up under the national policy. He announced that it was the intention of the Conservative party if returned to power to place a duty on coal, and to make the duty so adequate as to develop the mineral resources of the country and to afford adequate protection to its industries; that protection would be given to the iron and steel industries of the country, and he said the time was not fax distant-waving his hand toward the shores of Sydney harbour-when great smoke stacks would rise up from iron and steel and smelting works upon those shores. He spoke as a prophet. In 1878 Sir John Macdonald commencing at the west and Sir Charles Tupper at the east, went through the country and preached the national policy. The people of Nova Scotia and of the Dominion took them at their word, and they were swept into power in 1878. In 1879 they brought down that tariff affording us adequate protection for coal. In 1883 they commenced the bounties on iron and steel. The legislation providing for bounties on iron and steel was introduced by the hon. member for North Toronto (Mr. Foster), who was Finance Minister, in 1891, and during those eighteen years the development of the mineral resources of the province of Nova Scotia was an established fact. It only required the continuation of the fostering care of the Liberal-Conservative administration to secure the growth, development and extension of these industries. It is quite true that up to 1896 the output of these mines was not so large as to warrant the shipment of coal in winter. Some of the mines banked .more coal and some less; some none at all, and so at some of the collieries of Nova Scotia work during the winter fell off considerably, with the result, as the hon. member for Victoria quite rightly said, the miners for four and sometimes six months in the year were unable to find employment about the colieries. But they were enabled to make their daily bread the year around ; they brought up and reared about them large families and enjoyed as good a measure of prosperity as they do to-day. What is their position to-day? It is practically true that for eight or nine or ten years the miners of Nova Scotia have been afforded 1 employment for twelve months ot the year.

and if these twelve months were to be proportionately as remunerative as their employment during the months they were at work prior to 1896, you would expect that, having their employment practically doubled, they would be twice as well off. That, however, is not the case. In the county of Cape Breton the miners do not own their own homes; they live in company's houses; they trade in company's stores, and it is safe to say that at least 30 per cent of them have never known for the last seven years what it is to be out of debt in the company's books. Striking instances have been brought to my attention time and time again. There are at least hundreds of instances where the indebtedness of a family in the books of a coal company in Cape Breton aggregate from $600 to $1,000. If the condition of the miners in Nova Scotia was deplorable before 1896 because they were able to work only six, seven or eight months in the year, but were still able to make a livelihood, I submit that they were very much better off, having the additional four or five months off to improve their minds, than they are to-day when they are able to work for twelve months but are still in the unfortunate position I have described. I am not viewing their position from any pessi mistic point of view. I would be very sorry indeed, coming from amongst them as I do, to make their case out as worse than it is, but I have been brought in personal contact with so many instances such as I have described that I cannot allow the opportunity to go by without pointing out that the condition of the miner of Nova Scotia is to-day not as good as it was pervious to 1896, notwithstanding that the men are now able to work for twelve months in the year. I have brought these matters to the attention of the government. The Minister of Finance in a by-election in the county of Cape Breton in 1896, he being then premier of Nova Scotia, seemed to have very little sympathy with the coal duties as enjoyed by the operators of Nova Scotia. I do not wish to be understood as a suppliant on behalf of the mine operators in Nova Scotia, because as a class I do not think Boswell ever slobbered over Johnston as abjectly as the mine operators of Nova Scotia as a class fawned over the government in power, whether it be Liberal or Conservative. This was true of them previous to 1896, and it is true now. Thus it is not out of any feeling I have for the coal operators of Nova Scotia, but rather out of feeling for those who are employed that I speak. Their interests are so interwoven and so closely associated with those of the coal operators that it seems to me the government should introduce some remedy to relieve the situation in connection with coal in the province of Nova Scotia. i

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L-C

James William Maddin

Liberal-Conservative

Mr. MADDIN.

As I observed a few moments ago, the Finance Minister was not so friendly to the coal operators of Nova Beotia in 1896. He was wont to say, according to the ' Morning Chronicle,' speaking in Temperance hall, Sydney, in 1896, that if the coal industry of Nova Scotia could not exist without duties let them close down the mines. I have quoted to you the tele?: gram sent out by the right hon. Prime Minister to the hon. member for Pictou on the 18th June, 1896. I have referred you to the observations of the hon. member for Pictou in the local legislature in 1898 when he said. that for a government to be able to pose as the conservators of the coal industry they should impose^ a duty on anthracite as well as on bituminous coal. I have pointed out the observations of the hon. member for Cape Breton North and Victoria. When the right hon. Prime Minister went to the country in the last general election he had for his slogan 'Let Laurier finish his work.' Inferenti-allv. I presume, he is not going to the country again in person or at the head of his party to seek re-election for another term in power. I have pointed out that the coal industry of Nova Scotia is now in need of the guardianship which he promised to give it in 1896. I believe from the observations of the press and of the Prime Minister that he is not going to the country again, and therefore I would urge upon him and his administration that they study carefully the needs of the coal interests in Nova Scotia. I believe that we are not again to have the spectacle of the Prime Minister leading his party in another election. No longer are we to see him as, on the 2nd of October last, we saw him in the county of Russell with his political stock in trade, leading in the van himself with his beaming countenance and sunny smile, speaking the liquid and dulcet language of diplomacy and accompanied by his Irish Catholic Secretary of State, good natured, genial and gentlemanly, and the rear brought up by the Highland Scotch bagpipers of the city of Ottawa. I believe that we are_ not to see a pageantry of this kind again in the political history of Canada, and I would therefore urge upon the Prime Minister-

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LIB

Daniel Duncan McKenzie

Liberal

Mr. McKENZIE.

You do not expect to die before the next election?

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L-C

James William Maddin

Liberal-Conservative

Mr. MADDIN.

I expect to be very much in the flesh. I would urge upon the Prime Minister that he carefully consider the observations which I have submitted this evening. I have quoted the remarks of hon. gentlemen who support him. The Prime Minister has the Finance Minister from Nova Scotia, he has the hon. member for Pictou and the hon. member for Cape Breton North. These are all great conservators of the coal industry of Nova Scotia and I would ask them and the gov-

ernment: 'What are you going to do about it?' There is no doubt the coal industry has substantially fallen off and as one of the best evidences that the miners of Cape Breton are not enjoying the wonted and boasted prosperity I need only mention that Dominion No. 6 mine has closed down during February and March, or partially closed down. The mine had not been idle three weeks until public subscriptions were called for and the clergy and members of the local legislature were called upon to form committees to provide relief for miners in that community. Hardly a week passes but there are instances of distress brought to the attention of the authorities in the mining towns of Nova Scotia. So much in regard to the coal question.

The hon. member for Queens, Prince Edward Island (Mr. Warburton), while discussing the budget, just preceding me, spoke of the emigration that took place when the Liberal-Conservatives were in power. He said that it was quite a common thing for the people to leave the farms and the country, but that now they were coming back to us. Under the wise administration of this government the people were coming back to their native heath, were coming once again to Canadian soil. There was no one so well able to depict the sad consequences of the flight from the maritime provinces of the people to the United States as the hon. member for Pictou. I have heard him, with a great deal of pleasure, in the most unctuous tones describing the aged pair saying the family devotions and praying for the return of their beloved ones, and he prophesied that this was going to take place as soon as the Liberal party were in power. But the hon. member for Queens has endeavoured to show us that the people are flocking back again to the land of their birth. In 1908 $2,000,000 worth of household effects were shipped into the United States from Canada. What does that mean? It means that $2,000,000 worth of familv effects followed the families there that have gone over to the stars and stripes, and if you take into consideration the large number of young men and young women who have gone and taken no family effects with them, you will have some idea of the extent to which emigration from this country is going on even at the present time. I do not know how it is in the province of the hon. member for Queens, but I can assure him and this House that the people are not rushing and flocking back to Nova Scotia from the United States. There are hundreds and thousands of vacant farms in Nova Scotia, and these have been continually increasing in number from 1896 down to the present time. An effort is being made by the local government to induce settlers to come_ to Nova Scotia, but when one bears in_ mind that there are more Nova Scotians in the

state of Massachusetts than there are in Nova Scotia one can form some idea of the extent to which the population of the maritime provinces has been depleted by immigration to that country. I take issue with the hon. member for Queens when he sa^s that the people are rushing back. Since 1896 we have lost two representatives from Nova Scotia because we did not have population enough to enable us to retain our representation in parliament. Formerly we enjoyed twenty members, but now we have only eighteen, and this is the most striking evidence one could have as to the falling off in population i" Nova Scotia.

There is one other matter that I would like to direct the attention of the government to in connection with this debate and it has reference to the English mail boats,

I would like to urge upon the government the desirability of having the English mail boats call at Sydney harbour during the summer months. I submit that during the past two years, when these boats have called at North Sydney, the experiment has demonstrated the advisability, the sureness and shortness of that route as compared with any other route that these boats could take. I would urge it for the further reason that it would help the Intercolonial Railway which seems to be an eye-sore to some of our friends from the upper province. The English mail boats discharge the mails at Halifax in winter, and there is no good reason why they should not drop the Nova Scotia freight there as well. I can see no reason why the subsidized steamers which carry the mails for eastern Canada and the freight for the different provinces should proceed to St. John after simply dropping the mails at Halifax What earthly reason can there be why they should not put off at Halifax the freight for Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island? The common practice at present is that the freight goes through to the city of St. John, where it is dis charged, and the St. John wholesale houses are able to put their goods on the Halifax market before the Halifax wholesale dealer gets his goods which come on the same steamer. It seems that when the steamer arrives in St. John and the freight is put on shore there, the Canadian Pacific Railway in their anxiety to expedite the traffic for the west throw the eastern freight aside; and the St. John freight is taken possession of promptly by the merchants of that city, while the Nova Scotia freight is subsequently sent over the Intercolonial Railway at an additional freight expense of 50 cents per ton to the consumers of Nova Scotia. That is a hardship and it is a discrimination against the merchants of Nova Scotia for which there is no excuse. I beg to submit further that during that period of the year when the Cabot straits are free

from ice, the boats should make North Sydney a port of call, which would result in the landing of quite a number of passengers and a good deal of freight there, and incidentally benefit the Intercolonial Railway.

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LIB

David Bradley Neely

Liberal

Mr. D. B. NEELY (Humboldt).

Mr. Speaker: When the Minister of Finance

made his budget speech the other day the furthest thing from my thoughts was that I should take any part in this discussion, but, as the debate went on certain statements were made in connection with western questions, which as a representative of a western constituency I feel it my duty to challenge, and which I shall undertake to prove were absolutely unfounded and misleading. Let me in the first place congratulate the Minister of Finance and the government on the very excellent financial statement which has been presented to the House. Of course the opposition members do not take the optimistic view of things which we on the government side take, but, realizing as we all must the financial depression that has existed for the last two or three years not only in Canada but throughout the world, it is a remarkable thing that notwithstanding the falling off in our revenue and notwithstanding the heavy expenditures made by this government for the building of railways, especially in western Canada, the Minister of Finance was able to announce to the House a surplus instead of a deficit. And, Sir, in view of. what the government of Canada have been doing for the 'development of the west and the encouragement ot immigration and the consequent necessary expenditures, if the Minister of Finance had come to this House with a deficit instead of a surplus he would have met with no condemnation from the large majority of the people west of Lake Superior. We all know that under the Conservative government if a railway was to be built in any part of the west it received aid from the government in the form of bonuses and land grants, and it is notorious that a large part of the heritage of the people of the west was given away by the Conservative government for the purpose of aiding in the construction of railways1. But when the government of Sir Wilfrid Laurier came into power it had a different policy and that policy was to pledge the credit of all Canada in aid of railways which were absolutely necessary for the development of our great prairie provinces. As a result of that eminently satisfactory policy the country has the railways and the people have the land. The hon. member for Dauphin (Mr. Glen Campbell) who I am glad to see is in his seat, undertook to question the statement of the Minister of Finance that the policy of this government was the land for the settler, Mr. MADDIN.

and he claimed that since the Liberals came to power they had been prodigal and profligate in giving away the lands of the people in aid of railway construction. I do not know where the hon. gentleman got his information, but I propose to enlighten him, and I suppose he is open to enlightenment. When the hon. gentleman (Mr. Campbell) made that statement I had a very strong impression that it was not correct, and the result of my inquiry since has been that the very contrary is the case, and that this government has not given away the lands of western Canada to railway corporations. It is true that under this government lands have been selected for railways, but in every instance these were lands that were given to the railways during the regime of the Conservative government. In this House last year, the Minister of the Interior dealt with this very question of western lands in answer to a series of questions which were put by the hon. member for Strathcona (Mr. Wilbert McIntyre), to be found in 'Hansard' of 1908, volume 4, at page 8182, in regard to lands in Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta, granted as bonuses to railways by the government of Canada previous to the 30th of June, 1896, and those given away since that date; and in answer to these questions the Minister of the Interior made the following statement:

1. The total acreage in Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta in odd numbered sections of lands granted to railways before the 30th June, 1896, was 29,550,179 acres.

2. The total acreage in even numbered sections granted to railways before the 30th June, 1896, was 2,212,775 acres.

3. The acreage in odd numbered sections of land granted to railways since the 30th June, 1896, to 1st November, 1907-none.

4. The acreage in even numbered sections granted to railways since the 30th June, 1896, to 1st November, 1907-none.

5. The acreage of add nuubered sections otherwise disposed of before the 30th June, 1896, was:

Classed as swamp lands.. .. 453,647 acs. est.

Surveyed school lands 4,375,200 " "

Other lands 3,155.056 " "

Total 7,984,803 " "

6. The acreage of even numbered sections disposed of before the 30th June. 1896, otherwise than as homesteads with Hudson Bay

Company as excluded was:

Classed as swamp lands.. .. 453,647 acs. est.

As sub. railway lands 2,212,775 " "

Other lands 2,475,485 " "

Total 5,141,907 " "

7. The acreage of odd numbered sections otherwise disposed of since the 30th June, 1896, to 1st November, 1907, is:

Classed as swamp lands.. .. 688,308 acs. est.Surveyed school lands

1,951,500 " "Other lands

1,402,988 " "Total

4,042,796

8. The acreage of even numbered sections disposed of otter than as homesteads with Hudson Bay Company land excluded since the 30tli June 1896 to 1st November, 1907, is:

Classed as swamp lands 688,308 acres.

As subsidies railway lands.. None.

Other lands

2,240,505 "Total

2,928,813 "9. The acreage of Indian reserves surrendered and sold before the 30th June, 1896, is 17,828 acres.10. The acreage of Indian reserves surren-cb red and sold since the 30th June, 1896, to 1st November, 1907, is 198,987 acres.11. The total acreage in Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta covered by homestead entries and pre-emptions with cancellations deducted before the 30th June, 1896, is:Pre-emptions

1,712,960 acres.Homesteads

6,208,440 "Total

7,921,400 "12. The acreage covered by homestead entries and pre-emptions with cancellations deducted since the 30th June, 1896, to the 1st November, 1907, is:Pre-emptions

None.Homesteads

23,592,590 acres.

Of course, this return only brings the figures down to the 1st of November, 1907, and I have not heard that the government lias since that date made any land grants to railways in western Canada, while with regard to the lands given to settlers in western Canada by this government up to date, I am free to say that the amount mentioned in the return falls very far short of the mark. This is the answer to the statement made by an hon. member in this House that this government had been giving away the lands of western Canada to railway corporations. So far as that is true, it has been in consequence of contracts entered into by the preceding government, which this government was in honour bound to carry out. The hon. member for Dauphin also undertook to attack the bargain that was made by this government with the Saskatchewan Valley Land Company.

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CON

Glenlyon Campbell

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CAMPBELL.

The Saskatchewan Valley and Manitoba Land Company.

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LIB

David Bradley Neely

Liberal

Mr. NEELY.

The 250,000 acres referred to were disposed of, if my information is correct, to the Saskatchewan Valley Land Company. The hon. gentleman found fault with the government for having, as he stated, disposed of this land for the paltry sum of $1 per acre, leading the House by inference to believe that the government had granted a very great concession to the men who formed that company. The hon. gentleman might just as well tell the House that when the government allows an actual settler to go to a Dominion land office anywhere in western Canada and obtain a quarter-section of land for the insignificant sum of $10, he is getting that

land for a ten dollar bill, whereas the hon. member and every other member of this House knows that the actual homesteader doe's not acquire the patent of his homestead by the spending of a $10 bill, but only by fulfilling the homestead regulations as to residence and cultivation duties. They call for a certain amount of expenditure in each year during three years before the homesteader can get his patent. The hon. gentleman knows that when the bargain was made by which the government disposed to the Saskatchewan Valley Land Company 250,000 acres at $1 an acre, there were conditions attached. That company bound itself to perform a certain amount of immigration work. It obliged itself to settle 32 actual settlers in every township in which its lands were located, and the hon. gentleman ought to know that before that company ever succeeded in putting a homesteader on a quarter-section of that 250,000 acres, it had to spend, not a few dollars, but many thousands. So that to say that the company obtained the land for $250,000 is absolutely wide of the mark, and I am happy to have this opportunity of enlightening the hon. member for Dauphin (Mr. Glen Campbell). No doubt the hon. gentleman made statements similar to those he has made in this House to the people in the constituency of Dauphin who, being situated a considerable distance from the locality where these lands were situated, were without better information than the hon. gentleman gave them. It is no wonder, therefore that he should sit in this House as a representative of a constituency in Manitoba. He sits here by virtue of such statements made in the last election in connection with this Saskatchewan Valley Land Company contract.

Regarding that contract, I have just this to say. While the hon. gentleman and others of the same political stripe have made the statement in this House and on the public platform that this was a bad bargain, it seems to me that the people of that part of the country directly interested ought to be the better judges as to the quality of that bargain. Well, I am fairly familiar with the conditions that existed there before these lands were turned over to that company. Not more than eight or ten years ago, you might take a train on the Saskatchewan, Qu'Ap-pelle and Long Lake Railway, which runs from Regina to Prince Albert, and after you had left Regina some twenty or thirty miles, you would travel through that country for a distance of 125 to 150 miles and you would see perhaps a coyote or gopher or other animals that inhabit the unpopulated prairie, but you would look in vain for actual settlers. To-day, however, that country is inhabited by thousands of settlers, home-1 steaders and others, who have taken up

lands and aie living on them. The conditions along that line of railway at the time the government made this contract were such as I have described. Why was that country not then settled? Why is it settled to-day? People went to that country through the efforts of the Saskatchewan Valley Land Company and made homes there for themselves and are prospering, so that instead of a bare desert, we find thousands of people now located there and cultivating profitable farms. But how comes it that that country lay barren so long? One of the reasons was that the railway company gave it a black eye by refusing to accept the lands given it as a bonus for building the lines from Begina to Prince Albert. The company refused because they said the lands were not fit for settlement and therefore did not meet the terms of the contract under which they undertook to build the railway. That was the condition of things when the Saskatchewan Valley Land Company was offered the land and purchased it from this government at $1 an acre, subject to the settlement duties I have described. And to-day if that country is well settled, it is due to the energetic colonizing efforts of the Saskatchewan Valley Land Company. If the people of that district believed that this was a bad bargain, if they thought that this government had given away the heritage of the people, surely we would find those people to-day strongly opposing the government which put through that bargain. Yet my hon. friend from Dauphin (Mr. Glen. Campbell), who took some small part in the provincial elections in Saskatchewan last August, will bear me out when I tell him that every provincial constituency along the line of that railway from Prince Albert South in which this land is situated, returned last August a supporter of the Hon.

Walter Scott. Surely that is sufficient answer to the hon. gentleman. At

any rate it was perfectly satisfactory to the Liberal party last August and an effective reply to those who were seeking, during that campaign, to traduce the character of the Premier of Saskatchewan-a man, who, so far as honesty and integrity are concerned, has not his superior in the Dominion to-day. In that connection I wish to say that I deplore and resent the attempt made in this House by the hon. member for Dauphin (Mr. Glen Campbell) to besmirch the fair fame of the Premier of Saskatchewan.

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CON

Glenlyon Campbell

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CAMPBELL.

Might I ask the hon. gentleman a question? Does he, as a man and a gentleman, on his honour, mean to tell this House that he honestly believes that Walter Scott did not get the certificate of stock I spoke of?

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LIB

David Bradley Neely

Liberal

Mr. NEELY.

The hon. gentleman does not need to put me on my honour in order to get me to make a true statement. But to gratify him, I will say on my honour Mr. NEELY.

that I do not believe for one moment that

Walter Scott, the Premier of Saskatchewan, ever received one share or one dollar's worth of stock, and I want to say further that I have the word of Mr. Scott himself, in that connection and the sworn affidavit, right in my possession, of officers of that company, who state that neither in the Saskatchewan Valley Land Company nor the company formed to handle the Canadian Northern lands, the Saskatchewan and Manitoba Land Company, does Mr. Scott hold or did he ever hold one dollar's worth or one share of stock.

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CON

Glenlyon Campbell

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CAMPBELL.

Perhaps I may be allowed to interject a remark. What I said on Friday night with regard to the Hon. Walter Scott and his getting a certificate of stock in the way I stated is, to my knowledge, as far as a man can believe his eyes and believe his ears, absolutely correct and true.

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LIB

David Bradley Neely

Liberal

Mr. NEELY.

When the hon. member for Dauphin (Mr. Campbell) undertakes to make statements of that kind, he ought not to ask this House to accept his bare statement; he ought to bring some substantial proof. If he brings that proof, every hon. member will be compelled to believe his statement. But, on the other side, we have the declaration of Hon. Walter Scott himself. I have also the sworn declarations of Mr. A. D. McRae, secretary and treasurer of the Saskatchewan Valley Land Company, and the statement of Colonel Davidson, one of the chief officers. And I say that when this charge was made in the provincial elections in Saskatchewan :ast August, notwithstanding the fact that one of these gentlemen is a supporter of the party to which my hon. friend from Dauphin belongs, when he saw these statements in the Conservative press of Saskatchewan, he came forward like a man and a gentleman and gave an affidavit that these statements were absolutely false.

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CON

Glenlyon Campbell

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CAMPBELL.

If I have permission to sneak, I would like to say a word concerning the hon. gentleman's (Mr. Neely) statement that proof is necessary. I give as proof this fact-that when Hon. Walter Scott knew that the charge was made on the platform, and made over the signature of one of the directors of that company, he went to the length of telegraphing up to Balcarres to have that man arrested. His friends did not arrest the man. Yet Hon. Walter Scott, knowing that his name was besmirched publicly up there, has not to this moment dared to institute any proceedings against the man I speak of, the man who handed him the certificate of stock personally.

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LIB

David Bradley Neely

Liberal

Mr. NEELY.

And I want to repeat that the reason the Hon. Walter Scott did not prosecute the men and newspapers who

made that chaTge was that these men and newspapers withdrew the charge.

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CON

Glenlyon Campbell

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CAMPBELL.

This charge was not withdrawn and never will be withdrawn.

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LIB

David Bradley Neely

Liberal

Mr. NEELY.

Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. gentleman (Mr. Campbell) has had an excellent opportunity to explain his position on this question-

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April 26, 1909