March 26, 1909

CON

George Halsey Perley

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. PERLEY.

Have they shown any evidence of ability to build the works necessary for this power? It is very easy for people to get plans,-it costs very little to do that, and then endeavour to get somebody to buy the rights they have.

Topic:   SUPPLY-THE FRUIT MARKS ACT.
Subtopic:   CEDAR RAPIDS MANUFACTURING AND POWER COMPANY.
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LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

The people who are interested in the property that is to be developed, and whose names I do not now recall, but who are very respectable people, gave me very positive assurances that they were ready to go ahead and were most anxious to have their plans approved, but I thought it was only courteous to the government of the United States that the plans should be submitted to the Waterways Commission. If I had not taken that ground I do not imagine that they would have been here asking for an extension of time. It seems to me though that the time asked for is longer than they need. If it were shortened by two years I should think it would be ample.

Topic:   SUPPLY-THE FRUIT MARKS ACT.
Subtopic:   CEDAR RAPIDS MANUFACTURING AND POWER COMPANY.
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CON

Alexander Haggart

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. A. HAGGART.

Does this give the promoters of this Bill anything in the nature of a blanket to the exclusion of others who might develop the property?

Topic:   SUPPLY-THE FRUIT MARKS ACT.
Subtopic:   CEDAR RAPIDS MANUFACTURING AND POWER COMPANY.
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LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

It would as to that particular property. j

Topic:   SUPPLY-THE FRUIT MARKS ACT.
Subtopic:   CEDAR RAPIDS MANUFACTURING AND POWER COMPANY.
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CON

George Halsey Perley

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. PERLEY.

Does not the minister think it is time we stopped granting these charters giving rights to water-powers when we know that every day these water-powers are growing in value? They are one of the great assets of this country. The question came up not long ago in the House with reference to a western charter. Before long we will use these water-powers in place of coal, or at any rate, for heating purposes. Is it not time that we stopped granting these charters to private individuals which give them the practical ownership of large water-powers which at the present time are no doubt largely vested in the Dominion? The persons to whom we give these powers very likely do not propose to develop them at all, but they have sense enough to see that before long they will become of great value.

Topic:   SUPPLY-THE FRUIT MARKS ACT.
Subtopic:   CEDAR RAPIDS MANUFACTURING AND POWER COMPANY.
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LIB

Frederick Forsyth Pardee (Chief Government Whip; Whip of the Liberal Party)

Liberal

Mr. PARDEE.

The company have already acquired, without expropriation, nearly all the land necessary and the only portions that are outstanding of the land required are portions which are owned by non-residents. These non-residents are holding out for an excessive price for the lands which are proposed to be purchased. It will be seen, therefore, that the company have done something to cary out the objects for which they are incorporated.

Topic:   SUPPLY-THE FRUIT MARKS ACT.
Subtopic:   CEDAR RAPIDS MANUFACTURING AND POWER COMPANY.
Permalink
CON

George Halsey Perley

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. PERLEY.

I would like to ask the hon. member who has this Bill in charge whether he knows that himself?

Topic:   SUPPLY-THE FRUIT MARKS ACT.
Subtopic:   CEDAR RAPIDS MANUFACTURING AND POWER COMPANY.
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LIB

Frederick Forsyth Pardee (Chief Government Whip; Whip of the Liberal Party)

Liberal

Mr. PARDEE.

I only know that it was stated before the committee and I have a letter from the person who is acting as the advocate of the company in which he says that that is really the state of affairs at the present time. Of course, I could not say it from my own knowledge.

Topic:   SUPPLY-THE FRUIT MARKS ACT.
Subtopic:   CEDAR RAPIDS MANUFACTURING AND POWER COMPANY.
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L-C

James William Maddin

Liberal-Conservative

Mr. MADDEN.

I do not think that what my hon. friend from Argenteuil (Mr. Per-ley) is contending against is so much the right to expropriate lands as the right to hold these waterways for a period of five years. In view of the fact that the government has taken steps at this session to preserve our natural resources, and has added to the standing committees of the House three committees having that object in view, I think it would not be a bad idea to submit this Bill to the committee on waterways and forestry to say whether, in their opinion, it is wise to allow a company to blanket a water-power for five years.

Topic:   SUPPLY-THE FRUIT MARKS ACT.
Subtopic:   CEDAR RAPIDS MANUFACTURING AND POWER COMPANY.
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LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

It seems to me that it would be scarcely fair to this company to do that. Parliament has already given it this charter and has clothed it with the power of developing this water-power and acquiring lands. In pursuance of that authority they have gone ahead, and they have, as I was informed, acquired practically all the land which is necessary for

the development of these powers. We ought to treat this company just as we treat other companies. We scarcely ever refuse to give a reasonable extension of time, parliament having once granted the charter. With regard to the question raised by my hon. friend from Argenteuil (Mr. Perley), I think it is one of a great deal of importance. I think it is a question that is worthy of a good deal of consideration as to whether steps should not be taken for the public control of the various water-powers, particularly the valuable water-powers of the country, but before we should refuse to private individuals the opportunity of developing these powers and rendering them available to industrial purposes which, of course, is a matter of very great public advantage, the government ought to be prepared to undertake the responsibility of their development. My hon. friend will see that if we were to refuse to private companies the authority to develop power without the government being prepared to move forward the result would be to prevent any development at all. We have granted a great many charters to private companies and it seems to me it would not he reasonable to stay our hand just at the present time whatever may be decided upon in future. Having once granted a charter to this company it seems to me that it would be only reasonable that parliament should grant an extension. But I would suggest to the promoter of the Bill, if he is present, that the time be made 1912 instead of 1914. I think that would be ample time to enable this company to exercise all the powers which they might reasonably exercise under the charter in so far as the expropriation of land is concerned.

Topic:   SUPPLY-THE FRUIT MARKS ACT.
Subtopic:   CEDAR RAPIDS MANUFACTURING AND POWER COMPANY.
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CON

George Halsey Perley

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. PERLEY.

I would like to ask the hon. gentleman who is in charge of this Bill whether there was any opposition to it in the committee?

Topic:   SUPPLY-THE FRUIT MARKS ACT.
Subtopic:   CEDAR RAPIDS MANUFACTURING AND POWER COMPANY.
Permalink
LIB

Frederick Forsyth Pardee (Chief Government Whip; Whip of the Liberal Party)

Liberal

Mr. PARDEE.

An hon. gentleman who was present tells me there was no opposition at all.

Topic:   SUPPLY-THE FRUIT MARKS ACT.
Subtopic:   CEDAR RAPIDS MANUFACTURING AND POWER COMPANY.
Permalink
CON

Thomas Simpson Sproule

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SPROTJLE.

The minister says that they got this power from parliament and that they should not now be refused an extension of it. They got their charter but they allowed it to lapse. They acquired it when there was very little attention directed to the water-powers of the country, but since then, the necessity has become more apparent of having some supervision over these very valuable assets belonging to the provinces, in most cases, although, I presume, in this case, this being on the St. Lawrence river, it would probably come under federal authority. But, I think that the provinces should have control over these water-powers. It seems to me that these properties belong to the provinces; therefore, I should think the provinces Mr. PUGSLEY.

would have the right if they saw fit to lease them. I do not believe they should be given away for nothing. It is a mistake and is not good business. They should be leased so that they would yield a very considerable revenue, as time went on, to the province. The province of Ontario, at least, is considering the question of how far to go in taking charge of the water-powers which belong to the province and this, together with the interest which has developed lately in the federal parliament in regard to the question, as well as the public attention which has been directed to it, should cause us to be much more cautious now in dealing with the question than we have been hitherto. Since this charter has run out and they have done nothing, I do not think it would be any very great hardship if we allowed it to die and allowed the property to revert to the province or to the Dominion as the case may be.

Topic:   SUPPLY-THE FRUIT MARKS ACT.
Subtopic:   CEDAR RAPIDS MANUFACTURING AND POWER COMPANY.
Permalink
LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

My hon. friend is in error as to the charter running out. If it had run out there might be some force in what he has said, but the charter has not run out. They came here some time ago asking for the approval of their plans, and they had still quite a number of months within which to exercise the rights contained in the charter. The charter will not expire until some time in June next.

Topic:   SUPPLY-THE FRUIT MARKS ACT.
Subtopic:   CEDAR RAPIDS MANUFACTURING AND POWER COMPANY.
Permalink
CON

Thomas Simpson Sproule

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SPROULE.

This is the last session and it is practically an expiration of the charter.

Topic:   SUPPLY-THE FRUIT MARKS ACT.
Subtopic:   CEDAR RAPIDS MANUFACTURING AND POWER COMPANY.
Permalink
LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

If I had approved of the plan when they came to me, they would have had ample time to expropriate the land before the charter expired. But I thought it proper, as a courtesy to the government of the United States, to refer the whole matter to the International Waterways Commission. What they feel is that there will not be a report from the commission in time to enable them to expropriate the land before the charter expires, and that is why they come here. But I think the extension they ask for is too long, I think it should be made not longer than 1911 or 1912.

Topic:   SUPPLY-THE FRUIT MARKS ACT.
Subtopic:   CEDAR RAPIDS MANUFACTURING AND POWER COMPANY.
Permalink
CON

Thomas Simpson Sproule

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SPROULE.

The minister seems to have only one anxiety, that is, to give them a renewal so that they may expropriate the land. What strikes me is that we are giving them forever, practically, control over the water-power, and if we did not renew the charter at this session of parliament it would die. Since they have kept, practically, the whole limit of the time without taking advantage of it, except doing some preliminary work, I do not think it would be any great hardship, in view of the fact that we are on the eve of starting a new policy with regard to these waterways, if we kept the waterway in the hands of the authorities that own it.

Topic:   SUPPLY-THE FRUIT MARKS ACT.
Subtopic:   CEDAR RAPIDS MANUFACTURING AND POWER COMPANY.
Permalink
CON

George Halsey Perley

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. PERLBY.

I raised this question merely on general principles. I have nothing to say against this particular project,

I do not know who the gentlemen are that are interested in it. But I agree with what the minister has said. We want to get our powers developed as fast as we can; if the government do not do it, we must find some private corporations to do it. But we ought to consider carefully whether, in the future, we ought not to insist that before we grant any such charters, some evidence of good faith should be given, and some evidence of the ability of the parties to put the work through. We ought to take the stand that no charters of this kind should be granted giving valuable water-powers, when the promoters wish to get them simply for the purposes of speculation, because we all know that these water-powers are going to be of immense value. However, in this case there seems to be no opposition to the Bill in committee, and I think we might agree with the minister's suggestion that the date to which the expropriation powers are extended should be changed from 1914 to 1911. That would give them ample time. If they really mean business, two years are lots of time for them to do all they want to do.

Topic:   SUPPLY-THE FRUIT MARKS ACT.
Subtopic:   CEDAR RAPIDS MANUFACTURING AND POWER COMPANY.
Permalink
LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

I move in amendment, in section 1, line 4, to strike out the word * 1914 ' and substitute therefore the word ' 1911.'

Topic:   SUPPLY-THE FRUIT MARKS ACT.
Subtopic:   CEDAR RAPIDS MANUFACTURING AND POWER COMPANY.
Permalink
LIB

Gilbert Howard McIntyre (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER.

I am afraid the motion cannot be accepted without notice, and so far as I know there has been no notice. In the case of a private Bill in Committee of the Whole, there must be notice of any amendment of any serious importance.

Topic:   SUPPLY-THE FRUIT MARKS ACT.
Subtopic:   CEDAR RAPIDS MANUFACTURING AND POWER COMPANY.
Permalink

March 26, 1909