February 16, 1909

CON

Haughton Lennox

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. LENNOX.

It is always understood that he has the right to go before a jury.

Topic:   ILLICIT OR SECRET COMMISSIONS.
Permalink
LIB

Daniel Duncan McKenzie

Liberal

Mr. McKENZIE.

I think it will be conceded by lawyers that uniformity in procedures is highly desirable, and that in all criminal matters, as the criminal law is uniform in Canada, is the only statutory law perhaps that is purely uniform, we should have a uniform procedure. I think therefore that so far as procedure is concerned-and it is procedure we are discussing now-the code of criminal procedure should be made in its entirety to apply to this law, which is a criminal law. If the Minister of Justice will make the procedue of the code apply absolutely and unequivocally to this law, I do not think that the lawyers in this House, particularly those who are versed in criminal law, would have any fault to find. I have had something to do, both as a lawyer and a little as a judge, with the administration of the criminal law, and I have not heard much fault found with the present conditions of the criminal law, as laid down in the criminal code. I think it is conceded by all criminal lawyers that tho

accused is sufficiently protected, that he has every right that he could possibly expect to a fair trial, if he has a right to elect in some instances to be tried before a magistrate. It is only in very rare instances that he must be tried before a magistrate on a criminal offence. There are a few cases, I think, which apply distinctly to sailors and other parties who commit offences, and who are about to leave the town, and must leave the town, in a short time; I think there are a few cases in which they must be tried before the magistrate, and the jurisdiction of the magistrate is absolute Apart from these, there are few instances indeed where you can force a man to be tried before a magistrate without his consent. I think, therefore, the procedure, so far as this Bill is concerned, should be in every particular the same as the procedure applying to every section of the code, no more and no less, and great care should be taken that no ingenuity can show that there is any difference, because this is really a thing that should be a part of the code, and to which of course all the safeguards of the code should apply. If this is a criminal offence, it is certainly not the intention of the Minister of Justice that a man caught under this law, should have less protection than a man who is caught under some section of the code. If therefore, we have absolute certainty of a uniform procedure, and that the same safeguards are provided under this law as under the code generally, I do not think the profession or the country will have any fault to find.

Mr, AYLESWORTH. Perhaps the best course to meet the views of hon. gentlemen would be, before the preamble is put to the committee, that the committee should rise, and in the interval before the Bill is taken up again, clauses can be framed to meet the suggestion which has been made.

Progress reported.

Topic:   ILLICIT OR SECRET COMMISSIONS.
Permalink

CIVIL SERVICE SALARIES.


House again in committee to consider the proposed resolution to grant an increase of salary to certain members of the Civil Service.


LIB

Charles Murphy (Secretary of State of Canada)

Liberal

Hon. CHARLES MURPHY (Secretary of State).

When this resolution was last before the committee, an understanding was reached between the leader of the opposition, the hon. member for North Toronto (Mr. Foster) and the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Fisher), that the resolution would be amended so as to cover the suggestions that were then made regarding the manner in which the moneys to be paid under this Bill, when finally adopted, should be provided. The Minister of Agriculture is obliged to be absent for a) short time, and he has asked me to present the amendment which meets the views that were expressed Mr. McKenzie.

when the discussion, to which I have referred, took place. I may say that in order to give full effect to the suggestions of my hon. friends opposite, it is proposed to prepare schedules detailing the expenditure that will be detailed under this Bill in each department. These schedules will be printed with the Bill, and will form part of the Bill ; so that full information will be afforded, and thusi the views expressed by the hon. member for North Toronto will be fully met. I understand it is not intended to do more to-day than move this amendment and ask that the resolution as amended be reported. I therefore beg to move that the resolution be amended by striking out all the words following the word 'granted ' in the nineteenth line and substituting therefor the following:

And during the 'financial years ending March 31, 1909 and 1910 respectively, there may be paid out of the consolidated revenue fund of Canada such further moneys as may be required for the payment of increases of salary under the Act to be founded on this resolution, as have not been voted by parliament, the whole not to exceed the amounts as set forth in the schedules to the Act to be founded on this resolution.

Topic:   CIVIL SERVICE SALARIES.
Permalink
CON

George Eulas Foster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOSTER.

The objection that was made was that the resolution as submitted to the House gave the government the power to take whatever money might be necessary out of the consolidated revenue fund without specifying the amount in any more definite way. There was some talk across the floor in reference to it and this amendment fairly meets the view that was held by gentlemen on this side of the House and obviates that difficulty. Under this amendment schedules will be attached to the Act, a schedule which will give, for each department, the number of officers and the amounts in each division which are to be voted as an increase and consequently Will be just as explicit and just as full as would the items put through in the form of a vote in the estimates. As far as I can see that would be perfectly satisfactory. With that we agreed the other day to allow the resolution to be reported, but I stated expressly that we reserved the right, on the second reading of the Bill, to criticise the principle of the resolution. Just before the resolution is passed I want to invite the attention of the House for a moment to two or three salient points, with regard to which, for myself, I consider the resolution is not a wise one. They can be thought over, and hon. gentlemen, exercising each his own judgment, may be able to express their own thoughts with regard to them. I may be wrong in the view I take of the matter. It is rather complex but this seems to be what this resolution aims at. It gives into the hands of

the government a sum of money equal to $150 for each clerk employed or each official under the present Civil Service Act. These clerks are divided roughly into three clagses as they are combined now and have been since the first of September. There is the class of outside insiders, who were not part of the permanent service but who, under this Act, were drafted into the Civil Service and became thereby permanent with all the rights and privileges of the permanent service. There was also a class of official possible of creation by appointment and paid out of lump votes and civil government contingencies who, being appointed previous to the first day of September, became thereby eligible to be transferred into the permanent list with all its rights and privileges. There was the third class, the old permanent civil servants, who, of course, remain in the Civil Service. What this resolution does is this: It puts no bar to the class that I have mentioned, who were formerly the outside insiders, paid for out of lump sums or out of civil government contingencies, receiving, each one, the flat increase of $150 even though three days previous to the time set for the Act coming into force, the first day of September, a person in this class may have received an increase of $100, or $200, or $500, or $700. There is no bar; each one of these may have the $150 flat increase. There is no bar also to the person who was a late new appointee and who, being appointed late, stepped over into the permanent list as it is organized and established under the provisions of the Civil Service Act amendments. These also are not barred from receiving the $150 increase. But when you come to the old permanent service, those who had to scratch gravel to get into the service, who had to pass the examination, and had to submit themselves to all the rules, you find there are bars. What are these bars? They are these: First, if it so happens, under a set of circumstances, that the old servant was within less than $150 of the maximum of his class, whatever his class might be, say for example that he was within $50 of his maximum, he cannot receive the $150 increase. He can receive only the difference between the $150 flat increase and his unappronriated maximum which, in the case to which I refer, would be $50. Here is, to my mind, the injustice. There is 'the man who was in the outside inside service who, on the first of September received his increase of $200 or $300, or $500 to compensate for hard times, straightened circumstances and the increased cost of living. There is no bar to him, he gets his $150 out of this sum that we are going to vote, but the man who had been in the permanent service, who got in by passing the examination, who submitted to the regulations,

proved himself fit and who struggled up for fifteen or twenty years under these conditions^ of increased cost of living gets none of this flat increase if he is at his maximum and gets only $50 if he is within $50 of it, according to the circumstances. That does not appeal to me as being fair, and it is against that that I protest. There seems to be an undue preference given to the outsider and the man who has borne the heat and burden of the day as regards the principle of the Act, who has submitted to its regulations and rules, is discriminated against in the manner that I have stated. When we come to the second reading of the Bill, I intend to adduce a great many instances of this kind and to try and plead with the House for some amelioration of the condition of those whom I consider are worthy servants and are being used somewhat unfairly, under the arbitrary principle which has been introduced into the resolution.

Topic:   CIVIL SERVICE SALARIES.
Permalink
LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER.

I understand the criticism of my hon. friend (Mr. Foster) but I do not understand the remedy which he has in his own mind. I do not know whether the remedy which he suggested was that we should decrease the bounty! given by parliament to those in the inside outside service, or whether we should increase the bounty given to the permanent servants. I take it that his suggestion is that he should increase the bounty given by parliament to the permanent regular service, that is to those who have reached the limit of their class and that we should! in some way compensate them by giving them more than they would receive under this measure. I am not prepared to express any opinion at the present time, but I suppose we shall have to examine the criticism of my hon. friend in due time, but l would like to know from my hon. friend as to the schedule to be attached to this Bill. I understood that it was the intention of the Minister of Agriculture that the schedule should provide for each department the maximum or the total amount which it is intended to give.

Topic:   CIVIL SERVICE SALARIES.
Permalink
CON
LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER.

The Minister of Agriculture stated also that he expected to have a list of the names of those who leceived additions to their salary. That is not the way we prepare our estimates; we say so many in eacti class and so on. It is immaterial to me how it is done, but I understood that the totals were to be given in the schedule, the details being communicated to the House.

Topic:   CIVIL SERVICE SALARIES.
Permalink
CON

George Eulas Foster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOSTER.

That is what I intended to say. I made my criticism so tha.t my right hon. friend and others could think it over. If there was an injustice there is some way by which it can be remedied.

Sir WILFRID LAIlRlER. Hear, hear.

Topic:   CIVIL SERVICE SALARIES.
Permalink
CON

George Eulas Foster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOSTER.

And when we come to the second reading of the Bill, we will probably have wisdom enough to know how it can be remedied.

Resolution reported.

Topic:   CIVIL SERVICE SALARIES.
Permalink

SUPPLY.


House in Committee of Supply. Indians, British Columbia-Salaries, $26,020. Relief of destitute Indians, British Columbia, $9,000.


CON

George Henry Bradbury

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BRADBURY.

In the settlement of St. Peter's reserve, was there any arrangement made by which minors could transfer the land. My reason for asking that question is that a number of young men under twenty-one years of age, some only eighteen years of age, have sold their land and I have several complaints from parents regarding that matter.

Topic:   SUPPLY.
Permalink
LIB

Frank Oliver (Minister of the Interior; Superintendent-General of Indian Affairs)

Liberal

Hon. FRANK OLIVER (Minister of the Interior).

I am informed that the land did not go to the minors; it went to the parent and the parent had the right of disposition.

Topic:   SUPPLY.
Permalink
CON

George Henry Bradbury

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BRADBURY.

There is some mistake in that, because these young men have parted with their rights. I know of one case in particular where a young man twenty-one years old had the patent issued in his name, as I understand, and he sold his land.

Topic:   SUPPLY.
Permalink
LIB

Frank Oliver (Minister of the Interior; Superintendent-General of Indian Affairs)

Liberal

Mr. OLIVER.

The terms of the surrender did not provide for grants being given to minors, and if there are any such transactions they are outside of the arrangement and are of course of no effect.

Topic:   SUPPLY.
Permalink
CON

Richard Blain

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BLAIN.

This is rather an important item and the minister ^hould give some explanation.

Topic:   SUPPLY.
Permalink
LIB

Frank Oliver (Minister of the Interior; Superintendent-General of Indian Affairs)

Liberal

Mr. OLIVER.

Assistance is given to the hospitals at the rate of $1 per day for Indians, only up to 1,000 days and 75 cents per day over that number. The expenditure for 1907-8 was $26,989.43. Medical and hospital attendance and medicines, are provided for Indians who cannot afford to pay. The physicians are either upon salaries, which represent a fair remuneration according to the number of Indians and for services and medicine supplied, or, when paid by accounts, they are allowed the lowest possible charges made to poor white cases. Medicines are supplied to medical missionaries and distributed to Indians under their charge. The following are the hospitals and the amount granted : Lytton $1,500 ; Kincolith, $1,500 ; Port Simpson, $2,000 ; Hazelton, $2,000 ; Bella Bella, $2,000; Clayoquot, $1,500; Telegraph Creek, $2,000 ; Alert Bay, $1,500.

Topic:   SUPPLY.
Permalink

February 16, 1909