February 5, 1909

LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER.

Well, although supported by considerable authority, my hon. friend conceded also that the question was not free from doubt. As I understand the quotation of m* hon. friend from such an eminent authority as Mr. Gladstone, it went to show that he argued that the treaty of the sovereign is paramount and that parliament has no authority in the matter. Then, it will depend upon the terms of the treaty as to whether or not the treaty, to become effective, has to be supplemented by the action of parliament or whether it is complete by the exercise of the power of the King. In my opinion this treaty is such that it is complete by the signature of the

sovereign. Whether or not the treaty is wise or unwise, at the present time, it is legal, in my humble judgment. If it were declared that the treaty had to be supplemented by the action of parliament, then parliament would have to pronounce upon it. If, on the other hand, the power of the King is complete, then it will be open to parliament to censure or approve the treaty as the case might be within the exercise of its power in that respect. But that is a question beyond the issue. The main question that was introduced to the House by my hon. friend on a former occasion was as to whether the treaty should he communicated to the people. For my part, I agree altogether with my hon. friend. I see no reason whatever, the moment the treaty has been signed, and even before it is ratified by the sovereign, why it should not be communicated to parliament. I am at one with my hon. friend as to that. It has not been the practice to do so. I am very glad that my hon. friend has brought to my attention the authority of Todd upon the subject, showing that what has been the usage of parliament has been departed from in three cases.

Topic:   SUPPLY-CANADIAN RAILWAYS.
Subtopic:   THE INTERNATIONAL WATERWAYS TREATY.
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CON

Robert Laird Borden (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. R. L. BORDEN.

Four.

Topic:   SUPPLY-CANADIAN RAILWAYS.
Subtopic:   THE INTERNATIONAL WATERWAYS TREATY.
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LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER.

In the four cases which are cited the usage of parliament in this respect has not been followed. I must say that I was not aware of this, and I shall take the opportunity of looking over the authorities myself and' again call the attention of the Colonial Office to them. I repeat what I said a moment ago that for my part I see no reason at all why, the moment the treaty has been signed by the plenipotentiaries, it should not be communicated to the parties interested. I might observe to my hon. friend that while the treaty has been submitted to the Senate of the United States, according to the terms of the constitution, it has not been communicated to the House of Representatives.

Topic:   SUPPLY-CANADIAN RAILWAYS.
Subtopic:   THE INTERNATIONAL WATERWAYS TREATY.
Permalink
CON

Robert Laird Borden (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. R. L. BORDEN.

No, certainly not.

Topic:   SUPPLY-CANADIAN RAILWAYS.
Subtopic:   THE INTERNATIONAL WATERWAYS TREATY.
Permalink
LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER.

Therefore, in that respect the Americans have themselves accepted the usage that the treaty is not to be communicated to the public until it has been ratified, but we must recognize that parliamentary usage must develop with the times. In former days when the press had not the power that it has at this moment it was quite consistent that a treaty should not be communicated to the people until it had been ratified by His Majesty the King. But in these later days when the press has acquired such power in the national life of every country, I think it would be not a disadvantage but an advantage to the country itself to know what are the provisions of the treaty in which it is interested before it is ratified. If the 21

parliamentary usage were to be changed in that respect it would be an improvement, and it would give more satisfaction to the people of Canada. I repeat that I have no fault to find with my hon. friend, but that on the other hand I agree with him and I shall look at the authorities to which he has called my attention and then communicate with the Colonial Office with reference to the matter.

Topic:   SUPPLY-CANADIAN RAILWAYS.
Subtopic:   THE INTERNATIONAL WATERWAYS TREATY.
Permalink
CON

John Graham Haggart

Conservative (1867-1942)

Hon. JOHN HAGGART (South Lanark).

Mr. Speaker, in support of the position taken by my hon. friend the leader of the opposition (Mr. R. L. Borden), I may say a few words in reference to this interesting question. The paramount power to make a treaty is with the Crown, provided the treaty does not interfere with a subject's allegiance to His Majesty or deprive him of any property. The doctrine was laid down and discussed in this House again and again during the debate on the Washington treaty, and upon several other occasions. The doctrine was also laid down in a case which was decided in reference to South Africa. South Africa at one time was acquired by the British forces. After remaining two or three years in possession of the British it was ceded by an Act of the sovereign by the exercise of his paramount power. An action was brought by a subject owning property in the South African Republic on the ground that he was deprived of his allegiance by the Act of his sovereign. The court held that he was not deprived of his allegiance because the possession which was acquired did not form part or parcel of the empire and the Crown had the right to dispose of it. But at the same time, the Privy Council upheld the doctrine that no act depriving a subject of his allegiance or depriving him of any part of his property which was part and parcel of the British empire, without the consent of the parliament of the country, was legal. I hold that to be an incontrovertible doctrine. The sovereign has the paramount power to exercise the right of disposition with respect to any property provided it does not interfere with the allegiance of a subject or take a portion of the empire and give it to another. This treaty cannot do so. I suppose it does not deprive any subject of his allegiance or property and it is therefore in the paramount power of the sovereign. But, the modern doctrine is this: Parliament claims the right now, having acquired the right by the practice to which my hon. friend has referred and in respect to which he has quoted authorities, of being a party to the treaty. We take the ground that everything affecting the interests of the colony or the Dominion, it being within the British empire, must receive our consideration. We claim that 1 right and we must have it. I think that

under the constitution, the right of the Crown is undoubted if it does not interfere with our allegiance or deprive us of our property, but the modern constitutional doctrine which we have acquired by practice. is that any treaty affecting our interests shall be submitted to the parliament of this country for its consideration and approval.

Topic:   SUPPLY-CANADIAN RAILWAYS.
Subtopic:   THE INTERNATIONAL WATERWAYS TREATY.
Permalink

Motion agreed to, and House went into Committee of Supply Department of Agriculture-.Salaries (including G. P. O'Halloran at $6,000) $322,100. Contingencies, $13,500.


CON

Thomas Simpson Sproule

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SPROULE.

What accounts for the large increase in this item?

Topic:   SUPPLY-CANADIAN RAILWAYS.
Subtopic:   THE INTERNATIONAL WATERWAYS TREATY.
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LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Hon. SYDNEY FISHER (Minister of Agriculture).

195 clerks have been brought from the outside service into the inside service and the increase is entirely due to that, with the exception of the statutory increases.

Topic:   SUPPLY-CANADIAN RAILWAYS.
Subtopic:   THE INTERNATIONAL WATERWAYS TREATY.
Permalink
CON

John Barr

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BARR.

Were any new officials appointed?

Topic:   SUPPLY-CANADIAN RAILWAYS.
Subtopic:   THE INTERNATIONAL WATERWAYS TREATY.
Permalink
LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

There is no increase otherwise than by bringing in the Experimental Farm branch, the Statistical branch, the Seed branch, the Veterinary and Live Stock branch, the Dairy branch, and the Archives, as provided in the Act of last session.

Topic:   SUPPLY-CANADIAN RAILWAYS.
Subtopic:   THE INTERNATIONAL WATERWAYS TREATY.
Permalink
CON

John Barr

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BARR.

Have the salaries been increased all along the line?

Topic:   SUPPLY-CANADIAN RAILWAYS.
Subtopic:   THE INTERNATIONAL WATERWAYS TREATY.
Permalink
LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

There are 13 who by the reorganization of the inside service get increases.

Topic:   SUPPLY-CANADIAN RAILWAYS.
Subtopic:   THE INTERNATIONAL WATERWAYS TREATY.
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CON

Joseph Elijah Armstrong

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. ARMSTRONG.

What is the total of the salaries for each of the different branches of the department?

Topic:   SUPPLY-CANADIAN RAILWAYS.
Subtopic:   THE INTERNATIONAL WATERWAYS TREATY.
Permalink
LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

Experimental Farm, Ottawa, $31,700; Public Health, $6,450; Health of animals, $21,250; Live Stock, $12,100; Seed division, $24,900; Dairy division, $30,500; Meat and canned foods inspection, $6,250; Cold storage, $3,200; Exhibition, $2,500; Census and statistics, $28,450; Archives, $28,212.

Topic:   SUPPLY-CANADIAN RAILWAYS.
Subtopic:   THE INTERNATIONAL WATERWAYS TREATY.
Permalink
CON

Thomas Simpson Sproule

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SPROULE.

How many of these 193 have entered the service as permanent clerks without having passed the Civil Service examination?

Topic:   SUPPLY-CANADIAN RAILWAYS.
Subtopic:   THE INTERNATIONAL WATERWAYS TREATY.
Permalink
LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

Twenty-one clerks who were formerly paid out of Civil government contingencies had passed the Civil Service examination. The others were appointed from the outside service which did not require the Civil Service examination, but it is possible that a few of them had passed the examination

Topic:   SUPPLY-CANADIAN RAILWAYS.
Subtopic:   THE INTERNATIONAL WATERWAYS TREATY.
Permalink
CON

Thomas Simpson Sproule

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SPROULE.

What I want is the percentage of those temporary clerks who are now put into the permanent service with-Mr. .1. G. HAGGART.

out having passed the qualifying examination.

Topic:   SUPPLY-CANADIAN RAILWAYS.
Subtopic:   THE INTERNATIONAL WATERWAYS TREATY.
Permalink
LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

I do not think the hon. gentleman quite understands the situation. These clerks were not temporary clerks, and were not in the Civil Service at all. Though their labours were in Ottawa, they were in outside branches. But, under the Act of last session, they were brought into the inside service, Before that change, they were not paid as civil servaiits, but were paid out .of lump votes, as, for instance, the vote for the Archives, the vote for the Dairy Branch, and so on. But there were temporary clerks who were in the Civil Service under the operation of the old Civil Service Act. These were paid out of civil government contingencies, which was a lump vote under civil government. But, under the old Act, they were required to pass the qualifying examination. There were 21 of them in my department, and they all had passed the qualifying examination and held their certificates. But the rest of this total number of 193 were not in that category, they were not in the Civil Service at all, though they were in the employ of the country, and had not been required to pass the examination, but had been appointed on their merits. These are now brought into the inside service.

Topic:   SUPPLY-CANADIAN RAILWAYS.
Subtopic:   THE INTERNATIONAL WATERWAYS TREATY.
Permalink
CON

Thomas Simpson Sproule

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SPROULE.

I was judging from the beading of the list, ' Outside and temporary.' But if all these 21 have passed the examiners, how was it that they were temporary clerks?

Topic:   SUPPLY-CANADIAN RAILWAYS.
Subtopic:   THE INTERNATIONAL WATERWAYS TREATY.
Permalink

February 5, 1909