July 15, 1908

LIB

George Perry Graham (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Liberal

Hon. GEO. P. GRAHAM (Minister of Railways and Canals).

As my hon. friend says, the restoration of navigation is the supreme object. That is being done as quickly as possible. We cannot allow anything .to be done that is at all liable to place us at the risk of another accident of that kind. There is a large dam of a horseshoe shape. One of the difficulties found is if the current is allowed to be made fairly swift steamers coming down are liable to strike that dam, and it might be carried away and we would be in trouble again.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   ACCIDENT TO THE CORNWALL CANAL.
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CON

Robert Abercrombie Pringle

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. PRINGLE.

The currents will go away from the dam towards the mill.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   ACCIDENT TO THE CORNWALL CANAL.
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LIB

George Perry Graham (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Liberal

Mr. GRAHAM.

Coming from the west is the difficulty. I discussed with the engineer last night the whole situation. He informed me that the curve in the canal was too sharp. I went over a rough sketch, and we decided it would be wise in the interests of navigation, apart from any consideration of the mills altogether, to widen out in one or two places so as to make the turn for vessels a little easier and ensure the safety of the cribwork as

well as improving navigation. He has also put in a crib west of the dam, so that vessels will strike the crib first and avoid the dam. It would be in the interests of navigation to widen out the channel in one or two spots, and that would also give the mills more water.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   ACCIDENT TO THE CORNWALL CANAL.
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L-C

Samuel Hughes

Liberal-Conservative

Mr. SAM. HUGHES.

Has the hon. gentleman inquired into the accuracy of the statement made that about a year ago the department was notified of the liability of a break at this point in the Cornwall canal? It is understood that Captain Donnelly had made that statement.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   ACCIDENT TO THE CORNWALL CANAL.
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LIB

George Perry Graham (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Liberal

Mr. GRAHAM.

The department are not able to find any such communication. The bank all along certain parts of the canal is a difficult bank to protect, and certain opinions have been expressed verbally, but I never heard any suggestion that there was danger of a break at this particular point.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   ACCIDENT TO THE CORNWALL CANAL.
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THANKSGIVING DAY.

CON

Albert Edward Kemp

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. KEMP.

A large number of our citizens think it desirable to have Thanksgiving Day on Monday instead of Thursday. Many people would like to visit their friends or relatives at a distance, and on that account would prefer Monday to Thursday. I have in mind particularly the commercial travellers. They are much in favour of the change, because that will enable them to pass the holiday with their families.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   THANKSGIVING DAY.
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LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER.

We have received representations on this subject from several organizations, especially the commercial travellers. They have been informed officially that this year Thanksgiving Day will be on Monday instead of Thursday.

1 boar two years old $180

1 boar yearling 160

1 boar yearling 80

1 boar under one year

651 boar under one year

801 boar under seven months

351 brood sow 4 yearly sows

[DOT] [DOT] [DOT] 1603 sows, eight months

2552 hogs, eight months

321 hog, eight months (died)

161 sow (died)

150

This amount was paid to Mr. Brethour by the department on the 5th of April 1905. The department ordered a veterinary surgeon to go to Point Edward and examine the hogs when in quarantine. In a letter to Dr. Rutherford, Director Veterinary General, Ottawa, addressed to him by Mr. Perdue, I find the following :

Chatham, November 21, 1901.

It is a question hard to decide whether the bogs contracted the disease while at St. Louis or at Point Edward. Dr. Brown is of the opinion that these hogs became infected while at St. Louis, as one was coughing when it arrived at Point Edward, and was the first to succumb to the disease. The second hog that died I examined and found one of his lungs almost entirely hepatized.

Mr. Brethour applied for compensation and on December 21, 1901, the Minister of Agriculture wrote him as follows :

Dear Mr. Brethour,-I have yours of December 21 with reference to the hogs slaughtered at the Prince Edward quarantine. I note what you say with regard to the exposure of your hogs and will carefully consider the whole matter with Dr. Rutherford. On the first blush, however, I cannot see any possibility of paying compensation.

Yours very truly,

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   THANKSGIVING DAY.
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SYDNEY FISHER.

CON

Richard Blain

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. R. BLAIN (Peel).

I wish to direct the attention of the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Fisher) to a matter in connection with his department. During the St. Louis exhibition, held in 1904, two gentlemen from Western Ontario, in connection with their own private business, exhibited hogs at that exhibition. On their return to Canada these hogs were placed in quarantine at Point Edward. While there they were slaughtered under instructions of the department. In the Auditor General's Report of 1906 I find, at page D-10, that Mr. J. E. Brethour, Burford, Ont. received compensation for his eighteen hogs, amounting to $1,533, and that Messrs. Douglas & Sons, Mitchell, Ont. were paid $932 for twelve hogs slaughtered on account of disease. 1 have before me, in the return brought down, the prices paid. On November 4, 1904, they were slaughtered, and the compensation allowed Mr. Brethour was as follows :

Although I have the correspondence before me, I shall refrain from putting on 1 Hansard ' any further extracts from it, as our time is very limited. I now find a list of the hogs owned by Messrs. Douglas & Son. These were the prices paid by the minister for compensation to this firm :

Lady Amherst

Letty

Blain's last

Maplehurst Queen

Full sister to above

Maplecliff Pointer

Maplehearst Leader

Thoroughbred boar

Thoroughbred boar under 6 months. Thoroughbred boar under 6 months.

Store hog

Store hog

These gentlemen made application to the department for compensation. I have read a letter written by the minister that on

examination of the matter, ' at first blush ' he could not find that any compensation was due or could be paid by the department to Mr. Brethour. But in the correspondence I notice a letter from the hon. gentleman who represents South Perth (Mr. G. H. McIntyre) in which one of these gentlemen hve. It Is as follows ;

St. Marys, Ont., December 13, 1901. Hon. Sydny Fisher,

Minister of Agriculture, Ottawa.

Dear Sir,-Mr. Dunbar has asked me to forward you the inclosed letter from him in reference to a very unfortunate loss of valuable stock that has come to the Messrs. Dou glas, who were Canadian exhibitors at the St. Louis fair.

I am not aware of your departmental re gulations in regard to the destruction of such diseased animals, and in regard to recouping owners for loss.

The public value of the enterprise the owners had been engaged in, and the special features in connection with the contracting of the disease, would seem to call for the most favourable consideration of the case that you can fairly give.

Yours sincerely,

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   SYDNEY FISHER.
Sub-subtopic:   SLAUGHTER OF HOGS.
Permalink

GILBERT H. McINTYRE.


Messrs. Douglas & Son had their case In the hands of a lawyer, Mr. Dunbar, of Mitchell. He gets in touch with the sitting member of the county who <Lius writes to the minister on behalf of these gentlemen. And, after some little correspondence-and an alteration in the Act, I may say-compensation at these enormous prices is paid by the minister. I have statements before me from other veterinaries who examined these hogs, and in view of these it seems surprising that compensation should be awarded. On November 3, 1904, a letter was written to Mr. M. B. Perdue, V.S., by Dr. Rutherford in the course of which he says, 'It is very important that the diagnosis should bo placed beyond question as the animals are valuable and under the regulations it will be impossible to pay compensation. The director general telegraphed to Arthur Brown, V.S., Sarnia, as follows : Ottawa, November 3, 1901. Arthur Brown, Y.S. Keep Douglas hogs strictly isolated. Will send consulting veterinary before ordering slaughter as compensation impossible. 3. G. RUTHERFORD. I shall not go at length into this case, but I would like to point out what the rega lations say as to payment of compensation : 1. Hogs affected with hog cholera or swine plague, or which have been in contact with or close proximity to hogs affected with either of the said diseases should on an order signed by a duly appointed inspector of the Department of Agriculture be forthwith slaughtered and the carcasses disposed of as in such order prescribed. 5. The Minister of Agriculture is hereby authorized to order compensation to he paid Mr. BLAIN. to the owners of such hogs at the rate set forth in subsection 2 of section 12 of the Animal Contagious Diseases Act, 1903, as amended by chapter 6 of the Statutes of 1904. The amended statute provides as follows : 4. In all cases, the value of the animal should be determined by the minister or by seme person appointed by him, but should not exceed, in the case of grade animals, one hundred and fifty dollars for each horse, sixty dollars for each head of cattle, and fifteen dollars for each pig or sheep; and in the case of pure-bred animals, three hundred dollars for each horse, one hundred and fifty dollars for each head of cattle, and fifty dollars for each pig or sheep. So you will see that if compensation was allowed at all under the Act, $50 is the highest price that could be paid by the minister for any bog. In this case the bon. gentleman has paid Messrs Douglas & Son $175 and Mr. Brethour as high as $180. At this stage of the session, time is so piecious that I will not dwell upon the case. I have mentioned the fact to show how some of the money is going. In view of such payments the people will not be surprised that the public expenditure is increasing every year. The Minister of Agriculture Is something of a czar in his department; whatever he says must go; if he says the price to be paid is $180 it is paid, even though the regulations and the law say that $50 is the highest price that may be paid. I suppose the minister will answer that these gentlemen were contributing to the public good and adding to the reputation of Canada in respect of swine breeding. Well, these gentlemen are private dealers in western Ontario. The department did not ask them to exhibit their hogs at the St. Louis exhibition as a government exhibit; they sent them of their own free will. The correspondence here points out that hog cholera was to be found at the St. Louis exhibition and one of these lots of hogs was close to swine affected with that disease. Judging from the correspondence I am led to believe that the bogs contracted the disease not at Point Edward in quarantine, but in the St. Louis exhibition. The minister, when the matter was first brought to [DOT]his attention, said that 'at first blush' compensation could not be given. I do not know how many blushes it took before he felt free to pay these enormous prices. Then, if these gentlemen had a right to compensation, they did not require a lawyer to present their case to the department, nor did they have to ask the influence of the gentleman who represents the county. Why should that hon. gentleman be requested to interfere ? Taking it altogether, it seems to me there was party politics in this matter and pay, because of this these gentlemen must he paid their price. I do not know what their politics are-nor do I care; that is not tlv; question before us. But I think the farmers of this country will think that such prices 130S9 as $175 are to be regarded as pretty excessive to be paid by the government for com pensation for bogs that were sent for exhibition as a private business enterprise. I await an explanation from the Minister of Agriculture of the excessive prices that he has ordered to be paid these gentlemen contrary to his own Act.


LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Hon. SYDNEY FISHER (Alinister of Agriculture).

I regret that the hon. gentleman (Mr. Blain) did not give me a little earlier notice of his intention to bring this subject forward. I merely got a slip of paper a few minutes ago that !he was going to deal with the subject

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   GILBERT H. McINTYRE.
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CON

Richard Blain

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BLAIN.

I rather apologize for the short notice.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   GILBERT H. McINTYRE.
Permalink
LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

The consequence is that I cannot answer the details of the case. I regret that, because I am sure there is a sufficient explanation to be given in regard to it. I have some memory of the case, but, not having had the opportunity to refresh my memory by reference to the files of the department, I cannot be sure of the details. The case was a very peculiar one, and that is why, when I first looked into it, I did not know whether there was any possibility of compensation or not. As a matter of fact, Air. Brethour and Douglas & Sons are well known hog breeders in the western part of Ontario. They were urged, not only by my department, but by the Department of Agriculture of the province of Ontario, to exhibit at the St. Louis exhibition. Efforts were made to get the stock breeders of Canada to do so, and assistance was given to them in taking their stock to St. Louis for the purpose of making a creditable showing of this country in the competition of live stock there. The result was that Canada did make a very creditable showing. My hon. friend said it was a matter of private business. 1 take exception to that. I think these men were public spirited citizens, and they were urged to take their stock to St. Louis.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   GILBERT H. McINTYRE.
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CON

Richard Blain

Conservative (1867-1942)

Air. BLAIN.

Did the department solicit these gentlemen to exhibit their hogs at St. Louis as a public enterprise ?

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   GILBERT H. McINTYRE.
Permalink
LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Air. FISHER.

Speaking from memory, I have no doubt that they did, though there may be nothing in the correspondence to that effect. At the same time, it is a well known fact that the Live Stock Commissioner of my department at that time went amongst the breeders of Canada and urged their taking part in the St. Louis exhibition, and the department went so far as to offer to pay extra prizes so as to encourage them to do so, and in order to get a creditable exhibit of Canadian live stock at that great exhibition.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   GILBERT H. McINTYRE.
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CON

Richard Blain

Conservative (1867-1942)

Air. BLAIN.

The department did not pay the expenses of taking these hogs to

the St. Louis exhibition. Does he say they did ?

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   GILBERT H. McINTYRE.
Permalink
LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Air. FISHER.

I am under the impression that we paid the expenses besides.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   GILBERT H. McINTYRE.
Permalink
CON

Richard Blain

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BLAIN.

There is not a word about it in the correspondence.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   GILBERT H. McINTYRE.
Permalink

July 15, 1908