July 13, 1908

LIB

George Perry Graham (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Liberal

Mr. GRAHAM.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   FLYING RED ENSIGN ON MERCHANT VESSELS.
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LIB

Hon. L. P. BRODEUR (Minister of Marine and Fisheries) : (Minister of Marine and Fisheries)

Liberal

1. Admiralty warrant, February 2, 1892.

2. Yes, with the exception of ships registered in the Dominions of Canada and New Zealand and the Commonwealth of Australia.

3. Answered by No. 1.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   FLYING RED ENSIGN ON MERCHANT VESSELS.
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BOUNDARIES OF MANITOBA.


Rt. Hon. Sir WILFRID LAURIER (Prime Minister) moved the following resolution : Whereas petitions have been presented to the government and to this House from the legislative assembly of Manitoba, praying for an extension of the boundaries of the said province northward and eastward, and for an additional subsidy to the said province in lieu of the ownership of public lands in the territory to be so added, lie it resolved, That it is expedient that the prayer of the said petition should be acceded to, and that upon such terms and conditions as may be agreed to by the said legislative assembly^ and by parliament, the boundaries of Manitoba be extended as follows: The northern boundary to be the sixtieth parallel of latitude; the western boundary to be the present eastern boundary line of the provine of Saskachewan to the said sixtieth parallel; the eastern boundary to be the present eastern boundary as far north as the northeast corner of the province, thence on a straight line to the most eastern point of Island lake, and thence on a straight line to the point where the eighty-ninth meridian of west longitude intersects the shore line of Hudson bay. And be it further resolved: That whereas notwithstanding the extension of territory above described, the ungranted lands of the Crown in the territory so to be added to the said province will still continue to be administered by the government of Canada for the purposes of the Dominion; and the said province will not have the public land as a source of revenue. It is just and equitable to recognize the increased cost of civil government which such extension of territory will occasion to the province, and in view of the premises, to make to the said province an increased allowance by money payment, the amount of which should be the subject of negotiation between the government of Canada and the government of Manitoba. And be it further resolved: That, upon the legislature of the province of Ontario consenting thereto, it is expedient to extend the boundaries of the said province, upon such terms and conditions as may be agreed to by the said legislature and by parliament, so as to include all the territory to the north of the said province lying between the extended boundaries of Manitoba above described and the waters of James bay and Hudson bay. And be it further resolved: That, upon the legislature of the province of Quebec consenting thereto, it is expedient to extend the boundaries of the said province, upon such terms and conditions as may be agreed to by the said legislature and by parliament so as to include all the territory to the north of the said province now known as Ungava, and extending to the waters of James bay and Hudson bay, and the entrance thereto. He said : The resolutions to which I now call the attention of the House provide for the extension, upon such terms and conditions as may be agreed to by the respective legislatures therein mentioned and by parliament, of the boundaries of Manitoba, Ontario and Quebec, out of that portion of the north ern territories which lies north of the same. This extension has been asked for by the legislature and executive of the province of Manitoba, and by the executives of the provinces of Ontario and Quebec. Here the question may be asked, whether it is desirable, or even possible, to create a new province or provinces out of the territory which lies north of the provinces of Quebec, Ontario and Manitoba. Simply to state the question is to suggest the answer. It has never occurred to any one, that out of that territory which extends north from the present frontiers of Manitoba, Ontario and Quebec, it were possible to form anything like a provincial organization. The conditions both of climate and soil preculde the possibility that there can ever be in that section of our country a population of such density as to suggest the desirability of forming a new province. Ungava, which is the largest of these territories, is known to be absolutely barren for agriculture; the same may be said, I think, of the section of country which extends north of the boundary of Ontario. With regard to the section which extends north of the province of Manitoba above Lake Winnipegosis and Lake Manitoba, there - is a portion which is known to be reasonably fertile and reasonably fit for agriculture, in the valley of the Saskatchewan but immediately beyond that, it is pretty generally admitted that the country is not fit for agriculture. In every one of these territories there is some possibility of timber and forest production. The resources in minerals are very promising, but like all things of this kind, until they ljave been actually tested and developed, they are uncertain. Under such circumstances therefore there is only one of two courses to follow. One is to continue to adminster this territory as we are doing at present; and the administration at the present time is practically nil, it simply provides for the administration of justice in case of crime committed, and some cases of a similar character, because there is practically no population in that territory. The other recommendation is to hand over this territory to the provinces which now claim it, and whose geographical form is such that it may be brought within the purview of their provincial and municipal organizations. Of these two courses before the government, the more reasonable, the more practical and the more expedient in the interest of all parties appeared to be that these respective territories should be annexed to the provinces of Manitoba, Ontario and Quebec, so that there might be the usual provincial and municipal administration as their development takes place. This course was contemplated, I may say by the fathers of confederation, because in the British North America Act of 1871, suggested by this parliament and the government of that day and passed by the British parliament, provision was made not only for the creation of new provinces out of the general Dominion territory but also for the extension of the provinces now existing. I call the attention of the House to section 3 of that Act which reads as follows : The parliament of Canada may from time to time, with the consent of the legislature of any province of the said Dominion, increase, diminish or otherwise alter the limits of such province, upon such terms and conditions as may be agreed to by the said legislature. We are therefore to-day just carrying out the intention which was embodied* in the Act. The case of Manitoba seems to be particularly pressing. Manitoba bas the smallest territory of all the western provinces and it Is a matter of public notoriety that there is in Manitoba a sentiment of disappointment, almost akin to Irritation, that the province has not been as liberally endowed as the adjacent provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan which were carved out of territory out of which the boundaries of the province of Manitoba could have been increased. We all sympathize with this sentiment and there is no reason that I can see why this desire for increased territory should not be gratified. There is a more important consideration and that is that at the present time we are taking measures and asking parliament to vote an appropriation for the construction of the Hudson's Bay Bailway ; that is to say, of a railway which is destined to connect the existing systems of railways on the prairies with Hudson bay. This railway Is not so much intended to develop local traffic as to provide an outlet to the sea-board for the ever increasing products of our western provinces. It bas therefore been thought advisable, not only advisable but I should say necessary, that immediate steps should be taken to provide for this new territory, municipal and provincial organization since it is provable that following the construction of this railway population must set into that territory and, therefore, the requirements of civilized man should be provided for in the way of administration and otherwise. These are the main reasons which have prompted us to ask parliament to assent to this resolution which I have placed on the table. In 1905 the province of Manitoba made a strong appeal to this parliament to have its boundaries extended but it seemed to the



government at that time wise and prudent, before acceding to the request, that the adjacent provinces of Ontario and Saskatchewan, which, perhaps, might have also a claim to the territory which was sought by Manitoba, should have an opportunity of being heard. We therefore extended an invitation to the several provinces to meet us and discuss this question. A conference took place in November, 1906, at which all the respective governments that I have just named were represented. The Dominion government was represented by the Prime Minister, the Minister of Justice and the Minister of the Interior ; the Ontario government by Mr. Whitney, the premier, Mr. Poy, the Attorney General, and Mr. Mathe-son, the Provincial Treasurer ; the government of Manitoba by Mr. Roblin, the Premier, Mr. Rogers and Mr. Campbell, the Attorney General, and Saskatchewan by Mr. Walter Scott, the Premier, and Mr. Lamont, the Attorney General. . The province of Saskatchewan, at that conference, through its representatives, asked to be allotted the territory which extends north-eastward of the provincial boundary to the shores of Hudson bay. After giving due consideration to this claim on the part of the province of Saskatchewan, it seemed to us, that, as between the claim of the province of Saskatchewan and of the province of Manitoba to have the territory which lies north of Manitoba and west of Saskatchewan allotted either one way or the other, the weight of argument was certainly in favour of Manitoba and we could not grant the prayer of Saskatchewan. We therefore had to ignore it. We are prepared to admit the claim of Manitoba to have its boundary extended northward up to the 60th parallel of latitude. But a difficulty arose as between the provinces of Manitoba and Ontario as to the extension of the boundary eastward. The claim of Manitoba was that its territory should be extended eastward, north of the Albany river, that is to say, between the Albany river and Hudson bay, to a meridian line drawn from the confluence of the Mississippi and Ohio rivers. Perhaps some hon. member may ask : Why bring the line of the confluence of the Mississippi and Ohio rivers into this question ? The older members of the House will remember that this line was exhumed out of old documents at the time of the controversy between Sir John Macdonald and Sir Oliver Mowatt as to the boundary line between Ontario and Manitoba. It is not necessary to go into that old controversy to-day but let me say at once that if the prayer of Manitoba had been granted and if its boundary had been extended over the northern boundary of Ontario between the. Albany river and the waters of Hudson bay as prayed for, the eastern boundary of Manitoba and the western boundary of Ontario in this new territory which is to be allotted would have been brought into the vicinity of the longitude of Sir WILFRID LAURIER. Fort William, Port Arthur and Lake Nepi-gon. The government did not think it would be advisable to agree to such a claim as that. On the other hand, the province of Ontario, represented on that occasion by Mr. Whitney, Colonel Matheson and Mr. Foy, urged that the boundary of Ontario should be the Churchill river, that the boundary of Manitoba should be a continuation of the present boundary of that province northward until it reached the Churchill river and then that the Churchill river should be the boundary between the two provinces. As the two provinces could not agree upon their respective claims it became the duty of the government to give to the matter its very best consideration and to endeavour to arrive at a conclusion which would commend itself to the judgment, not perhaps of both parties, but of all fair minded men. We could not agree to the claim of the province of Ontario that the Churchill river should be made the boundary for one very obvious reason which will, I think, commend itself to all those who do me the honour of listening to me. It is expected that the new railway to Hudson bay will have its terminus at Churchillin fact, it cannot have its terminus anywhere else. Churchill is known to be the best of the harbours on Hudson bay and perhaps the only harbour. The only rival harbour possibly is the harbour at the mouth of the Nelson river but I understand, although I speak subject to correction, that, as between the two harbours, Churchill is by far the preferable one. At all events, I think it is admitted that the mouth of the Churchill river should be the terminus of the railway. If the terminus of the railway is to be at the mouth of the Churchi'il river it is reasonable to expect that a town of some proportions must eventually grow up at the mouth of that river, and if you have the two provinces separated by the Churchill river, Manitoba on the one side and Ontario on the other, and a town growing up upon both sides of the river, it is manifest that complications would arise and that the progress of the city might be materially retarded for the necessity of having legislation either from one province or the other. Therefore, it is far preferable, far more convenient and far more suitable in every possible way that the city be either in one province or the other. Taking all these things into consideration we believed we could not grant the prayer of the province of Ontario to extend its boundary to the Churchill river. After giving the matter the best consideration we could we came to what we think is a fair conclusion and one which will be acceptable to all reasonable men, namely, to fix the boundary of Manitoba from the northeast corner of the province of Manitoba extending It over the height of land between the water system of the Hayes river and the Nelson river on one side and the water system of the Severn river on the other side. That was the idea which actuated us when we came to approach the subject and to decide upon it. Our first intention was to make the height of land between the Hayes river on the one side and the Severn river on the other, the boundary. But when we came to put this line upon the map we found that serious complications might arise if we were to say ipsissima verba that this height of land should be the boundary because we found that the height of land between the Hayes river and the Severn river did not extend all the way to the shore of Hudson bay but that it was met some distance from the shore by another height of land. The height of land between the Hayes river and the Severn river runs north and south, but at some distance from Hudson bay that height of land is met by another height of land which runs east and west. Therefore, while adhering to the same idea we had to express it otherwise and we determined that the boundary should be a straight line from the northeast comer of the present boundary of Manitoba to the east end of Island lake and thence to a straight line to the point where the eighty-ninth meridian of west longitude intersects the shore line of Hudson bay. This practically adheres to the height of land as the boundary so far as it can be done, but we do not put it in so many words for the reason wherein I have stated. I am aware that the boundary we have laid down has been disappointing perhaps to both parties. Judging by what I have seen of statements made by the premier of Manitoba he expresses disappointment although I do not believe it would be possible for the government or for parliament to concede in full the claims of Manitoba. I have seen some flaming articles in some newspapers stating that the rights of Ontario have been sacrificed in as much as the two harbours of Churchill and Nelson have been given to Manitoba. Well, Sir, I think the province of Ontario has enough of wealth and of territory and of glory to enable her to willingly concede to the sister province what little advantages there may be in that. Moreover, the traditions of history would seem to indicate that the Churchill and Nelson rivers should belong to Manitoba. They were the avenue of the fur trade in the olden times when the fur trade was all the trade there was, and if we were to take away from Manitoba what advantage there may be in this, I think Manitoba would be entitled to complain on sentimental grounds if not on other grounds. At all events I submit these reasons to the fair consideration of the House and I think they will impress themselves on all those who will give this matter impartial consideration.


CON

Robert Laird Borden (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. R. L. BORDEN.

What will be the respective areas of the provinces ?

Topic:   BOUNDARIES OF MANITOBA.
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?

Sid WILFRID LAURIER.

The new territory which is to be added to Manitoba will be about 180,000 square miles in round numbers. I had a precise calculation made on the basis of the height of land, but it is sufficient to observe the boundary now adopted will give to Manitoba added territory of about 180,000 square miles. The present area of Manitoba is 73,732 square miles and with the area to be added, her total area will be about 253,000 square miles. The territory of Ungava which is added to the province of Quebec is 180,000 square miles (water) and 266,000 square miles (land), or a total of 456,000 square miles. I have not the figures with regard to the province of Ontario, but I believe the added territory is in the neighbourhood of 140,000 square miles.

I have the figures as to the population which may be in the territory now being added to Manitoba. I made no inquiries as to the population of the territory to be added to Ontario or Quebec because I believe it is admitted that in this territory there is no white population. The population of the territory to be added to Manitoba, according to the last census, is as follows :

Memorandum re population of the parts of Northwest territory added to the Province of Manitoba under the resolution of 1908, as shown by the census of 1901.

Indian

and White Total.

Halfbreed.

Parts of the District of

Keewatin containing Black River :- 2 2Cross Lake 55 2 57Gods Lake 368 368Island Lake 525 525Nelson House 280 7 287Norway House.. .. 230 18 218Oxford House.. .. 339 6 315Fort Churchill.. .. 89 6 95Split Lake

Warren's Landing.. 263 3 26618 ti 21Yankee Point 12 1 13York Factory 212 5 217Totals from Keewatin.. 2,121 56 2,177Parts detached from Saskat chewan district by the Act of 1905, containing Cedar Lake 118 118Grand Rapids 133 ii 111Moose Lake 171 171Mossy Portage 5 5The Pas 793 20 813Totals from Saskatche- wan 1,223 31 1,251Making a total for the new area added to Manitoba of 3,641 87 3,731There is another consideration which

must engage the consideration of the government and of the House. We had always understood that the province of Manitoba in making this claim for the extension of her territory was asking for the ungranted

Crown lands, and in fact I remember that at the opening of the session my hon. friend from (Marquette (Mr. Roche) reminded me that the province of Manitoba wanted to have, as he pointedly remarked, her lands. But in the petition which has been sent by the legislature of Manitoba to the House during the present session the province has taken an altogether different attitude. In that petition the province asks, not for all the ungranted Crown lands, but for a money allowance in lieu of lands. It must be remembered that in this matter the Dominion is not a free agent. The constitution of the province of Manitoba gives the lands, not to the province, but to the Dominion. The terms under which the province of Manitoba has been admitted into the union are exactly the same in that respect as these under which the provinces of Saskatchewan and Alberta have been admitted. The province of Manitoba therefore asks that it should be given the same treatment as has been given to the provinces of Saskatchewan and Alberta. The claims of Manitoba in this respect are in my estimation somewhat exaggerated. These claims follow :

That supplementary and in addition to the prevailing provisions as to the annual allowance of the (province by the Dominion for cost of government, a per capita allowance of 80 cents a head of the population, there be inserted in any Act of the parliament of Canada extending the boundaries of the province as above set forth, the following provisions respecting capital account and in lieu of lands, such provisions in every respect being similar to and identical with those respecting said matters as are contained in certain Acts of the parliament of Canada, passed in the year 1905, creating the new provinces of Saskatchewan and Albeirta.

The memorial then goes on to say :

Inasmuch as the province of Manitoba is not in debt, it shall be entitled to be paid and to receive from the government of Canada, by half-yearly payments in advance, an annual sum of four hundred and five thousand three hundred and seventy-five dollars, being tin-equivalent of interest at the rate of five per cent per annum on the sum of eight million one hundred and seven thousand five hundred dollars.

I may say at once that this claim of the province of Manitoba to be given a certain allowance in lieu of public debt will not strike this House as at all tenable. Manitoba is not a new province. It has been a province now for more than forty years. It has received an allowance on account of public debt, as all the other provinces did when they came into confederation. The House does not perhaps remember at the moment the reason for the allowances on account of debt made to the provinces when they came into confederation. At the time of confederation the debt of the united provinces of Upper and Bower Canada amount-Sir WILFRID LAURIER.

ed to $67,000,000, and of this amount the Dominion assumed $62,100,000; that of Nova Scotia was $8,000,000 and that of New Brunswick $7,000,000. The Dominion assumed the debts of these two provinces. It was found that the debt per head of the population was larger .in the provinces of Upper and Lower Canada than in the provinces of Nova -Scotia and New Brunswick; and there was a provision introduced in the British North America Act to this effect:

In case the public debts of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick do not at the union amount to $8,000,000 and $7,000,000 respectively, -they shall respectively receive, by -half-yearly payments in advance from -the government of Canada, interest at -five per centum per annum on the difference between the actual amounts of their respected debts and such stipulated amounts.

That is to say, the government of the Dominion having assumed the debts of these four provinces at the amounts stated, it wras provided that if they idid not correspond to an equal standard, the provinces of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick should receive compensation from the treasury of Canada to bring them to a parity with the other provinces. In 1884 or 1S85 another arrangement was made whereby the government of the Dominion assumed the debts of Ontario and Quebec to the amount of $5,000,000 and gave equal treatment to all the other provinces of the Dominion, giving them a special allowance to bring them up to the standard with regard to the allotment of the debt. When the province of* Manitoba was taken into the Dominion, that province was given compensation for debt

because it had no debt at that time-similar to wrhat wras given to Nova Scotia and New Brunswick. When British Columbia was taken into confederation, the same thing was done with respect to that province. In fact, when any other province was taken into confederation it was given a special allowance in lieu of debt. But I do not think that the province of Manitoba has any claim whatever at the present time in that regard. It is true the public debt is much larger today than it was when Manitoba was admitted to the Dominion, but Manitoba has had the benefit of its share of that debt, which has gone into the construction of public works. So that there is no reason to depart from the arrangement that was made when Manitoba entered confederation. Then the province of Manitoba puts forward another claim in these words :

As an -additional -allowance -in lieu of public lands, there shall be paid by Canada to the province, annually by -half-yearly payments in advance, -for five years from the -time this Act comes into force, to provide -for the construction of necessary -public buildings, the sum of ninety-three thousand seven hundred and fifty dollars.

In view of the fact that grants were made to the provinces of Saskatchewan and Alberta for public buildings at the time they were taken into confederation, Manitoba asks that it should also be given a special grant for public buildings. I have only to say in answer that Manitoba has received more than once from the Dominion treasury grants for public buildings. But it seems to us that it is not unfair or unreasonable, since we are retaining the control of the Crown lands, that we should do for Manitoba what we have done for Saskatchewan and Alberta-indeed, what we have done for Manitoba herself, because on more than one occasion, as I can show, the Dominion has granted to Manitoba a special allowance in lieu of public lands, because it did not have them as a source of revenue. Therefore we are disposed to think-and we submit and commend it to the House-that Manitoba should receive compensation in lieu of the public lands, but what is to be the amount of this compensation, whether or not we should adopt the basis which was adopted for Saskatchewan and Alberta, is a question which at this time I do not think it would be fitting to discuss. The government simply ask that that matter should be left for negotiation between the Dominion government and the Manitoba government.

I have looked at the claims of Manitoba at the present time. I have my own opinion of them, but I do not think it would be advisable to-day to express this opinion. I think it is preferable to leave the matter at large, so that the negotiations which are to take place between Manitoba and the Dominion should not be prejudiced in any way by any opinion I might express at this moment. We simply declare that we are prepared to meet the province in a fair spirit.

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IND

William Findlay Maclean

Independent Conservative

Mr. W. F. MACLEAN.

Will the right hon. gentleman say whether the Hudson Bay Company comes into the calculation in any case?

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LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER.

The Hudson Bay Company does not come into consideration in this matter ; it has nothing whatever to do with it. With regard to the claims of the province of Ontario, they will be found in a sessional paper brought down last year, No. 64a, which gives a full account of the conference that took place here in November, 1906. The province of Ontario asked to have its territory extended to the Churchill river. To this extent we cannot recognize its claim, but we have suggested both to Ontario and Manitoba what seems to us a reasonable settlement for their respective claims. In proposing this resolution, it will be observed that we are not asking for any concrete legislation, we are not asking parliament to be bound fast and hard to any proposition.

We simply propose this as a reasonable settlement and basis upon which parliament ought to proceed in increasing the boundaries and territories of the provinces therein mentioned. If the boundary which we have suggested to Manitoba is not acceptable to that province, nothing can come out of it. We are confident, however, that on mature consideration it will be found difficult for either Ontario or Manitoba to suggest a fairer or more reasonable boundary than the one proposed in each

case.

Barring this exception, we are prepared to grant the claim of Ontario. We think it is legitimate and perfectly reasonable _ to that extent, and that it will be conducive to the best administration of that part of the territory we are prepared to give to Ontario, that it should be included at once in that province. One has only to look at the geographical condition, one has only to take a glance at the map, to realize that the territory we are asking parliament to grant resepectively to Manitoba, Ontario and Quebec, geographically forms part of

each of these provinces.

With regard to the province of Quebec, the claim is a new one. It has not been brought to the attention of the House before. It has been brought to the attention of the government by a memorial from the executive council of thmt province, 'which 1 shall lay on the table. This is dated 9th Vnvomhpv 1007 ;

In submitting to the House of Commons the Act to establish the provinces of AlWta and Saskatchewan, the Prime Minister of Canada declared as follows:

'Manitoba has asked to have her territory extended to the shores of Hudson hay; and this is a prayer which seems to me to be entitled to a fair hearing. The province of Manitoba is not, however the only one whose territory could be extended towards Hudson bav. The province of Ontario would have the same right; the province of Quebec would also have that right; and the new province of Saskatchewan also.' .

The governments of the provinces of Ontario, Manitoba and Saskatchewan are pressing on the Dominion government their respective claims for a share of the territory of ICee-watin and of the shore of Hudson bay, and tne government of this province submits that it has no desire to share in such partition, and will agree to what may be decided on this matter by the government of Canada.

On the other band the government of the province of Quebec is entitled to a portion of the shore of Hudson bay, and supports its claim thereto by the fallowing facts:

The country lying beyond the northern boundary of Quebec forms geographically part of the territory of this province. The country in question is wholly isolated from all other parts of Canada, being separated from them by a wide expanse of sea, and offering to other provinces than Quebec neither advantage nor interest.

For the province of Quebec the annexation

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IND

William Findlay Maclean

Independent Conservative

Mr. W. I. MACLEAN.

Does that include the islands which the province of Quebec ask for in that memorial?

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LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER.

No, it does not. If the territory of Ungava, which includes 456,000 square miles, were of the same character as to soil and climate as the valley of the St. Lawrence, we would not ask to have it added to the province of Quebec, but would -make it another province. The conditions, however, are such that it is not possible to expect any large influx of population into that country. In fact, we cannot expect any influx of popu-Sir WILFRID LAURIER

la-tion there at all unless there should be tne discovery of very large mineral deposits. Ungava has been known to civilized man for more than three hundred years. The French explorers knew it and explored it ; French missionaries visited it, but no settlement has taken place, and there are no white people there except a few traders and hunters and trappers connected with the Hudson Bay Company and with a new rival to that company-the Revillion Company. Outside the traders, hunters and trappers, I am not aware that there are any civilized men in Ungava. No development of any kind has taken place in that territory. Recent explorers assert that its climate and conditions are such as not to invite civilized settlement unless there should be discoveries of minerals. Under the circumstances, it seems to me that the prayer of the people of the province of Quebec, that this territory should he added to that province, is not unreasonable. I am aware that some nervousness has been expressed more than once on the floor of this House regarding any extension of territory to the province of Quebec, because that province is the pivot on which representation must take place. In 1896, by one of the last Acts of the late government, one, however, that we fully endorsed and carried out, the boundaries of the province of Quebec northwards were readjusted, and by this readjustment it is asserted that an addition was made to that province of 118,000 square miles.

I have heard this referred to more than once oh the floor of this House as being an invasion of the rights of the other provinces on the ground that probably it might have an effect on the distribution of the right of representation of the provinces. The point would have been taken with some degree of reasonableness if there had been any possibility at that moment-as there was not- of there being a population in that territory. But I am free to say, and everybody knows

it is a matter of general notoriety-that in the 118,000 square miles which are said to have been added in 1896 to the territory of Quebec, there is not one single voter, indeed not one single white man. And, in the new territory to he added to Quebec, under these resolutions, there is nothing of that kind to he expected. I-f the territory were of such a nature that it was reasonable to expect that there would be an influx of population there, the doubts which have been expressed more than once on the floor of this House as to the effect of this annexation would have to be considered. However, such as they are, I do not suggest that they should be minimized or ignored. I think it is a fair consideration to be brought to the attention of the Quebec legislature this nervousness expressed in some quarters, especially in the maritime provinces, that, possibly, the change

of conditions may have an effect upon representation.

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CON

George Eulas Foster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOSTER.

In making his calculation of 456,000 square miles territory of Ungava to be added to Quebec, has the right hon. Prime Minister taken into consideration the Newfoundland strip? If so, how has he got at the calculation of area ?

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LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER.

I have taken the calculations as I understand them to be made by the statistician. The strip of Newfoundland is not taken into consideration. No human being can say to-day where the boundary line is between Newfoundland and Canada. The matter is very much involved. It is now to be referred to arbitration, an agreement with the government of Newfoundland having been reached to that effect. If I remember well, it is to be left to the arbitration of the Privy Council. But I have read the memorial of the province of Newfoundland upon that and also the views presented by the province of Quebec; and their views are so much at variance that I would not presume to give an opinion. At all events, I do not know whether this includes the strip of laud of the Labrador coast. I cannot say as to that.

(Mr. FOSTER. Is there not a danger of complicating the matter if you give a definite territory out of Ungava to the province of Quebec and do not know the amount of territory that Newfoundland may ultimately be adjudged to own?

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LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER.

That difficulty will no more arise now than a similar difficulty arose in 1881, when the boundaries of Manitoba were extended to the frontier of Ontario. This is a matter that is to be settled by judicial authority. But whether tne territory continues to belong to Canada or is given to Quebec, at the present moment it does belong to Canada. We have taken the precaution to ask the province of Quebec to be a party to that arbitration, because it is interested in the boundary wherever it may ultimately be decided to be. In 1881, when the Act was passed extending the boundary of Manitoba to the frontier of Ontario, the contest was removed from Canada to Ontario and Manitoba-they were the parties who fought the issue. In the same way, if we allow this territory to go to Quebec, Quebec will become interested in the question. Then, though we retain our sovereignty, I think they should have a say and become a party to the question.

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CON

Edward Norman Lewis

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. E. N. LEWIS (West Huron).

In arranging all these matters, are precautions being taken to safeguard the immense forests there and, to that end, to establish forest reserves such as will be necessary 4064

for the future of the country, following the lead of the United States where immense sums of public money are now being spent in forest reserves?

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LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER.

One of the reasons why Quebec has asked for this territory is because that province is in a better position to take care of the forests than we are. They can follow trespassers and otherwise enforce regulations. This extension is advocated as one of the methods of preserving the forest, and that is one of the arguments put forward by Quebec.

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CON
LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER.

That is another consideration. But it is not germane to the cjjse I have now in hand. As I have said, this preservation of the forests is one of the points made by Quebec in favour of placing this territory within its jurisdiction.

I think that it is admitted that at the present time the province of Quebec and the province of Ontario are taking reasonable precautions for the protection of their forest -not as much as they should do, I believe, but they are advancing in this respect and constantly improving their methods. Returning to the point with which I was dealing, the effect of this annexation of territory upon representation, I must say that I sympathize with that view of the question; it is a view that must not be forgotten. But, for my part, I cannot see that any immediate, or even future, danger is threatened. It has never been contemplated, and cannot be seriously contemplated, that there will be any great influx of population into that territory. But, even should there be an influx of population, it will be time to consider the question and see what safeguards should be adopted in order to preserve the balance of representation. More than that, I intend, for my part, when the matter is referred to the government of Quebec to draw the attention of that government to the objections which have been advanced more than once on the floor of this House against the increase of the territory of Quebec on this ground. I have reason to believe that these objections will be given a fair hearing and full consideration.

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CON

Robert Laird Borden (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. R. L. BORDEN (Carleton).

' I have very little to say on this occasion. The difficult part of the question which has been presented to the House is left entirely open by the remarks of the Prime Minister this morning. I do not understand that the resolution which has been proposed is to be the basis of any Act to be passed this session; it is merely a resolution which defines the boundaries and leaves everything else absolutely open. I observe that that is the view taken of it-apparently an inspired

view-by representatives of the government press, as the following will show:

With regard to the request of Manitoba for an additional federal subsidy in lieu of the ownership of public lands in the territory to be added, as in the cases of Saskatchewan and Alberta, the resolution provides that this question should be dealt with later, on terms to be mutually agreed upon by the provincial legislature and the federal parliament. The question of the provision for separate schools in the new territory is also left over, and the contentious details in this respect will be one of the big problems of the next session of parliament. The actual extension of the boundaries is thus postponed till next year, but the resolution paves the way, in so far as it determines the actual territory to be added to each province.

I thought it worth while to place before the House this expression of opinion which I find in the Manitoba ' Free Press ' and the Toronto ' Globe ' as to the motives which have influenced the government in merely bringing down the suggestion of boundaries and leaving the terms and conditions absolutely open for negotiations between the federal and provincial governments. We were promised in the speech from the Throne that legislation would be passed this session on the subject. That legislation, apparently, is not to be passed. That is due to one of two causes, either the government has not come to a conclusion as to the terms and conditions upon which it is willing to make the extension of the boundaries of the provinces, or it has come to a conclusion which it does not think expedient now to announce to the House.

So far as the lands and forests in the northern country are concerned, the Prime Minister appears to consider that the province of Quebec, or the province of Ontario, would be better able to deal with them than the federal government. I do not understand why a principle of that kind, applied to the provinces of Ontario and Quebec, would not be equally applicable to the provinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta. .

With respect to the strip adjoining Newfoundland, there is very little information before the House to enable us to form any opinion. One would suppose that when it is necessary to have the assent of the Governor General and precise information upon going into Committee of the Whole upon a matter dealing with half a million acres of land, it would be equally necessary, and certainly quite as desirable in this case, to have laid uopn the table of the House some map so that we could intelligently comnrehend exactly the extension of the areas which is being proposed. The mere enumeration of those boundaries in the resolution of the Prime Minister gives us very little information indeed. Nevertheless, the House is asked to go into Committee of the Whole *without having any map placed upon the table and without Mr. R. L. BQRDEN.

anything more than the very general statement made by the Prime Minister as to the disposition of a territory amounting in all, I suppose, to a million square miles. It may be that this matter will be open at another session. Properly speaking, I suppose the House will be bound by the terms of the resolution which we are asked to pass to-day. If that is the intention, I desire to say, in the first place that we have not enough information before the House to enable us to consider it intelligently; and in the next place, I think it would be proper that we should have gone into Committee of the Whole for the purpose of that debate, which cannot be obtained in a discussion on such as is proposed to-day.

With respect to the Newfoundland strip, it would have been wise to consider the possible entrance of the colony of Newfoundland into this confederation, and it might have been well to consider whether some portion of the territory which is proposed to be added to the province of Quebec should not be reserved for that eventuality, and whether some part of that territory at least could not be better administered by the colony of Newfoundland as a province of this confederation than it could be administered by the province of Quebec. In saying that, of course, I would have regard simply to the convenience and efficiency of administration. If it can be better administered by the province of Quebec, then it is eminently proper that it should be added to the province of Quebec; if, on the other hand, it could be more effectively and conveniently administered by the island of Newfoundland as a province of this confederation, it would be better to have it administered in that way. The Prime Minister has given us no information on that subject, nor has he apparently taken into consideration the possibility, and indeed the hope, that the island of Newfoundland may at no very distant day become one of the provinces of this confederation, and in that way round out into one great Dominion all the British possessions in the northern part of this continent. I have nothing further to say with regard to the resolution to-day, except again to express the regret that it has not been brought down earlier, that the government was not in a position to deal with the whole matter at the present moment, and that all the questions which have been alluded to in the comments of the government press are not brought before the House for its information and for determination at this session, as was proposed in the speech from the Throne.

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CON

David Tisdale

Conservative (1867-1942)

Hon. DAVID TISDALE (Norfolk).

I wish to say just a word in expression of my own views on this resolution. I do not think there is any present necessity for the disposition of the 400,000 square miles as proposed in this resolution, especially in view of my very strong desire to see the colony of Newfoundland enter this confed-

eration. I cannot concur in the view that this Dominion is not capable, and is not prepared to incur the expense, of looking after the timber and other natural resources in that vast territory, at least until we know something more about it than what is before the House.

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July 13, 1908