July 10, 1908

LIB

Adam Zimmerman

Liberal

Mr. ZIMMERMAN.

The Act calls for stamps representing a certain quality of gold in the article, and if the stamp is not on it is prima facie evidence that the article is not gold. The principal change in this Bill is the difference between nine and ten carat gold. The former Bill prevented nine carat jewellery coming in from Great Britain. The change in this Bill is to conform with the English trade mark rather than with the American. It is a well understood fact that the English hall mark cuts down the quality of gold stamped on the article. The American Act says that while it is stamped ten carats it must contain at least nine and a half carats of gold, and that if the article is soldered it must contain not less than nine carats, Seventy-five per cent of the jewellery that came in from the United States stamped ten carat was really only nine carat. It would have been a great injury to the retail jewellery business in this country had they continued the ten carat mark for the simple reason that retailers have an immense business in those nine carat hail mark goods and they are excellent wearing articles. I have a letter from one of the largest wholesale and manufacturing jewellers in Canada who says :

We think it would be in the interest of the trade if the Bill were put through in its present shape this session.

The wholesale dealers, the manufacturers and retailers have had over twenty meetings in Toronto over this Bill and practical-

ly the Bill, as presented to-day, is their own drafting.

Topic:   GOLD AND SILVER AND PLATED WARE.
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CON
LIB

Adam Zimmerman

Liberal

Mr. ZIMMERMAN.

No, the drafting of the wholesalers, manufacturers and retailers, with one exception. I understand there was one manufacturer who took exception to the nine carat gold. He wanted to see it ten carat but he stood at one side and said that he would leave it to the government. .

On section 7-exceptions ; certain articles of silver.

Topic:   GOLD AND SILVER AND PLATED WARE.
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CON

Robert Laird Borden (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. R. L. BORDEN.

Why do you require the exenrption of articles by the Acts of the Governor in Council ?

Topic:   GOLD AND SILVER AND PLATED WARE.
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LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

I think there will have to be a more lengthy description of these articles made by the'regulations which will have to be made by experts. You could hardly do it in the Bill.

Bill reported, read the third time and passed.

Topic:   GOLD AND SILVER AND PLATED WARE.
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MANITOBA GRAIN ACT AMENDMENT.


Bill (No. 18S) to amend the Manitoba Grain Act.-Mr. Oliver-read the second time, and House went into committee thereon. On section 2,


CON

William D. Staples

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. STAPLES.

I would like an explanation of this legislation. It is one of the most important Bills of this session, affecting the interest of the farming community of the west, and I hope the committee will not rush it through without giving it the consideration to which it is entitled.

Topic:   MANITOBA GRAIN ACT AMENDMENT.
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CON

Richard Stuart Lake

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. LAKE.

I may say that certain proposed amendments to this Bill were laid before the members yesterday, and I have done my best to look into them. Two sets of amendments have been brought down and distributed among the members, the second set only yesterday. I understand that the minister has gone very thoroughly into this matter, and is pretty well posted in all the details. We want to know what the proposed amendments mean before passing the various clauses of the Bill.

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LIB

Frank Oliver (Minister of the Interior; Superintendent-General of Indian Affairs)

Liberal

Mr. OLIVER.

In regard to the two sets of proposed amendments, they have been distributed for the information of the House, so that no one would be taken by surprise. The difference between the two sets of amendments proposed, with regard to section 31 of the Bill, is a difference not in principle but only in detail. I may say that the Bill which has come down from the Senate is based on the report of the Royal Grain Commission which was appointed in 1900, and which made a very exhaustive examination of the grain trade, both in the west and Mr. ZIMMERMAN

in the east and in Great Britain. That commission embodied its views in a report which has been before the House for a considerable time. Preparatory to the framing of the Bill which would embody the propositions of the commission, a conference was held under the auspices of the Minister of Trade and Commerce. That conference was attended by representatives of the railway interest, the milling interest, the grain dealing interest, the farming interest, as well as by a number of members of this House and the chairman of the Royal Grain Commission; so that there was a fair opportunity for all sides of the question to be presented. As a result of that conference it was decided not to follow in all particulars the views of the Royal Grain Commission. Some things which they recommended were not acted upon, and some of their recommendations were varied; but in the main the Bill as it was presented to the Senate and as it has come down to us is the embodiment of the views of that commission. When the report of the Royal Grain Commission got into the hands of the public generally, especially the farming community of the west, there was of course brought to bear upon it an interest that was not fully in evidence in the conference before the Minister of Trade and Commerce. In other words, the great farming interest of the country had an opportunity to discuss pro and con the merits of the question and to give their views directly as to what they wanted; and it is in accordance largely with the views that have been expressed directly by the grain-growing interest that the amendments which have been placed before the House in sheet form have been prepared. It was thought right that any amendments that were to be suggested should be printed and placed informally in the hands of members. We thought it would save time in discussion to have them distributed in convenient form.

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CON

William D. Staples

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. STAPLES.

This question, I understand, arose in the Committee on Agriculture three years ago, when the hon. member for Qu'Appelle (Mr. Lake) moved for a committee to thoroughly investigate the grain trade of the prairie provinces. The committee granted that request, and there was a committee formed. Parties were summoned from all over the western country, as well as millers from the east, and the matter was gone into very fully, with the result that a royal commission was appointed and given authority to go all over the country and even to Great Britain to ascertain what was the best way to protect our grain until it reached the foreign market. That grain commission cost the country something over $30,000, although it was anticipated that $10, 000 would be sufficient; so that this legislation up to the present time has cost the country an enormous sum of money. The Grain Growers' Association, who represent the agricultural interest of the prairie pro-

vinces, liave been very active in trying to guard that interest. When they got the report of the Royal Grain Commission, they asked for an interview with the government here. That was granted. When the delegates from that association arrived here, they were surrounded by other parties who were apparently very much interested in the grain trade. They came here, not expecting to be confronted with the bankers and the railway magnates of the country. I understand that they have had no easy task in trying to get the legislation they desire, and I regret that the legislation which is before the House to-day is far short of what they were looking for. For that reason I think the committee should go very carefully through every clause of this Bill and see if we cannot work out a measure satisfactory to the grain growers of the west. The Grain Growers' Association are so much interested in this that since that Bill has gone through the Senate, they sent their delegates back here. I understand that delegates from Saskatchewan and Manitoba are here in the interests of the grain producers of the prairie provinces. There have been many conferences to which we on this side of the House have not been asked. We did not know what legislation was going on or what provisions were being discussed, and in so far as regards what has taken place between the committee and the farmers' delegates, we are in the dark. Therefore we are entitled to all the time necessary to find out from the minister, as well as those who were with him in the conference and who were ail western Liberals, how the matter really stands. I remember that when the delegates came down to meet the Minister of Trade and Commerce, we were not even given an invitation to go over to the meeting and hear the evidence. But knowing that the conference was taking place, we did go over, and were told we could not be admitted until the hon. member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Crawford) was consulted, and he came out and graciously allowed us to go in. I hope that the interests of the farmers will be protected by this legislation.

Topic:   MANITOBA GRAIN ACT AMENDMENT.
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LIB

James Conmee

Liberal

Mr. CONMEE.

The general Act, of which this is supposed to ibe an amendment, has certain regulations regarding the inspection of grain in the Manitoba division. It deals with other divisions, but I am more particularly interested in the Manitoba division. Under that Act and the amendment now proposed, all grain going east of Winnipeg for shipment to the terminal elevator or any point east of Winnipeg must be inspected as it leaves the car into the elevator. But that is not the practice at Winnipeg. Grain shipped to Winnipeg is not inspected as it goes into the car, but as it comes out. That grain is reinspected and a check inspection made at the terminal elevators at Port Arthur and Fort William before it enters these elevators. If it is not found up to the standard given 399

at Winnipeg, the car is detained until it can be adjusted by the chief inspector. The law further provides that the certificate given at Winnipeg is final as between the buyer and seller. At Port Arthur or Fort William there is a better opportunity of inspecting the grain as it goes into the elevators, because the whole car load is under the eye of the inspector, and according to the rule it shall not be inspected at night. There is, therefore, a better opportunity for inspection there than at Winnipeg where the grain is not inspected in the elevator,, but samples taken from the cars after it comes out of the elevator. If the grade given at Winnipeg when inspected at the general elevator is not found to be the proper grade, the car is held up until adjusted. Under the law the certificate given at Winnipeg is final between the purchaser and the seller. This is for the purpose of facilitating grain transactions. But the grain may be discarded at Port Arthur or Fort William, because it is not up to the standard grade and may be held up. If the inspector can get a surrender of the certificate given at Winnipeg, the grain can be reinspected. But if that certificate has been negotiated and gone into other hands, it may not be secured, and in that case I am unable to find out what becomes of the grain. I am told that in some such cases, everybody gets tired. The elevator man, the inspector and the railway people, if they find some other grain will stand it, will dump it in with this other grain and somebody gets a less valuable grain. If the certificate is still in the hands of the party who got it, no doubt it could be surrendered, but frequently it changes hands and in some cases they do not get the certificate surrendered. That illustrates my point. The grain that is shipped to Winnipeg they take simply from the car, but do not give it any grade. They take it into the elevators and clean it and mix it, and then grade it after it is reloaded into the cars again. That same grain is inspected at Port Arthur going into the elevators there. The grade cannot be changed. Even if the inspector at Port Arthur or Fort William finds a difference, the chief inspector is the only one who can determine whether the grade should1 be changed or not. I am not finding fault with that, but it is not as speedy a way of dealing with the thing as might possibly be worked out. The result is that under this amendment it is proposed to hold cars at Winnipeg 24 hours in order that there may be a sample mark and the grain sold there without inspection. If that grain is not sold or dealt with at Winnipeg it may go to the terminal elevator without being graded, as I understand it. If it is ordered into the Winnipeg elevators and not inspected going in, it is inspected coming out after it has been treated. I am not speaking now of scoured grain. I am

speaking of the ordinary grades. Now, that privilege which is allowed to the elevators and dealers in Manitoba is taken away from the elevators and dealers of the province of Ontario, and I do not think that is fair. I will give notice of an amendment which will at least to some extent remedy the evil. If it is satisfactory to the grain or elevator people at Winnipeg to try to make an artificial condition where nature never intended it, I am willing to let them struggle with it and I do not want to interfere with their programme. If it is proper and right to take this grain and clean it and improve it to a point or two in grade in the city of Winnipeg, it is certainly right to do it at the terminal elevators. There may be some difference of opinion as to whether my amendment should be to Bill (7 Z) of the Senate or to the Grain Inspection Bill, known as Bill (CO) of the Senate. The Bill now before us is the Bill that imposes the conditions, and I think this is the proper place for the amendment. I beg to give notice of the following :

All grain not inspected and graded at Winnipeg, shipped to any terminal elevator in the Manitoba inspection division, if inspected before entering such elevator shall at the request of the owner, and upon the surrender of any certificate of inspection previously given, be reinspected and graded according to its merits, before, or at the time of shipment from such terminal elevator.

I believe this amendment would to some extent overcome the discrepancy I have pointed out. There is a considerable quantity of grain which goes through Winnipeg and which may be held there, and which may not enter the elevators at all, and as to that class of grain I simply ask that the same privilege which is extended to the Winnipeg elevators shall be extended to the terminal elevators at the head of the lakes.

Topic:   MANITOBA GRAIN ACT AMENDMENT.
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LIB

Frank Oliver (Minister of the Interior; Superintendent-General of Indian Affairs)

Liberal

Mr. OLIVER.

The remarks of the hon. gentleman (Mr. Conmee) would apply entirely to Bill (OC) of the Senate, and not to the Bill we are now considering. There is a certain relationship between the two Bills, but the Bill now before the House has reference to the transportation of grain and the identity of the grain, whereas the other Bill is to establish grades, and to that Bill this amendment is pertinent. I do not think it is in order to accept notice of this as an amendment to the Bill (CO) of the Senate, which is not before the House, but that informality might be waived.

Topic:   MANITOBA GRAIN ACT AMENDMENT.
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LIB

James Conmee

Liberal

Mr. CONMEE.

This is the Bill that imposes a condition on grain going east of Winnipeg-why that line should be drawn has always been a mystery to me-and, therefore, it seems to me that my amendment is relevant to this Bill. However, I do not care which Bill it goes in, if I am given an assurance that Bill (CC) of the Mr. CONMEE.

Senate will be considered by the House. I was told that if a certain amendment to the Bill prevailed in the Senate the promoters intended to withdraw it. My position is that I want a fair consideration for this amendment, and if the House rejects it I will have to be content.

On section 3, (i) eastern transfer elevator.

Topic:   MANITOBA GRAIN ACT AMENDMENT.
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LIB

Frank Oliver (Minister of the Interior; Superintendent-General of Indian Affairs)

Liberal

Mr. OLIVER.

This is in line with the suggestions of the Royal Grain Commission, and is a very important section. It provides that western grain, in transit to eastern points or to the sea-board, shall be subject to the same control, the same supervision and the same inspection in the transfer elevators as it has hitherto been in the terminal elevator at Fort William. It is a preliminary provision, looking to the preservation of the identity of the grade of the grain during its whole course of transportation, or from the collecting point to its ultimate destination, either the mill or the sea-board. While every provision was made in the original Act for the preservation of the grade of grain in terminal elevators, the transfer elevators were left free, and of course there was an opening for abuses, for which the Royal Grain Commission has suggested this as a remedy.

Topic:   MANITOBA GRAIN ACT AMENDMENT.
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CON

William D. Staples

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. STAPLES.

How many extra officials will be required to do all this work ?

Topic:   MANITOBA GRAIN ACT AMENDMENT.
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LIB

Frank Oliver (Minister of the Interior; Superintendent-General of Indian Affairs)

Liberal

Mr. OLIVER.

I could form no idea how many would be required. The proposition certainly will involve the appointment of a considerable number of responsible officials, and will involve the payment of a considerable number of salaries. I do not wisli to minimize the importance of this section, it is a radical departure from the Act as it stands to-day. The Royal Grain Commission believes this provision to be necessary in the interest of the grain growers -of the west, to securing that their products shall reach the market in proper condition.

Topic:   MANITOBA GRAIN ACT AMENDMENT.
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CON

William D. Staples

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. STAPLES.

This is a very important section, and is drawn, I understand, to meet the views of the farmers of the west, and to protect the identity of their grain until it reaches the foreign market. As to whether the provision contained in this Bill is the best one for securing that result, we do not know. Tbe Bill has been up in the Senate, and lias been well considered there ; I believe it has also been before a caucus or committee of gentlemen sitting on the opposite side of the House, and it has come down to us in this form. So I suppose we shall have to hold them responsible for it.

Topic:   MANITOBA GRAIN ACT AMENDMENT.
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LIB

Frank Oliver (Minister of the Interior; Superintendent-General of Indian Affairs)

Liberal

Mr. OLIVER.

The present section comes to ns as it was framed by the wisdom of the Senate, and no one so far has suggested any amendment to it. It embodies the result of the investigations of the Royal Grain Commission, and the application of the wisdom of the Senate to its suggestions.

Topic:   MANITOBA GRAIN ACT AMENDMENT.
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CON

Richard Blain

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BLAIN.

There have been several complaints from gentlemen sitting on this side of the House, that they were not invited to the meetings and the investigations that have been going on. Perhaps the minister would give us an explanation of that.

Topic:   MANITOBA GRAIN ACT AMENDMENT.
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July 10, 1908