May 4, 1908

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Lester B.

Melli&h,

D. J. McLean,

A. E. Smith,

William Murphy,

Daniel McGregor,

Patrick Kelley,

J. D. Bell,

M. F. McDonald,

John Beck,

William Horton,

S. Bowdridge,

Hirman Hyde.

Topic:   SUPPLY-SHIPPING AT COLLIERIES.
Subtopic:   STE. ANNE DE SOREL LIGHTHOUSE.
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James H. C.@

Beck,

Topic:   SUPPLY-SHIPPING AT COLLIERIES.
Subtopic:   STE. ANNE DE SOREL LIGHTHOUSE.
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John A.

Munn,

Topic:   SUPPLY-SHIPPING AT COLLIERIES.
Subtopic:   STE. ANNE DE SOREL LIGHTHOUSE.
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George B.

Dunn,

Louis Herrin?, -

Louis Herring.

James Lanigan,

Patrick McCarthy,

Lawrence Lanigan,

Sterns & Son & Company,

H. H. Sterns.

Allen Jos. McDonald & Co., Thomas Kichman,

John McLean,

H. H. Acorn,

Matthew & McLean,

William McDonald,

D. A. McDonald,

Sterns Brothers,

Topic:   SUPPLY-SHIPPING AT COLLIERIES.
Subtopic:   STE. ANNE DE SOREL LIGHTHOUSE.
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Capt. C. E.@

Myers,

Secretary for Captains.

These are the signatures of practically all the owners and captains of sailing vessels in the province. But this matter affects not only tile province of Prince Edward Island, but also the province of New Brunswick and the province of Nova Scotia, in which these companies are incorporated. It also applies to vessels from the province of Quebec. I do not know whether any vessels from the province of Ontario coal there or not. This matter was referred to the Legislative Assembly of the province of Prince Edward Island at its last sitting, and I received a few days ago a letter from the clerk of the Legislative Assembly to the following effect:

The Legislative Assembly of Prince Edward Island,

Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island, March 27, 1908.

A. A. McLean, Esq.,

House of Commons.

Dear Sir,-Acting under instructions of the legislative assembly of this province, I beg to inclose a copy of a resolution unanimously adopted by this House, and am requested to ask that the matter referred to receive your most earnest and immediate attention.

Yours respectfully,

Topic:   SUPPLY-SHIPPING AT COLLIERIES.
Subtopic:   STE. ANNE DE SOREL LIGHTHOUSE.
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R. H. MONTGOMERY,


Clerk Legislative Assembly, Prince Edward Island. The resolution referred to in that letter reads as follows: Resolution passed unanimously by the legislative assembly, Prince Edward Island, March, 1908. Resolved, that this legislature, recognizing the difficulties and loss entailed to the owners and charterers of sailing, vessels, also to the consumers of coal in this province on account of the preference habitually given to steam tonnage as distinguished from sailing vessels, at the piers of the leading collieries in Nova Scotia, in the matter of'loading coal caiwes, respectfully request the government ot Nova. Scotia to exercise such powers as may be within its rights, to secure fair and equitable treatment for the sailing vessels at.such piers, and if those powers be inadequate to the end proposed, recommend that said government shall have recourse to the federal authorities, with a view to securing the rights and privileges in question. Further resolved, that this legislative assembly respectfully request the federal government to pass such legislation, if necessary, as will give to sailing and steam tonnage equal rights iij their, proper loading turns at the coal ports in Nova Scotia. I understand that a copy of these resolutions has been sent to the government at Ottawa, and is now in the hands of the Mr. McLEAN. Minister of Marine and Fisheries. I understand that it is a moot question whether the federal authorities have power to deal with this matter or whether the power rests with the legislature of the province of Nova Scotia. But I think this matter is one which peculiarly lies within the powers of the parliament of Canada to deal with. This is not a matter of purely local importance, because vessels from various provinces of Canada habitually load at these piers. It is true, these companies, or most of them, are chartered by the legislature of the province of Nova Scotia; but notwithstanding that fact, I think this parliament has power to regulate the manner in which vessels shall be loaded and unloaded at these piers. Under the shipping laws of the Dominion of Canada all the regulations for the unloading of vessels are subject to the parliament of Canada. If this parliament has power to regulate the unloading of vessels, I do not see why it should not equally have power to regulate the loading of vessels. It has power under the federal shipping law to say what space shall be allotted for cattle on vessels, how many bushels of grain a vessel may carry, how much draft it may draw, etc. Why, then, should it not have power to regulate the manner in which vessels from Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Quebec shall be loaded at these piers? It may be and probably will be said that these concerns are private concerns, and can make contracts to load as they please. Vessels from all parts of Canada come to these places for coal. Under the circumstances, this is a matter of federal importance which may come under the head of regulation of trade and commerce, subsection 2 of section 91 British North America Act. Why should not this parliament have the power, under that section, to regulate the manner in which vessels shall be loaded, the same as they regulate, under subsection 10, which deals with navigation and shipping, the manner in which vessels shall lie in the harbour or conduct themselves at a pier. Under these regulations, no vessel is permitted to carry any spars clear of her hull because that might interfere with other vessels coming in.


LIB

Louis-Philippe Brodeur (Minister of Marine and Fisheries)

Liberal

Mr. BRODEUR.

Does my hon. friend think that if the coal dealers were refusing to sell their coal we would have the power to interfere, or would we have the power to interfere when coal dealers deliver at their own piers?

Topic:   SUPPLY-SHIPPING AT COLLIERIES.
Subtopic:   R. H. MONTGOMERY,
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CON

Angus Alexander McLean

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. A. A. McLEAN.

I suppose every one can refuse to sell his own goods, but when he does sell them and when he advertises that he has goods for sale, the parliament of Canada may pass regulations governing the conduct of his trade.

Topic:   SUPPLY-SHIPPING AT COLLIERIES.
Subtopic:   R. H. MONTGOMERY,
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LIB

Louis-Philippe Brodeur (Minister of Marine and Fisheries)

Liberal

Mr. BRODEUR.

Under what clause of the British North America Act?

Topic:   SUPPLY-SHIPPING AT COLLIERIES.
Subtopic:   R. H. MONTGOMERY,
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CON

Angus Alexander McLean

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. A. A. McLEAN.

Under clause 2 of section 91 dealing with the regulation of trade and commerce. Take, for instance, section 92 which defines what matters come within the jurisdiction of the provincial legislature. Under that section, shop, saloon, tavern and auctioneer and other licenses, in order to the raising of revenue for provincial, local or municipal purposes come under the exclusive powers of the provincial legislature. Yet, notwithstanding that Section, it has been held by the Privy Council that this parliament had power to pass the Canada Temperance Act and to decree that that Act could come into force in any district at the instance of its people and thus take away vested rights from men previously engaged in the liquor trade. That Act of this parliament was upheld by the Privy Council in the case of Russel vs. the Queen. What did the Privy Council say in that matter ?

Topic:   SUPPLY-SHIPPING AT COLLIERIES.
Subtopic:   R. H. MONTGOMERY,
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Sir M@

Smith, in delivering the judgment of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, intimated that their Lordships- _ .

Must not be understood as intimating any dissent from the opinion of the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Canada and the other judges who held that the Act, as a general regulation of the traffic in intoxicating liquors throughout the Dominion, fell within the class of subjects, 'The regulation of Trade and Commerce ' enumerated in that section and was on that ground a valid exercise of the legislative power of the parliament of Canada.

Our Supreme Court had decided that the federal parliament had power to legislate on that matter because it came within subsection 2 of section 91 of the British North America Act, covering the regulations of trade and commerce. That was the ground upon which the Supreme Court gave its decision, and the Privy Council said that they did not dissent from that opinion. Here, therefore, we have the decision of the highest court in the land that although the provincial legislatures have exclusive power over saloon and other licenses, still this parliament can step in and pass a Temperance Act and, as was argued before the Privy Council, take away the vested rights of liquor dealers. Then the judgment of the Privy Council proceeds :

The judgment of the Privy Council proceeds upon the grounds that the subject was not falling within any of the subsections of section 92 and was therefore within the power of the Dominion parliament as a matter pertaining to the peace, order and good government of Canada.

But if this matter of the regulation of coaling vessels would not come under the head of ' the regulation of trade and commerce ' or ' navigation and shipping,' still it might come under the head of ' peace, order and good government.' Why not? Here is a conflict every day at these collieries between the company and the steamship owners and the sailing vessels, so that this government should have the power to make some kind of regulation that would do justice to the owners of the sailing vessels. The subject is, of course, a difficult one, but all these matters are difficult to deal with. Frequently in such matters we have the Supreme Court of Canada giving one opinion and the Privy Council another, but on the whole I think that our Supreme Court has passed upon them very fairly. If the government have any doubts, I would suggest that a test case be made and sent to the Supreme Court. The matter is one of great concern to a great number of people who have large sums invested in sailing vessels. It is of importance not only to these men, but to every man who consumes coal in Canada. To-day it is agitating the people in the maritime provinces. To-morrow it may become a live question in Saskatchewan or Alberta or British Columbia.

I think, therefore, that the government should take it up at once and deal with it. Let them submit the question to the Supreme Court, if they have doubts of their jurisdiction, and if not satisfied with the decision of the Supreme Court let them appeal it to the Privy Council.

Topic:   SUPPLY-SHIPPING AT COLLIERIES.
Subtopic:   R. H. MONTGOMERY,
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LIB

Edward Mortimer Macdonald

Liberal

Mr. E. M. MACDONALD.

What solution by way of legislation, provided this parliament has power, would the hon. gentleman suggest?

Topic:   SUPPLY-SHIPPING AT COLLIERIES.
Subtopic:   R. H. MONTGOMERY,
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CON

Angus Alexander McLean

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. A. A. McLEAN.

I understand from shipping men that in the coal ports of the United States there is a regulation providing that every vessel shall receive its cargo in turn.

Topic:   SUPPLY-SHIPPING AT COLLIERIES.
Subtopic:   R. H. MONTGOMERY,
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LIB

Louis-Philippe Brodeur (Minister of Marine and Fisheries)

Liberal

Mr. BRODEUR.

On private property?

Topic:   SUPPLY-SHIPPING AT COLLIERIES.
Subtopic:   R. H. MONTGOMERY,
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CON

Angus Alexander McLean

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. A. A. McLEAN.

Yes. There is one exception, and that is bunker coal for steamers which are leaving port-these steamers have the preference, and I believe they are the only vessels in American ports that have the preference.

Topic:   SUPPLY-SHIPPING AT COLLIERIES.
Subtopic:   R. H. MONTGOMERY,
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CON

Alexander Martin

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. A. MARTIN (Queens).

This is a difficulty which occasions great hardship in the maritime provinces. It was a special grievance last year. I asked a question about this in April and the minister told me that it was ' under consideration.' I hope this question is not to be kept under consideration indefinitely. I also asked for the correspondence, but the correspondence has not been brought down. Now, the session is drawing to a close, and this is a very important matter, and should be attended to. I called the attention of the government to a resolution of the Board of Trade of Charlottetown, which had been sent me. I also received a copy of a resolution from the legislature of Prince Edward Island. In view of these representations and of the very serious importance of the matter to the people of the maritime

provinces of this question, I sincerely hope the government will find some way of overcoming the difficulty. I have here letters and petitions to show the very grave nature of this grievance to shipowners and masters and to the people generally. First, let me read a letter signed by Charles Reid:

Sir,-The system of loading vessels at coal piers is as tyrannical and out of date as the feudal system. Canadian vessels are not allowed coals as a rule, while a Norwegian steamer is at the same pier, and in many cases, coal is kept from "Canadian vessels until the ' Norman ' arrives.

Schooners sometimes hare been known to wait until the Norwegian steamer has made two voyages to Montreal. Captain Fred. Peters, of Summerside, can testify, as he is one of the captains who has had this experience. [DOT]

That is, the steamer loaded, went to Montreal, came back and got a second cargo before the sailing vessel could get a pound of coal :

Why should Canadians be driven from Canadian waters ?-

Topic:   SUPPLY-SHIPPING AT COLLIERIES.
Subtopic:   R. H. MONTGOMERY,
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LIB

Edward Mortimer Macdonald

Liberal

Mr. E. M. MACDONALD.

At what colliery did that occur ?

Topic:   SUPPLY-SHIPPING AT COLLIERIES.
Subtopic:   R. H. MONTGOMERY,
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CON

Alexander Martin

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. A. MARTIN.

This is dated Brule Shore, Tatamagouclie, Colchester County, N.S., November 29, 1907.

Topic:   SUPPLY-SHIPPING AT COLLIERIES.
Subtopic:   R. H. MONTGOMERY,
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LIB

Alexander Johnston

Liberal

Mr. JOHNSTON.

What colliery ?

And here is a letter signed by fourteen captains at Port Hastings-I suppose the hon. gentleman is familiar with that place :

The following letter known as the ' captains' protest/ which might he regarded as the first gun in the campaign for the protection of Canadian shipping, like the shot ' at Lexington which was heard around the world/ was published in the Halifax ' Morning Chronicle/ Halifax ' Herald/ Lunenburg ' Daily News/ Sydney ' Post/ Sydney ' Record/ the ' Coast Guard ' (edited by M. H. Nickerson, M.P.P.). and other maritime province and Quebec journals.

To the Editor-

Sir,-As your paper has always taken a deep interest in the shipping of our country, kindlv publish this letter to show to the people of Canada how our coasting sailing vessels and owners are being ruined and our flag driven from our waters, and a foreign flag and shipping encouraged in our ports.

We, the undersigned captains of fourteen schooners have been at Port Hastings waiting for cargoes of coal. Some of us have waited for twelve da vs. and some were promised coal this week. Superintendent MiGilli-vray, of the Inverness Railway and Coal Company, was at Port Hastings Thursday, the 19th instant. We waited on him, and all the satisfaction we got from him was that we would get no coal until navigation closed up the St. Lawrence. One captain wanted to buv a barrel of coal for his vessel's use, and was told bv the superintendent that he would not get a barrel or pound of coal until the St. Lawrence was frozen up.

, Mr. A. MARTIN. Perhaps the hon. gentleman (Mr. Johnston) will hunt up some information that will suit him and will help him to speak, as he Is generally ready to do in season and out of season.

Topic:   SUPPLY-SHIPPING AT COLLIERIES.
Subtopic:   R. H. MONTGOMERY,
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May 4, 1908