May 4, 1908

LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

The plans have not yet been completed, but it is supposed it will cost about $30,000.

Topic:   SUPPLY-SHIPPING AT COLLIERIES.
Subtopic:   CUSTODY OF ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS.
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CON

George William Fowler

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOWLER.

Why don't you keep it within $20,000?

Topic:   SUPPLY-SHIPPING AT COLLIERIES.
Subtopic:   CUSTODY OF ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS.
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LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

This is the estimate of the chief architect. I will try to keep it down to $20,000 exclusive of the site, but it will be pretty difficult to do that. This is to be for customs as well.

Mr. FOW'LER. Why don't you keep it down to $20,000?

Topic:   SUPPLY-SHIPPING AT COLLIERIES.
Subtopic:   CUSTODY OF ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS.
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LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

1 don't like to set up my judgment against that of the chief architect. Welland has a population of about 4,500 and within last year it has increased by between 1,500 and 2,000. It is moving ahead very rapidly. Last year the Plymouth Cordage Company which will employ 400 hands spent $300,000 there.

Topic:   SUPPLY-SHIPPING AT COLLIERIES.
Subtopic:   CUSTODY OF ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS.
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CON

George William Fowler

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOWLER.

Do you allow the chief architect to say what shall be the cost of a public building?

Topic:   SUPPLY-SHIPPING AT COLLIERIES.
Subtopic:   CUSTODY OF ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS.
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LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

No; but I respect his judgment.

Topic:   SUPPLY-SHIPPING AT COLLIERIES.
Subtopic:   CUSTODY OF ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS.
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CON

George William Fowler

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOWLER.

The chief architect may have judgment with respect to drawing plans, but with respect to the requirements of the different towns throughout the country I would not consider the chief architect's opinion was worth a cent. It is the minister who is responsible for that.

Topic:   SUPPLY-SHIPPING AT COLLIERIES.
Subtopic:   CUSTODY OF ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS.
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LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

The chief architect gets information as to what accommodation is required for the present and for the future.

Topic:   SUPPLY-SHIPPING AT COLLIERIES.
Subtopic:   CUSTODY OF ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS.
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CON

David Henderson

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HENDERSON.

No doubt we will be told that the chief architect will take the $8,000 salary and the minister will take the chief arcnitect's salary. I was astounded to hear the minister say that he had to give attention to the chief architect as to what amount of money should be spent by the government in any particular place. Surely the minister spoke these words without consideration.

Topic:   SUPPLY-SHIPPING AT COLLIERIES.
Subtopic:   CUSTODY OF ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS.
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LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

No, that was said deliberately.

Topic:   SUPPLY-SHIPPING AT COLLIERIES.
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CON

David Henderson

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HENDERSON.

Then I regret it* very much. The minister should be responsible for the expenditure.

Topic:   SUPPLY-SHIPPING AT COLLIERIES.
Subtopic:   CUSTODY OF ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS.
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LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

So he is.

Topic:   SUPPLY-SHIPPING AT COLLIERIES.
Subtopic:   CUSTODY OF ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS.
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CON

David Henderson

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HENDERSON.

Not if he allows his chief architect to overrule him. The minister should be in a position to say to the chief architect: I want you to draw plans for a building costing so many thousand Mr. PUGSLEY.

dollars, and all the architect should have to say about it is to draw the plans. If he did that, the chief architect would have obeyed his order, and the minister would be surprised, when the building was erected, what a beautiful building he would get for that amount of money. The country wTill be surprised when they read that the minister has acceded to the officers of his department the right to say how much the expenditure of this country is to be.

Topic:   SUPPLY-SHIPPING AT COLLIERIES.
Subtopic:   CUSTODY OF ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS.
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LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

It is delightful to see the serious countenance of my hon. friend when he knows that he is only joking.

Topic:   SUPPLY-SHIPPING AT COLLIERIES.
Subtopic:   CUSTODY OF ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS.
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CON

David Henderson

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HENDERSON.

No, I am absolutely serious.'

Topic:   SUPPLY-SHIPPING AT COLLIERIES.
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LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

I think it would be absurd for me to say to the chief architect, they want a post office in Montreal and I want you to spend $50,(100 ou it, or they want a post office at Ottawa and I want you to spend $25,000 on it. What we do is this. The chief architect finds out what the requirements of a town are, considers what its present population is and whether it is a growing town or not, and is then able to judge what accommodation is required, and he makes his estimate accordingly. When it comes to my hands, I cut it down as much as possible. At the same time I want him to erect a building which will be a credit to the government and not a discredit to the town. I am quite ready to admit that I. am advised by the chief architect and the chief engineer and the deputy, for whose judgments I have great respect.

Topic:   SUPPLY-SHIPPING AT COLLIERIES.
Subtopic:   CUSTODY OF ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS.
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?

Mr LALOR.

The town of Welland I know very well ; the county of Welland adjoins my county, and I quite agree with the minister when he says that Welland is a growing and prosperous town. I do not know any town that is growing as fast. I think the expenditure of $20,000 in Welland is a necessary and very wise expenditure, very much more so than an expenditure of $40,000 in St. Mary's or $90,000 in Owen Sound.

Topic:   SUPPLY-SHIPPING AT COLLIERIES.
Subtopic:   CUSTODY OF ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS.
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CON

George William Fowler

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOWLER.

We are not objecting to an expenditure of $20,000 in Welland ; but the point was that the building was to cost $30,000 instead of $20,000. I cannot agree with the views expressed by the minister in regard to how far he should be guided by his officers. Along certain lines that is correct. As he is not a draughtsman, he must be guided by the chief architect in the drawing of the plans ; but in regard to the requirements of a town the minister ought to know a great deal more than the chief architect. But according to the statement of the minister, the chief architect is the only one in the department who assumes any" responsibility in regard to the erection of buildings. He makes inquiries as to the requirements of a town and its prospects of growth ; he makes his plans accordingly ;

and estimates the cost after he draws the plans. That seems to be a very strange way of proceeding. The country will be surprised to learn that the chief architect is the master of the situation in the Department of Public Works. He may be a man of great ability along his particular l'ne [DOT] but the exhibition we have had in the last week or two in the estimates of the Department of Public Works that have been under discussion, have convinced me at any rate that the chief architect is a man upon whose judgment it is not safe to rely.

Mr. PUGSLEY I am afraid you are hard to convince.

Topic:   SUPPLY-SHIPPING AT COLLIERIES.
Subtopic:   CUSTODY OF ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS.
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CON

George William Fowler

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOWLER.

Not at all. We have found that the chief architect has a staff of twelve architects besides himself,- and that in addition over $100,000 was spent last year for architects.

Topic:   SUPPLY-SHIPPING AT COLLIERIES.
Subtopic:   CUSTODY OF ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS.
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LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

Oh. no.

Topic:   SUPPLY-SHIPPING AT COLLIERIES.
Subtopic:   CUSTODY OF ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS.
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May 4, 1908