June 6, 1905

CON

George Eulas Foster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOSTER.

But there is no essential difference in mathematics taught in military college and mathematics taught in Queen's University or anywhere else. These schools and colleges are doing this part of the work of education and can be relied upon to do it. Then you have civil engineering, and to that the same statement applies. Then you have a professor of physics and chemistry. These branches are taught equally well in other institutions. You have a French teacher and an English teacher. For French, English, mathematics, physics, chemistry and civil engineering you have instructors and professors in the military college ; and all these branches are taught at least equally well in other institutions. I go further and say that they are taught better. You cannot put a French teacher into the military college to give what time he can to boys who enter at seventeen years of age and expect him to do much in teaching them French. He may keep up the French they have, he may even help those who are English to leam a

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE-SALARIES.
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CON

George Eulas Foster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOSTER.

little more French. But French, English, and these other branches can be more competently taught to young men in the colleges and universities and schools than they can by the casual and fragmentary work which is possible on these lines in a military college. Putting all these together, it seems to me that, with proper co-operation the military college could be the means of much more efficient work in its own line. By providing a rigid examination so that only those could be admitted who were well grounded in the branches taught in other institutions, you would have classes of young men who would devote their attention particularly to the military side of their education. If that all means that you get young men even at a riper age, it would do no harm. I think eighteen would be a better age than seventeen. The reason why many of the boys who graduate at a military college do not apply themselves to military life is that they have not the military taste. I do not know whether that taste is born in a Boy or not ; but I doubt very much that it can be educated into any large proportion of the youth of this country. When a boy has reached the age of eighteen he knows whether his bent is towards a military life or not. If he then makes the choice of entering the military college, it is fair to assume that is because he has a liking for military life, and probably, an aptitude for it; and this is the class of young men who will be the most apt, the most easily instructed and the most efficient graduates in military science. This, evidently is what the English people think. Their military colleges take boys at nineteen years of age. I imagine, though. I cannot speak by the book, that when these applicants come to the military colleges at nineteen, they must be very well grounded in the other branches.

How favourably Kingston is situated for such a work as I have indicated. The military college is alongside one of the best educational institutions we have in Ontario or in the Dominion. Co-operation would be so easy and, so would be the increasing of the limit of age and making the course, if anything, a litle shorter. That may be a matter for very careful consideration. It may be that three years is not too long for a young man to devote to work upon the military side of his education. I think there is something in the view I have tried to present regarding the educational side of the question. Now you have, I suppose, about 30 per class.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE-SALARIES.
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LIB

Frederick William Borden (Minister of Militia and Defence)

Liberal

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN.

About 32.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE-SALARIES.
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CON

George Eulas Foster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOSTER.

The professor teaches military matters to a class of not less than thirty. Would, not a larger class be better ? For instance, in teaching strategy, how to avoid your enemy, how to get on his weak side, how to deploy-can lie not do that better when he has thirty or forty than

when he has only fifteen? He gets lip nearer to army conditions. Then the professor of artillery can just as well instruct forty pupils as ten, and do it with a great deal more vim, as he has more inspiration. The same way with military surveying. He takes his class out, I suppose, and teaches them military surveying. It seems to me therefore that your professorial staff ought to take care of an average class of about thirty. Each class, I suppose, would average about that.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE-SALARIES.
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LIB

Frederick William Borden (Minister of Militia and Defence)

Liberal

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN.

About thirty-two or thirty-three. I would like to add a word. I do not differ seriously from the view of my hon. friend, except that, as I have already said, I think there was something in Mr. Mackenzie's idea that it was desirable to educate a class of young men, not only fitting them for the ordinary duties of life, but carrying along with that a special and technical military education. My hon. friend has not referred to that point which I made; but he agrees with me that at the time when Mr. Mackenzie spoke there was something in that idea, and we have consequently a large number of men in this country engaged in civil pursuits whose names are in the militia list, and who took that course, and would toe very valuable men in the event of stress. My hon. friend argues that we should go still further in the direction in which I have taken one step, by reducing the length of the term one year. He also proposes-I do not understand that he wishes it to be done at once, but that eventually we may take young men at a greater age, say eighteen or nineteen, with higher acquirements and higher qualifications, from the high schools and universities of the country, and give them a military education alone. I am inclined to agree very much with that view.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE-SALARIES.
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CON

George Eulas Foster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOSTER.

Founded upon the broader elements.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE-SALARIES.
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LIB

Frederick William Borden (Minister of Militia and Defence)

Liberal

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN.

Exactly. No doubt the present college will be sufficient for many years to come to accommodate all the students we will have. But for a time at least, we must go on as we are now. When we reach the point to which my hon. friend refers, it will be necessary to do as is done to-day in the military college in England, and as is done at West Point, and apply a test. When a young man enters the West Point Academy he binds himself, enters into a solemn obligation, to join the army of the United States and serve therein for twelve years.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE-SALARIES.
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CON

George Eulas Foster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOSTER.

Yes, because they have an army.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE-SALARIES.
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LIB

Frederick William Borden (Minister of Militia and Defence)

Liberal

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE-SALARIES.
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CON

George Eulas Foster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOSTER.

The minister can do that now if he pleases. I never could see any reason why you should put a limit in the statute and bind yourself to so much or to so little, because you have to get it voted by parliament.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE-SALARIES.
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LIB

Frederick William Borden (Minister of Militia and Defence)

Liberal

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN.

That was my idea, but some of my hon. friends opposite wanted to fix a limit.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE-SALARIES.
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CON

David Tisdale

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. TISDALE.

How many graduates are now in the imperial army ?

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE-SALARIES.
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LIB

Frederick William Borden (Minister of Militia and Defence)

Liberal

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN.

I think over 100.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE-SALARIES.
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CON

David Tisdale

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. TISDALE.

It is only just to the college that that fact should be stated; because when the college was started one of the objects was to educate some of our young men, no(t for service in Canada solely, but also to serve in the imperial army and thus to keep up a connection between the mother country and Canada. I understand there have always been more applications by young men leaving the college than the commissions offered. I notice in Colonel Reade's report that he recommends that every young man, immediately on graduating, should either obtain a commission in tlie imperial army, or in our permanent militia, or should serve three years in the volunteers. I think something of that sort would be well worthy of consideration. especially as the college has now reached tlie point when you have more applications than you can receive. I think the time has now come when you can gradually begin to impose conditions. My hon. friend from North Toronto has suggested several improvements. You would have to raise the standard of matriculation if you carried out the suggestions he has so ably expressed, and in a good many of which I concur. We want to teach in that college as few things as possible that are not purely military, we want to make good military officers. Mathematics uo doubt

are indispensable, to a certain extent, so far as they have a direct application to some of the arms of the force. We know that every year the evolution of arms makes it more important that military officers should have a knowledge of ail the branches which go to form a technical education. But, beyond that the only way that I can see to increase the efficiency and economy of the department is by gradually eliminating all the education that is not directly or indirectly military from the college. There is a good deal to be said in favour of the argument of establishing a maximum and that would regulate to a large extent the number of professors. I think that a request for $4,000 more is not an unreasonable one and probably in another year it might be well to take up and consider at more length and with more knowledge the requirements of the college on these lines.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE-SALARIES.
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CON

John Waterhouse Daniel

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DANIEL.

Before the motion is carried, I would like to ask the hon. minister to explain a little more definitely in regard to the mode of admissions to the Royal Military College. As I understand it, a few years ago a certain number was apportioned to the different provinces of Canada, iso many to Ontario, Quebec and the maritime provinces. ,1 understood the hon. minister to state definitely that admissions were entirely by competition and the marks obtained by examination, so that now there are no numbers apportioned to different localities in Canada. Otherwise, I may say that II was very much pleased with the statement of the minister in regard to the Royal Military College. I have always takeu a very great interest in that institution. I do think that our permanent forces do not receive the benefit from that college which they ought to receive, and I was rather under the impression that the government did not encourage these young men to go into the permanent militia, as the fact of their being graduates of the Royal Military College did not give them any advantage over any other young man whom the government of the day might wish to appoint. I think that is so.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE-SALARIES.
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LIB

Frederick William Borden (Minister of Militia and Defence)

Liberal

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN.

Yes, it does give them an advantage.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE-SALARIES.
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CON

John Waterhouse Daniel

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DANIEL.

I take it, however, from the statement of the hon. minister that so far from that being the case, it was rather difficult to get these young men to take positions in the permanent militia, because the permanent militia did not offer a very prosperous career to a young man. I am very glad indeed that the conditions have changed, so that these young men now, inasmuch as they feel inclined to embrace the military profession, do look forward to commencing that military career in our own permanent militia force.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE-SALARIES.
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LIB

Frederick William Borden (Minister of Militia and Defence)

Liberal

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN.

In reply to ray hon. friend first in reference to the apiMr. TISDALE. _

portioning of vacancies in the college among the different provinces, I would say that I do not think that was ever the rule or the practice, but I am inclined to the view that it might be a wise thing to do. I happened to be at West Point the other day, and, among other things, I learnt there that the disposition of cadetships was territorial, or that it was among the different states-a certain number to each state, of course subject to competition and nomination. Certain prominent people, senators or the members of the House of Representatives have the right to nominate candidates for admission to West Point, but if the nominees do not pass the required examination then other nominees are put forward. I think there is something to be said in favour of territorial distribution. In that way you have in the college representatives from every part of the country, and you are leavening the whole country with whatever advantage may come from those highly trained and highly educated gentlemen. At the present time that is not the law. I think it is worth while considering, subject, of course, to the provision that a competitive examination must be passed as far as the particular district is concerned. In reference to the other inquiry which my hon. friend made, I said that the permanent force of the past did not seem to offer a tempting career, and hence young gentlemen from the Royal Military College did not apply for admission to it. There was no pension law. A man might go on serving his country until he became too old or reached the age limit, and he wouid then he allowed to go out on the street without any provision being made for him. That has been changed. We now have a pension, law. The Royal Military College graduate has this advantage over any one else that he can receive a commission at once without any further examination, whereas an applicant from the ordinary walks of life or a college must pass a technical military examination before he can receive a commission.

Resolution reported, read the first and second time, and agreed to.

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN moved for leave to introduce Bill (No. 169) to amend the Act respecting the Royal Military College.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE-SALARIES.
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Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.


MILITIA ACT AMENDMENT-PERMANENT FORCE.

June 6, 1905