June 6, 1905

LIB

Frederick William Borden (Minister of Militia and Defence)

Liberal

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN.

The hon. gentleman (Mr. Foster) will understand that I did not spend any money that was not voted by parliament.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE-SALARIES.
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CON

George Eulas Foster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOSTER.

But I understand the minister to say that there is a restriction in the law by which he is not allowed to spend more than $26,000 ?

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE-SALARIES.
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LIB

Frederick William Borden (Minister of Militia and Defence)

Liberal

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN.

But each year the Supply Bill has voted more. Of course it was not consistent with the Act.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE-SALARIES.
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CON

George Eulas Foster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOSTER.

Then, what the minister asks parliament to do in voting supply was to repeal that clause of the Act.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE-SALARIES.
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LIB

Frederick William Borden (Minister of Militia and Defence)

Liberal

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN.

Practically.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE-SALARIES.
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CON

George Eulas Foster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOSTER.

I do not suppose that he ever told parliament that that was what lie was doing, for I think that if he had dona so, parliament would have told him that before asking for more than was allowed by law, he should seek the repeal of the law (fixing the limit. But the maiu point is this : The minister says he wants more

money. What does he intend to do with it ? What has lie been doing up to the present time ? How far does he propose to change the *n Hilary college either as to the- scope of its work or the efficiency of its work ? If he intends to- change the scope of the work and come into competition with universities and colleges, I do not think that that is a thing we ought* to do. If for the military side of the work it is necessary to have more assistance, that is a fair matter for us to consider. I can readily understand that the limit was put there in the first place because there was a good deal of opposition to the government running a collegiate institution and a good deal of suspicion that it would involve too great expense. Consequently, no doubt, in the discussion it was generally agreed upon that a work such as was outlined at that time could he done with a certain sum of money, and that was fixed as the limit. I would like to know from the minister how many professors lie has in the college, how many branches he is teaching and what lie proposes to do in the way of extension requiring more money. We ought to know this before we are asked to amend the law so as to allow larger sums to be devoted to these purposes. I think there is a limit beyond which we are not justified in going. We have other universities in different cities-.one of them in Kingston itself. These are able to cope with all the work of civil education-if that is a proper name for it. We have colleges that are well equipped ; and it is not worth while for us to set up rival institutions. The object young men have in going to the military school is to finish tlieir education with respect to military matters.

How far is it advisable for them to lay tile foundation of their education in the other colleges -and universities that we have, and then, when they come to the West Point of Canada, if it is that, or meant to be that, have their attention devoted chiefly to the training and education necessary in a technical way towards making them useful for the military purposes of this Dominion ? I understand it is not the purpose in view7, or meant to be the purpose, to graduate young men from that institution and to send them out into the various avocations and civil businesses of life. Yet that is what we have been doing. Probably nine-tenths of those who have been put through that institution have gone out and have not devoted their energies to the military line of work, but to some purpose or profession that young men are fitted for by the col-

leges and universities of the country. I think it is time for us to discuss thoroughly and may be to revise our action in this respect. Is it worth while keeping up a military college at large expense to the government simply to train young men for the civil 'businesses of the country ? If it is not wise, and I think we ail agree to that, is it wise to educate only those we can use for our military purposes, and cannot that be done for a less amount of money than that which we have to supply for the teaching and professorial work for a general grounding in the other branches of study which are pursued equally well, and may be better, at the universities and colleges ? Would it not be wiser for our young men to pursue a certain course of preparation in our colleges and schools that provide the necessary qualification for entrance into the military school, and then finish their military education in that institution? Should not that be the real purpose of the military college ? As it is now, I imagine you have professors there who take boys from the common school and teach them mensuration, trigonometry and the mathematics-I do not know whether you teach classics or not- and a great many things that the colleges, schools and universities are specially instituted and established -to teach. The whole -point I am making is : Are we duplicating unnecessarily the work of -the teaching institutions of the country ?

Sir WILFRID LAURIER, I do not see how you can separate the -technical education, which is a proper part of a military education, from the other branches of knowledge which are indispensable to the soldier. These young men are taken at a c-ertain age, and if they are to receive their -training as soldiers it is necessary that they shah receive. not only a technical education, but that they shall receive also a general education to fit them to take their places in the ranks. I do not think it would be well to teach all the subjects of the -higher classes which are taught .-by the universities, such as classics -and so on, but when we take young men of thirteen or fourteen years of age it is indispensable that they should be taught such subjects as mathematics, geometry, geography, engineering and so on. That is indispensable, it seems to me, and I do not see how you can teach one without teaching the other. In addition to that, they must be taught horsemanship and artillery. They are taught those things which essentially -belong to the education of a soldier, but they cannot have a complete education unless they also have the other branches of knowledge to which I have referred. My hon. friend (Mr. Foster) -asks : Are we going to train young men for the purpose of being soldiers, and after ail train them for civil life ? In my judgment, that is unavoidable. Luckily we shall not require ail the young men that are turned out of the military Mr. FOSTER

college for military purposes. I say luckily, because (I hope the day is far distant when we shall have war. I hope we shall never have war, hut we have our college-kmr West Point as my hon. friend calls it-because of the possibility of having war, and the experience of other nations has proved that in the emergency of war if you have in the walks of civil life any number of men who have received a military education you have the best preparation that you can have for the defence of the country. My hon. friend has only to be reminded that at the outset of the civil war the generals who became most efficient in the American army were Generals Grant, Sherman and McLellan, who had received a military education, but who had left the army and gone into the civil walks of life. General Mc-Lella-n was the manager of a railway, if I remember right; General Sherman, if I remember well, was a teacher in a college, and General Grant had gone into different occupations, but when the country was divided they came hack to the army ; and of all the men who went into the war, and there -wais no want of enthusiasm, those who turned out to be at once successful were the men who had had a military training. Let us say that every year we turn out a number of young men who have received a military education. It is an excellent training for civil life. It gives them an idea of discipline and an idea of many subjects that are of the utmost importance to them. Let the contingency of the country being plunged -into war -arise, and -these young men will leave their occupations, come back into the ranks and form the nucleus of the defence of the country. So I think my hon. friend will agree with me that the training -that is given in the military college is quite proper and necessary. It is not confined to -the technical branches of the profession, hut it also embraces all the subjects of knowledge which are as useful and necessary to the soldier as to any other man in any walk of civil life.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE-SALARIES.
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CON

George Eulas Foster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOSTER.

My right hon. friend has scarcely given me credit for the idea I was trying to bring forward. He says it is necessary that you should have your military men well trained and well conditioned in other branches of knowledge. There is no difference between himself and myself there. The only difference that there is between us in that respect would he this : Is it necessary for us to do all that in the military college, or is it not possible for us to take advantage of -the other institutions of learning in which young men are grounded, and then that they should enter the military college to round off their technical and military education ? You might as well say that you must teach everything at the military college from A, B, G up. You have right alongside that college in Kingston a well equipped university-Queen's. There

are ruen in that institution who teach the arts and sciences, and the practical sciences as well. Is there no way by which there can be a co-operation between the institutions that already exist and your military college, so that you need not throw away or duplicate the work of these institutions ? Is that not possible ? The medical man is trained for his profession, but the medical colleges do not teach all the other branches of a liberal education. These are taught elsewhere, and in connection with his training and his profession, the medical training that is given in the medical college is exclusively in the line of medical knowledge. Of course, a doctor would be a very poor outfit unless he were as well as possible instructed in the elements of a liberal education, tout the medical college does not propose to do that, and does not do it. It coniines itself, through its experts in special courses, to the making of a doctor out of certain material, and the better the material the better the doctor.

What I am arguing for is this : is it not possible for this military institution to avail itself of the large and generous training afforded in the other institutions of learning, and for it to devote its attention specially to the making of military men. No one doubts that if you have men who have a knowledge of military matters and you do not want to keep them at mimic warfare all the time, it is a great deal better they should be engaged in other avocations of life, while of course they are a great deal better fitted if the occasion should arise, to take their share in the enginery of war. But the very same thing could be accomplished by utilizing the training institutions we have and with which we do not wish to compete, and let the military training establishment be specially for military purposes. The objection may be urged, that those whom you wisli to train in the technique of war, you must bring under military discipline when they are young. Other things being equal, I suppose it would be better that you should apply the methods of military discipline from a very early age, hut there are disadvantages connected with that. Too much military discipline contracts life in grooves which are not quite advantageous in the general every day rough and tumble of life. While you may sacrifice something of machine like precision because you have not the hoys in your hands from twelve to fifteen years of age, yet probably the men as a whole would gain by not being so long under that strict form of discipline. I would like to know what is being done in the military college now ; how much of the work that might be done by other educational institutions, are we duplicating, and is it impossible for ns to co-operate with and take advantage of the work done by these other colleges so that in the military college we might devote our efforts chiefly to military training. I do not imagine we are aiming at raising up a

phalanx of great generals ; what we do want to get is a certain number of trained young men who will make efficient officers for the militia of the country, and if war ever comes, who will be the more competent to serve their own country because of their military training. We do not want to subordinate the whole of the life of these young men to military work, but we do want to form material which may be utilized if ever the opportunity should arise for actual war, and which can be availed of as directors of that less efficient military education which wo give to our militia through the annual drill. It is well worth while considering whether we may not easily go to too great expense in trying to duplicate what other institutions would do for us equally well, and, not in the end to the disadvantage of the men who are turned out from the military college.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE-SALARIES.
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LIB

Frederick William Borden (Minister of Militia and Defence)

Liberal

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN.

I appreciate the position which my boil, friend (Mr. Foster) takes. I do not understand that he is against the military college

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
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CON

George Eulas Foster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOSTER.

Oh, no.

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LIB

Frederick William Borden (Minister of Militia and Defence)

Liberal

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN.

But, my hon. friend seems to think that we could spend this money better by conducting a college which would take young men from other colleges and educate them specially in military subjects after they had acquired a certain portion of their general education. I believe there is a great deal of force in that contention, and I think the time will come when we should act from that point of view, but I do not think it has come yet. If my hon. friend has read the debate which took place when the military college was founded-I happened to be in the House at the time and heard the discussion-lie will find that Mr. Alexander Mackenzie who took a very active interest in the matter, pointed out that it was desirable to found a college of this kind, not with the expectation that the graduates would take up to any very great extent military careers, but to secure by a composite military and general education a class of young men who, although they might follow civil pursuits, would he of great use to the country in the event of war. For that purpose every graduate of the military college, whether he enters the active militia or the permanent force, or not, is on the list and liable to be called on as an officer of the King. It was thought, and I think the idea was sound, that the military training and the technical knowledge which the Royal Military College graduate acquired, might prove-and it has proved-of very great advantage to the country. During the last nine years we have taken one step in the direction the hon. gentleman (Mr. Foster) suggests. Originally the course was four years and the age of matriculation fifteen years ; we have reduced the course to three years and we have raised the age of matriculation from fifteen to seventeen

years, so that thus far we have met the views of the hon. gentleman. I feel we have gone far enough for the present, though, I think later on we may take an additional step. The length of the course in the military colleges in England is two years, and those entering are expected to have a good general education.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE-SALARIES.
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CON

George Eulas Foster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOSTER.

At what age do they enter?

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
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LIB

Frederick William Borden (Minister of Militia and Defence)

Liberal

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN.

It is either eighteen or nineteen years, I am not positive. Some day no doubt we will come to that position. As to interference with the other universities, or as to the allegation that this government is subsidizing a college in opposition to other universities, I do not think there is much in that, and so far as I know the other universities are not in any way jealous of the Royal Military College. They are glad to co-operate with the military college in every way. As a matter of fact, many of the graduates of the military college, after graduating take special courses in engineering and other branches in the great universities of the country. The training which the young men receive at that college is of a special character ; it is calculated to improve them in every way, physically, morally and mentally ; it is invaluable for men who are to follow a military career, but is I believe enormously valuable for men, no matter what may be their lot in life afterwards. I think we can scarcely overestimate the importance of that course. I think we do not sufficiently value the advantage which that college has been to Canada during the twenty-five or thirty years of its existence. As to the future of the college, my hon. friend has asked me very properly what is being taught at the college at the present time. I have here the curriculum, or list of subjects taught.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE-SALARIES.
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CON

David Tisdale

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. TISDALE.

Is there a matriculation examination?

'Sir FREDERICK BORDEN. Yes, a very severe matriculation examination-indeed, more severe than the matriculation examination in most of the universities, including an examination, I may say, in classics. In the first class is taught : military engineering, reeonnaisanee, science (including physics and chemistry), civil surveying, civil ' engineering, infantry drill, artillery drill, equitation, gymnastics and fencing, rifle practice, revolver practice. In the second class: mathematics and mechanics, descriptive geometry military engineering, artillery (theory and construction) of tactics, military administration, military law, military topography, civil surveying, French, infantry drill, artillery drill, signalling, gymnastics, rifle practice, revolver practice, workshops. In the third class: mathematics and mechanics, geometrical drawing, military engineering, artillery, military topography, English, French, infantrv drill, ar- I tillery drill, gymnastics, swimming, rifle Sir F. W. BORDEN.

practice, revolver practice, workshops. Many subjects, of course, are begun in the first year and continued during the second and third years. With regard to the advantage of this college to Canada, I regret to say that in the jjast we have not been able to secure many of the graduates for our own permanent force.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE-SALARIES.
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CON

George Eulas Foster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOSTER.

How many have been graduated up to date?

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
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LIB

Frederick William Borden (Minister of Militia and Defence)

Liberal

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN.

About 400. Unfortunately, owing to the fact that our permanent force did not otter very many temptations to young men who wished to follow a military career, we have not had the advantage of having many of the young gentlemen join that force. But some of them have done so, and a few have reached senior positions; and they are most useful officers in the several departments in which they are serving.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
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CON

George Eulas Foster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOSTER.

How many are now actively engaged in that work in Canada ?

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE-SALARIES.
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LIB

Frederick William Borden (Minister of Militia and Defence)

Liberal

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN.

At present I think there are in the permanent militia force about twenty or twenty-two ; hut after the closing of the present term of the college on the 1st of ,Tuly there will he about forty, owing to the better prospects now afforded of a career in that force, and owing to the fact that a few years ago we carried through this House a pension Bill for the militia, which is now law. Some of those in the second year are likely to be offered positions. So that altogether the record is not too discouraging, and it augurs well, I think, for the future.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE-SALARIES.
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CON

George Eulas Foster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOSTER.

What was the amount expended last year?

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE-SALARIES.
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LIB

Frederick William Borden (Minister of Militia and Defence)

Liberal

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN.

The expenditure is not so large as it seems, because we are recouped for a very large part of it. The young gentlemen pay so much a year, which goes into the public treasury.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE-SALARIES.
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CON

Uriah Wilson

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. URIAH WILSON.

What is the fee?

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-INTERIM SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE-SALARIES.
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June 6, 1905