May 12, 1905

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Mr. I@

BOItDEN. I have just looked over the Northwest Territories Act as amended for the purpose of seeing just how this provision would work out. It may be. as the Minister of Justice says, that it will work out all right. I am not prepared to say at the moment that it will not. It will of course require very careful consideration of tiie various sections of the Northwest Territories Act, and I have no doubt the Minister of Justice has given them the most careful consideration. I observe that section 5 of the Northwest Territories Act provides that the Governor in Council may from time

to time appoint an administrator to execute the objects and functions of the Lieutenant Governor during his absence, illness, or other inability. That would not be inconsistent. I suppose, with anything contained in this Bill ; but is it the intention that this parliament or the legislature of the province should make provision for such a case ? I am not mentioning this because it is of very great importance, but only as an illustration of what might be brought as an unexpected result.

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LIB

Charles Fitzpatrick (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. FITZPATRICK.

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LIB

Charles Fitzpatrick (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. FITZPATRICK.

I would think that provision would be continued ; at the same time, I would like to consider that further. But that is simply illustrative of the general position as to what provisions of Dominion legislation will be continued and what legislation will remain subject to our control. Possibly we may be continuing Dominion legislation which may be very embarrassing to the provincial authorities, and which can only be repealed by ourselves. I did not draft this clause, and I am somewhat embarrassed by the form of the language in the first line. It was drawn by Mr. Newcombe, who is much more familiar with this kind of work than I can presume to be. The explanation I have received is that the intention is to repeal the Northwest Territories Act, but at the same time to continue those provisions of that Act which would form the body' of the law-in ifact, the common law of the Territories, and of course only those provisions which are not inconsistent with the provisions of the Act which we are now passing.

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CON

Robert Laird Borden (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. R. L. BORDEN.

It may be that more careful consideration of that section, which does not deal with a matter of very great importance, would show that it would work out all right. Of course, it may create some inconvenience, but it would hardly justify us in going to the imperial parliament. We must remember, when we are establishing provinces under this Act, that we cannot amend it afterwards. That is a very good reason why we should examine all these provisions with much care. As I understand it, the Minister of Justice does not desire to press this clause this afternoon.

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LIB

Charles Fitzpatrick (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. FITZPATRICK.

What I would like to see is how far we have covered the points of difficulty that might arise. It is not like the case of Manitoba where there was no provincial power before, nor is it like the case of a province in the full exercise of its full provincial authority. It is practically dealing with a territory which has been exercising almost all the powers of a province but powers which are under delegation from us. 'So it is a ease of exceeding difficulty, and I want to see that in this important constitutional Act we are making provision for everything that can possibly arise.

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CON

Samuel Barker

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BARKER.

I would like the minister to explain this. It has been understood that clause It! is to disappear from this Bill and what we may call the hon. member for Brandon's clauses are to take its place. But under section 15 as it is now worded will not section 1(3 come back as section 11 of the Act of 1875 and be beyond the control of the provinces 1

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LIB

Charles Fitzpatrick (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. FITZPATRICK.

Would not section 15 of the Act of 1875 be inconsistent with section 16 as it is proposed to amend it and 1 if it is inconsistent with that section as it

593:

is proposed to amend it then of course it disappears ?

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CON

Samuel Barker

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BARKER.

I do not understand that section 16 is to remain in the Bill. Section 16. as I understood, is to disappear and ordinances 29 and 30 are to take its place. As I understand clause 15 as now proposed, it could bring in by reference, clause 11 of the Act of 1875 which is in effect the same as clause 16 of the Bill, and would remain there unalterable even by the Dominion parliament, in other words a fixture as regards the provinces.

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LIB

Charles Fitzpatrick (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. FITZPATRICK.

Of course I do not consider that is at all possible, but if there is any doubt about it the ctouiblt ought to be removed and it can be removed very easily by adding a few words to the section. I do not think it possible because if clause 16 disappears another section will be substituted in lieu of it and that clause must be either in conformity with clause 11 or must differ from it, and if it differs it would be inconsistent with clause 11 and as a result clause 11 would be repealed.

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CON

Thomas Simpson Sproule

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SPROULE.

Has this federal authority power in making these enactments ? The provisions here are exactly on the same principle that we adopted when we reorganized the medical profession in Ontario ; those who were engaged ii. the practice of the profession had to be provided for, and this was done by giving them perpetual authority to exercise the rights they then enjoyed and then allow all future graduates to come under whatever regulations were made by the new society.

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LIB

Charles Fitzpatrick (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. FITZPATRICK.

My hon. friend

would continue the members of these societies in the possession of all the rights they now have with respect to both of these provinces ?

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CON
LIB

Charles Fitzpatrick (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. FITZPATRICK.

At present they have a right to practice extending over the whole Territories.

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CON

Thomas Simpson Sproule

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SPROULE.

That is what I say. They have that right which was originally granted.

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CON

John Barr

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BARR.

It seems to me that so far as the medical profession is concerned I can see some danger in this Act. Suppose dentists or medical men were living on the border near the dividing line of those two provinces. They continue subject to the Order in Council, but one province might strike them off the list and they would then have the power only to practice in the provinces in which they live. It seems to me that there is very much in what the hon. member for East Grey (Mr. Sproule) has stated that they, having enjoyed those privileges for a number of years in the past, having been granted their licenses in the past, certainly should be allowed to hold these licenses during their life time. Restrictions might be imposed

which would prevent them practising in more than one province and I think this is a very important point. Therefore I think it would be perfectly safe to grant such privileges as we have done say in Ontario, continuing those who enjoyed rights in the eniovment of those rights* In this case it would be subject to the Governor in Council and it does seem to me that there might be a great hardship.

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LIB

Charles Fitzpatrick (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. FITZPATRICK.

The organization of these associations, as my hon. friend is aware, is a matter of provincial concern. In all the provinces these associations are created by provincial legislation. The intention here is to allow the associations that are in existence to continue in existence not only in the one province where the man belonging to the associations happens to live but in both provinces with the understanding that when the provinces have provided the necessary legislation for these associations, then, m so far as they have power in the two provinces they will be dissolved by the Governor General in Council leaving it a matter to be arranged by the provinces. I ending legislation by the provinces they continue on in the possession of all the rights they now have, these rights including the privilege of practising within the whole of the Territories including both provinces, but when the province in the exercise of its provincial powers decides to organize these associations within the limits of that province then these rights will be dissolved by the Governor in Council.

Mr. BARR, Suppose the case of a man living in one province who had been practising over the border before and suppose that the other province should make laws compelling him to pass an examination, &c.. which they might do without recognizing the old standing, then it does seem to me there might be great hardship.

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LIB

Charles Fitzpatrick (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. FITZPATRICK.

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CON

John Barr

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BARR.

The minister must see the difficulty ; a young man, say in Quebec wanting to practice in Ontario goes up and passes the Ontario examination, but an aged man who has been practising thirty or forty years would find it practically impossible if it be cut out to go up there and qualify.

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LIB

Charles Fitzpatrick (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. FITZPATRICK.

I understand and appreciate the situation, but that is a matter that it seems to me must be dealt with by the provincial authority that has power over

these associations. And I have no doubt * that in exercising their own judgment, the provincial authorities will bear these difficulties in mind, for they are very real difficulties. A man, for instance, happens to be living in a certain locality near what will be the border line of the two provinces and has created for himself a practice which extends into the two provinces. Cases of that kind should be taken into account when the provinces underake to form these organizations. But I think that all we can do is to continue these gentlemen in the possession of their rights until the provinces deal with them.

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CON

May 12, 1905