May 12, 1905

LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

Hear, hear.

[DOT] bENXOX. Every day the live stock industry is assuming larger proportions in Canada and it is very desirable that it should be so. I know the minister will appreciate the importance of having this Bill framed in a way that it will be definite'to all intents and purposes. So far as the suggestion of providing for the issue of a certificate is concerned I do not know that any objection would be raised by the House to commit itself to a provision of the kind now proposed, as the minister is amending that section 5 at nil events. lean see soine difficulty m amending the sections after delay and it might bt desirable to amend the section now. It would make the Act clearer to parties taking it up and reading it. I would particularly impress upon the hon. minister the desirability of considering carefully at a future time what I bare suggested, or something in tbe line of what I have suggested. in regard to section 13. I do not think, that, on further consideration, the hou. minister will find any great difficulty in amending section 13 in the way I have suggested as regards a penalty. The certificate issued is to a certain extent a statutory title. It is what makes the title to the animal of value, at all events. It is the pedigree and it is very much in the same line as an abstract of title issued from a land registry office. Upon tlie faith and correctness of it a person who is about to invest his money acts, and so, when we are dealing not merely with the government: but with private corporations or associations who receive fees and profess to be protecting the public, it is desirable that there should be some provision, either by penalty or by damages, that if they issue a certificate which misrepresents the actual conditions they shall be accountable for tlie damages which result. If, in a registry office, a mistake is made in issuing a certificate the party is entitled to the damages lie sustains, and equally in this case there should be some provision for damages. Then, as to tbe other point that tbe lion, minister did not touch upon-and I can understand very well that he may not want to deal with it now- that is as to the provision that certificates shall in some sense, up to a certain point, be evidence of tbe facts recited in them, 1 think that is important too having regard to the extent of (importance of the matters to be dealt with. This may be a matter for future consideration.

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CON

John Waterhouse Daniel

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DANIEL.

I would like to ask the hon. minister if it is the intention to keep any record at the headquarters of bis department here of these certificates which be expects to guarantee by bis own band or by some authorized officer. As I understand tbe government intend to guarantee certificates which are sent to it for such guarantee on the initiative of these various associations. It would appear to me that it would be better, if the government intends to give that guarantee, to have a record of

all the certificates so stamped by the government and in that way there will be a possibility of verifying anything of the land which might be brought up or in regard to which some doubt might arise as to the efficacy or genuineness of the certificate.

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LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

Certainly the department will keep a record of all the certificates they stamp.

Bill reported, read the third time and passed.

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PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT IN THE NORTHWEST.


and ministerial thereof, and the jurisdiction, powers and authority belonging or incident to the said court. 3. All societies or associations incorporated by or under the authority of the legislature of the Northwest Territories existing at the time of the coming into force of this Act which include within their objects the regulation of the practice of or the right to practice any profession or trade in the Northwest Territories, such as the legal or the medical profession, dentistry, pharmaceutical chemistry and the like shall continue, suo-ject. however, to be dissolved and abolished by order of the Governor in Council, and each of such societies shall have power to arrange for and effect the payment of its debts and liabilities and the division, disposition or transfer of House again in committee on Bill (No. 69) to establish aud provide for the government of tlie province of Alberta.-Sir Wilfrid Laurier. On section 15, Until otherwise provided by competent authority, and subject to the provisions of this Act, all laws and ordinances not inconsistent with this Act in force in the territory comprised in the said province on the thirtieth day of June, one thousand nine hundred and five, and all courts of civil and criminal jurisdiction, and all commissions, powers and authorities aud all officers, judicial, administrative and ministerial existing or holding office at that time shall continue therein as if such territory had not been established as a province. Hon, CHAS. FITZPATRICK (Minister of Justice) moved that tlie following be substituted for section 15 . 15. Except as otherwise provided by this Act all laws (Including the provisions of the North. west Territories Act and the amendments thereto, notwithstanding the repeal thereof by this Act), and all orders and regulations made thereunder, and all courts of civil and criminal jurisdiction, and all commissions, powers, authorities and functions and all officers and functionaries judicial, administrative and ministerial, existing immediately before the coming into force of this Act in the territory hereby established as the province of Alberta, shall continue in the said province as if this Act and the Saskatchewan Act had not been passed ; subject, nevertheless, except with respect to such as are enacted by or existing under Acts of the parliament of Great Britain, or of the parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, to be repealed, abolished or altered by the parliament of Canada, or by the legislature of the said province, according to the authority of the parliament, or of the said legislature under this Act, Provided that all powers, authorities and functions which under any law, order or regulation, were before the coming into force of this Act vested in or exercisable by any public officer or functionary of the Northwest Territories shall be vested In and exercisable in and for the said ^ province by like public officers and functionaries of the said province when appointed by competent authority. . „ ,, 2. The legislature of the province may, for all purposes affecting or extending to the said province, abolish the Supreme Court of the Northwest Territories, and the offices both judicial its property. . . . _ 4. Every joint-stock company incorporated by or under the authority of any ordinance of the Northwest Territories shall he subject to the legislative authority of the province in which its head office is situated at the date upon which this Act takes effect to the same extent in all respects as if incorporated by or under the authority of the legislature thereof. He said : The first paragraph of this section is an adaptation of section 129 of the British North America Act and provides for the continuance of existing counts, laws, officials, &c. The second paragraph which is a proviso, has reference to the officials that are now appointed for the purpose of carrying out the ordinances in force in the Territories ; the ordinances of course are continued and provision is made that the new provinces will have the power to reappoint functionaries necessary to carry out these ordinances that are so continued. Clause 2 provides for the reorganization of the judicial system after the Territories are formed into provinces, and Clauses 3 and 4 provide for the continuation of incorporated societies. The provision authorizing the courts to carry on the contestation of elections after the provinces are organized, will he made by an amendment to the Contested Elections Act which I will have prepared on Monday. Mr. 'SPROULE. What provision have you made with respect to societies.


LIB

Charles Fitzpatrick (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. FITZPATRICK.

That is a very difficult question. These societies are now organized under the Territorial ordinances and each society is authorized to carry on business in tbe whole of the Territories. We are now proceeding to divide the Territories and create two new provinces, and the result will he that these corporations will be under Dominion control because they are operated beyond the limits of the province In order to provide against that, Clauses 3 and 4 make provision. Each joint stock company will continue to have its corporate existence within the limits of that particular province in which the head office is situated, and thus it falls under the control of the provincial legislature of the province where its head office is, but it

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CON

John Waterhouse Daniel

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DANIEL.

U ill continue to have a legal existence after the provinces are formed. [DOT]

Mr. iSPROTJLE. And what about the members of that society who happen to be In the other province ?

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LIB

Charles Fitzpatrick (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. FITZPATRICK.

That is one of the embarrassing things. Of course the corporation is an entity that represents the individuals, and the corporate existence continuing, the individual members of the corporation would simply continue to have the same rights in the corporation as they now have.

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CON

George Eulas Foster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOSTER.

And if the head office is in one province and its business in another?

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LIB

Charles Fitzpatrick (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. FITZPATRICK.

Would that be the case ?

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CON

George Eulas Foster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOSTER.

The'business would extend over both provinces.

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LIB

Charles Fitzpatrick (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. FITZPATRICK.

Exactly, and the solution of that difficulty is that under the Northwest ordinance with reference to a foreign corporation they could be registered in the other province-that ordinance is continued in force-and carry on business in the two provinces, the head office being in one and the registration in the other, absolutely as if they had corporate existence in each.

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CON

George Eulas Foster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOSTER.

They might be refused registration in the other province.

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LIB

Charles Fitzpatrick (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. FITZPATRICK.

That is quite true. I must confess that this clause has given me as much trouble as any in the Bill. 1 would be glad to have the practical experience o'f those who have considered this question. This is an exceedingly important clause and will affect a multitude of interests in the Northwest. This clause is the solution I suggest, but I do not ask to commit the House to it.

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CON

George Eulas Foster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOSTER.

Something like this would occur in a great many instances : A company which is organized under the Dominion or under a province, has taken out a license and has authority for doing its work all through the Northwest Territories, nearly all the loan and trust companies have business in the Northwest. At the present time they are obliged to have an officer who represents them as a head office on whom documents can be served. You will have the head office in one province, but the division of business might make it so that the largei mart of their business will be in the other province. They have paid all their fees and thev have their rights under existing legislation, and you will still continue them where the head office is represented, but 'they seem to have no status at all in the other province in which their head <"hec is not represented, and will fall under whatever penalties, fees, registration laws and so on, which may be adopted by that province. I do not see why it cannot be provided that existing societies should be protected in their right to do business under present conditions in both provinces.

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LIB

Charles Fitzpatrick (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. FITZPATRICK.

I first drew' a clause which 1 thought met the difficulty suggested by my hon. friend (Mr. Foster), but after having submitted it to one who was more .competent to deal with it than I am, the present clause was suggested to me. I want to elicit discussion on this point, that I may see if I have met the difficulties I had in my mind, and if this clause is not sufficiently comprehensive it might be amended again.

Mr. iSPROTJLE. In the case of members of the medical profession, veterinary surgeons, and members of dental associations, it is usually provided in organizing an association that it should include those who are practising their profession at the time ot the organization. Could the difficulty in this case not he gotten over by providing that all those who now have authority fo practise their profession might continue to practise in any portion of either of these two provinces. Then, in the future each province cculd establish its own standard for those wTbo enter afterwards.

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LIB

Charles Fitzpatrick (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. FITZPATRICK.

That is exactly the difficulty I had in view when I drew section 4 and I think it meets the difficulty.

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CON

Haughton Lennox

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. LENNOX.

If I may he allowed to go back to the beginning of section 15 I would like to have an explanation from the minister to the first few words of that section as now proposed :

Except as otherwise provided by this Act all laws (including the provisions of the North West Territories' Act and amendments thereto notwithstanding the repeal thereof by this Act) and all orders and regulations made thereunder-

And so on, shall be continued. The Northwest Territories Act, I presume refers to the Act of 1875 and the amendments thereto What I would like to know from the minister is how far that affects the question of the school laws. If by section 15 we are virtually perpetuating the Northwest Territories Act of 1S75 and its amendments, and all orders and regulations made thereunder, which would I presume include the ordinances, we may by section lo be virtually settling the question that we are later on proposing to discuss. It is suggested by a gentleman on this side of the House that that is subject to repeal by the legislature, and I notice that it is also subject to be abolished or altered by the parlia ment of Canada. I would like to have the benefit of the minister's explanation as to what effect he thinks that has.

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LIB

Charles Fitzpatrick (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. FITZPATRICK.

Section 24 of the Bill provides for the repeal of the Northwest Territories Act, so that our desire is to get rid of that Act absolutely and at tbe

same time to continue in force in the province those provisions of the Northwest Territories Act as amended which are not inconsistent with the terms of this Act. I do not think that by any possible construction this would make applicable section 11 of the Northwest Territories Act of 1875. The section is drafted so as to continue the whole body of the law as they have it in the Northwest Territories-the law as introduced by the Northwest Territories Act, the law as introduced since that time by*the ordinances, the law in existence subsequent to the union and previous to the union of Great Britain and Ireland, and the law as introduced by the Dominion of Canada. All that law is to be continued until such time as the province deals with it itself. With respect to legislation under the powers of the Dominion of Canada, that can only be amended and altered by us ; with respect to the law in force in the Territories which is the result of imperial legislation. thflt can only be touched by the imperial parliament; and with respect to that in force by virtue of the ordinances, that will be dealt with by the province. But if there is any form of words which my hon. friend will suggest to make it absolutely clear that there is no intention by this section to continue ;in any way, directly or indirectly, the school provisions in the Act of 1875, my hon. friend has only to suggest it and I will make the change.

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CON

Haughton Lennox

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. LENNOX.

My hon. friend will understand that I did not come to the conclusion that it does so. I merely wanted to know what the meaning of that was. and I mav have something to say of it again. I want to look over it more carefully.

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May 12, 1905