Mr. LALOR.

We expect the government to buy as cheap as it can, irrespective of what the commercial people pay. If the government could get cheaper rates, it should do so.

Mr. AMES.

The hon. member for Pictou has again misunderstood me. I said that any tramp steamer can put into the port of Pictou and buy coal just as cheaply as the government can. But what I claim is that if the government, which has nine boats engaged in the ocean and river service, would bulk its contract for a single season, it could buy the coal at a considerable reduction.

Mr. A. JOHNSTON.

There are people in this country who buy very much more coal than the Dominion government does and are larger consumers of it, and they are not getting their coal any cheaper. The price which the government is paying is a reasonable one. Are we to understand from the member from Montreal (Mr. Ames) that he desires the government to purchase the coal at a price which would not be reasonable, and which would be considered by people in the trade as unreasonable ?

Mr. INGRAM.

I would like to ask the hon. member for Pictou (Mr. Macdonald) if he says that on the ' Stanley ' which is 207 feet long, 32 feet beam and 19 feet deep, with a gross tonnage of 914 tons, the only means they have for loading that vessel is by 20 or 30 men carrying coal in baskets containing two shovels apiece.

Mr. E. M. MACDONALD.

Where ?

Sir. AMES.

That is not pertinent to the question. I have consulted experts who have handled immense quantities of coal, and they told me most unequivocally that if this method were adopted the government could save considerable money. If there is any doubt about that, let the government try the experiment.

S1ACDONALD. Then the hon. gentleman admits that the government is now receiving coal as cheap as it can be bought for commercial purposes. He wants it, however, to enter on an experiment, but is unwilling to give the information as to where that experiment will land the country.

Sir. LALOR.

What objection has the hon. gentleman to the government trying the experiment ?

S1ACDONALD. Because my hon. friend has admitted that the government is now receiving coal at the same rate as is paid for coal commercially in the maritime provinces. I do not know that my hon. friend from Haldimand expects the government to pay less than an ordinary business man would pay. If the government are receiving coal at that figure, why make an experiment which might prove more costly ?

Mr. AMES.

Sir. S1ACDONALD. I do not know if my hon. friend was in the House when the minister made the announcement that the ' Stanley ' which * was constructed by the government in power previous to 1896 was so constructed that it was impossible for her to receive coal through a coal chute, and that the only way in which coal could be supplied was by carrying it in baskets.

Sir. INGRAS1. The hon. gentleman leads us to believe that he endorses that. The 'Minto ' is of 225 feet, 13 feet depth, &c., and the same principle is involved in loading her. Are they loaded by baskets in all ports of the maritime provinces ?

I might point out to my hon. friend-apparently he was not here when the matter was discussed

Mr. INGRAM.

I would like to point out to my hon. friend that I am always here.

Mr. MACDONALD.

My hon. friend, if he was here, must be very obtuse at times. Sly hon. friend also should visit the maritime provinces, particularly at winter time. If he went down there he would find that these two steamers to which he refers have been engaged in the winter service between Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island. With the greatest possible difficulty they are able to reach, in these harbours to which they run,

some wharf where their passengers and supplies may be landed. It is impossible for them to' get to the coal piers in Pictou harbour where the coal is supplied in the summer. My hon. friend will see that in winter it is not a question of construction at all, but it is a matter of necessity that coal if it is to be put on board these boats must be put on board by hand as it is impossible to get to the wharf where the coal chutes are on account of the ice.

Mr. R. L. BORDEN.

Is it the practice in winter to load all steamers in this way ?

Mr. MACDONALD.

There is no other

way to do it.

Mr. R. L. BORDEN.

Are there not coal chutes ?

Mr. MACDONALD.

It is impossible for steamers in Pictou to go to the wharfs where the regular coal chutes are.

Mr. A. A. McLEAN.

I understand the situation in Pictou very well, and I think that, if this coal was elevated, as there are side hatches on both of these vessels, there is no doubt that with a very small expense chutes could be erected so that the coal could be put on board at comparatively small expense. The coal could be elevated by two or three men instead of 30 or 40, and from that elevation it could be put in chutes and placed on the vessels at small expense. I think the minister should see to this. I would like to ask the minister what the expense of loading these vessels is ? The minister should be in a position to state the expense of loading. The men who were engaged in this business are engaged in it exclusively, and the cost should be at the minister's command.

Mr. BLAIN.

Are we to understand that the minister keeps a staff of men for the purpose of carrying coal on vessels at these different points.

Mr. PREFONTAINE.

No.

Mr. BLAIN- My hon friend says ' no.' Then how is it ? Do you let a contract to a certain man to carry the coal ?