February 28, 1905

LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

This association does not come into competition with the seed dealers in any shape or form. It is not the deputy minister who is secretary of the association, but the seed commissioner, and he is simply acting as such at the start, and will cease to hold that office within a very short time.

Topic:   INSPECTION AND SALE OF SEEDS.
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CON

William Foster Cockshutt

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. COCKSHETT.

I ask that the committee be allowed to sit again for further consideration of the proposed amendments, as it is desirable that we should have an [DOT]opportunity to look over them.

Topic:   INSPECTION AND SALE OF SEEDS.
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LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

These amendments are [DOT]simply carrying out what was suggested a few days ago. I am willing to give the House an opportunity to discuss them, however, if the hon. gentleman wants us to reconsider them.

Topic:   INSPECTION AND SALE OF SEEDS.
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CON

William Foster Cockshutt

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. COCKSHETT.

The hon. minister thinks we can understand clauses we have not seen at all, though many legal gentlemen differ in their opinions regarding the proposed amendments. It will do them no harm to let them lay over a day or two, and give us a chance to investigate them and compare them with the Bill itself.

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LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

The Bill was referred back for the purpose of thoroughly considering the amendments proposed by the Department of Justice to meet the views expressed the other day.

Topic:   INSPECTION AND SALE OF SEEDS.
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CON

Thomas Simpson Sproule

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SPROELE.

There is considerable need for time to consider the amendments, and the question is whether the House has had time to do this. In my opinion, the hon. minister should grant the request of the hon. gentleman from Brantford. It could not interfere with the passage of the Bill afterwards.

Topic:   INSPECTION AND SALE OF SEEDS.
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CON

Peter White

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. WHITE.

I would suggest to the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Fisher) that he agree to the proposition made by the hon. member for Brantford. For he can see quite clearly that if he refuses that reasonable proposition and the committee now reports the Bill, when the Bill is brought up for third reading, the hon. member for Brantford may move the House back into committee. Ender these circumstances it seems to me that the minister might well yield the point, especially as the hon. member for Brantford has not had an opportunity to consider the amendments proposed in the Bill.

Mr. FISHER, I was going to suggest that we should report the Bill, but not read it the third time to-day. When the third reading is proposed, if my hon. friend from Brantford (Mr. Cockshutt) wished to change it in any way, he can move that the Bill be again referred to the Committee of the Whole to consider these proposed changes. That is the appropriate and simple course.

Topic:   INSPECTION AND SALE OF SEEDS.
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CON

George Taylor (Chief Opposition Whip; Whip of the Conservative Party (1867-1942))

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. TAYLOR.

That will do.

Bill reported.

Topic:   INSPECTION AND SALE OF SEEDS.
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RAILWAY ACT, 1903, AMENDMENT.


Hon. CHARLES FITZPATRICK (Minister of Justice) moved the third reading of Bill (No. 36) to amend the Railway Act, 1903. He said: This is the Bill we had up the other day with respect to provision for chairman of the Railway Commission. ill-. HAEGHTON LENNOX (South Sim-coe). I gave the Minister of Justice (Mr. Fitzpatrick) notice that I proposed to move to amend this Bill by striking out section 4. That section reads as follows :- If, between the date of the appointment of any such chief commissioner or of his resignation of his office as such judge and the date of his resignation of, or retirement from, the office of chief commissioner, the salary attached to the judicial office which he held at the time of



his appointment, or which he resigned for the purpose of accepting appointment as such chief commissioner, has been increased, the annuity to be granted to him under this Act may be increased in the same proportion. By sections 2 and 3, provision is made that the chief commissioner, being a judge of the Superior Court at the time of his appointment as chief commissioner shall be entitled to the allowance that he would have been entitled to if he had continued in office. These are very considerable advantages, and the section, in this respect, probably goes as far as the circumstances of the country will justify. It has been determined by parliament, that, if a judge holds his office for fifteen years, and, at the end of that time retires from his position through permanent affliction, he shall be entitled to two-thirds of the salary he would be entitled to as judge. And the same Act which so provides contains a further proposition that when a judge attains the age of 75 years and has been for twenty years on the bench, or attains the age of seventy years and has been for twenty-five years in office; or when, regardless of age, he has been a judge for thirty years, he shall be entitled to retire upon an allowance equal to his full salary. Judge Killam, having been appointed from the bench to the chief com-missionership, is entitled to all these advantages, just as if he had continued to be a judge. The Act will apply in every case where we appoint a judge of a Superior Court to the position of high commissioner. Judge Killam has been upon the bench for twenty years and is now fifty-five years of age. He is now appointed to the chief com-missionership. If he continues in that position for ten years, he will, under subsection (e) of section 3 of this Bill, be entitled to full retiring allowance as a judge, and, in the meantime, he will have the advantages that accrue from his new position, as an extra, amounting, in ten years to $30,000. Then, under section 2, he is immediately entitled, if he retires from his position, to a retiring allowance of two-thirds of his salary. The proposition is that, if we change the status of retiring allowances of the judges, the gentleman now appointed, or any who may hereafter be appointed from the bench to the chief commissionership, will be entitled not only to all the benefits that accrue from the office of chief commissionership, but shall be entitled also to all the advantages accruing to those who continue to labour on the bench. I cannot see the justice of that position. It can work a very great injustice in many instances. Why, if we should increase the salaries of the judges to $15,000, the gentleman who takes the position of chief commissioner to-day can resign to-morrow, having been twenty years upon the bench,-he could do so even if he had been there but fifteen years-and can have an allowance of $10,000 a year, which is as great as the present salary of his office.


CON

Haughton Lennox

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. LENNOX.

Either upon resigning his position or retiring because of permanent disability, he would be entitled to all the benefits that would accrue to the judges who continue to discharge the functions of their office. I. object to this as urgently as I possibly can; and I hope that hon. gentlemen on both sides of the House will consider the matter carefully, in order, that no man, however eminent may have the advantage attaching to two positions. As I have shown the increase of salary to Judge Killam by reason of the new appointment is $3,000 a year, or $30,000 in ten years, with all the possibility that the salary attached to the new position may be increased. He would also benefit by salaries of the judicial office hereafter. The gentleman who takes the position of chief commissioner has unlimited time, from the time of his appointment to that of his retirement of his position, which may be twenty or thirty years. He has all the chances accruing to the bench in that time.

Take the instance of Judge Killam as an illustration. He may remain in this position for twenty years, he may have been paid an additional remuneration by reason of that changed position of $G0,000. In those twenty years great changes may take place in this country, and the salaries of judges may be greatly increased, involving an additional retiring allowance which may amount to $15,000-I am speaking of a Supi'eme Court judge. This gentleman would then be entitled by reason of the arrangements we are now making to this additional retiring allowance. I need not say mere about this. I feel strongly that we are moving in the wrong direction if we pass this clause, i therefore move that Bill (No. 36) to amend the Railway Act, 1903, be referred back to the committee to amend the same by striking out paragraph 4 thereof.

Topic:   RAILWAY ACT, 1903, AMENDMENT.
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LIB

Charles Fitzpatrick (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. FITZPATRICK.

As I explained when this Bill was introduced and on several occasions during the progress of the debate in committee, the intention is to provide that a judge who holds the position of chairman of the Railway Commission shall be in no way prejudiced by reason of his acceptance of that office, either with respect to his tenure of office or with respect to his retiring allowance. This clause is merely intended to give effect to that intention with respect to any increase of salary that may affect a judge during the time this commissioner shall occupy his position. Now, this section is as necessary as any of the other sections we have introduced to carry out the object we have in view ; therefore, I am sorry to say I cannot accept the amendment suggested by my hon. friend (Mr. Lennox).

Topic:   RAILWAY ACT, 1903, AMENDMENT.
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CON

Thomas Simpson Sproule

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SPROULE.

This seems to me to be class legislation of a most extreme character.

Topic:   RAILWAY ACT, 1903, AMENDMENT.
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LIB

Charles Fitzpatrick (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. FITZPATRICK.

I think we have heard that before.

Topic:   RAILWAY ACT, 1903, AMENDMENT.
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CON

Thomas Simpson Sproule

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SPROULE.

You cannot hear a good thing too often. As long as the minister refrains from doing what in our judgment is right, we cannot remind him of it too often. This is made practically for the judges and for no others, and cannot be taken advantage of by any others.

Topic:   RAILWAY ACT, 1903, AMENDMENT.
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LIB

Charles Fitzpatrick (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. FITZPATRICK.

I am afraid that is true.

Topic:   RAILWAY ACT, 1903, AMENDMENT.
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CON

Thomas Simpson Sproule

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SPROULE.

It is objectionable in this feature, that it gives him the advantage of a higher position as well as the advantages that may accrue in future from any increase in the salary of judges. I think it is very improper and unjust legislation.

House divided on amendment (Mr. Lennox).

YEAS :

Messieurs

Alcorn, Lake,

Ames, Lalor,

Archambault, Lancaster,

Armstrong, [DOT] Lennox,

Barker, Maclean (York, S.),

Barr, McCarthy (Calgary),

Bennett, McLean (Queen's, P.E.I

Bergeron, Martin (Queen's, P.E.I.)

Blain, Monk,

Boyce, Paquet,

Chisholm, Porter,

Christie, Roche (Marquette),

Clare, S chaff ner,

Clements, Sproule,

Cochrane, Staples,

Cocksliutt, Stockton,

Crocket, Taylor,

Elson, Walsh,

Ganong, White,

Gunn, Wilmot,

Henderson, Wilson

Herron, (Lennox & Add.)

Hughes (Victoria), Worthington,

Ingram, Wright (Muskoka).-17.

Jackson (Elgin),

NAYS : Messieurs

Beauparlant, Lavergne

BSIand, (Montmagny),

Black, Law,

Bole, LeBlanc,

Borden Lemieux,

(Sir Frederick), Loggie,

Boyer, Lovell,

Brodeur, Maclean (Lunenburg),

Caldwell, Macpherson,

Calvert, McCool,

Carney, McIntyre,

Carvell, Mclsaac,

Cash, McKenzie (Bruce),

Clark (Essex), Costigan,

Crawford,

Cyr,

Demers (St. John),

Derbyshire,

Desjardins,

Dubeau,

Ethler,

Fielding,

Finlay,

McKenzie

(Cape Breton, N.), McLennan,

Marcil (Bagot),

Marcil (Bonaventure), Meigs,

Mulock

(Sir William), Oliver,

Parmelee,

Paterson,

Finlayson, Piehd,

Fisher, Pickup, j

Fitzpatrick, PrSfontaine,

Fortier, Proulx,

Galliher, Riley, [DOT]

Gauvreau, Geoffrion, Rivet,

Roche (Halifax),

Girard, Ross (Yale-Cariboo),

Gladu, Savoie,

Gordon, Schell (Glengarry),

Grant, Schell (Oxford),

Greenway, Scott,

Guthrie, Sifton,

Hall, Sinclair,

Hughes (King's, P.E.I.), Sloan,

Jackson (Selkirk), Smith (Nanaimo),

Johnston Stewart,

(Cape Breton, S.), Talbot (Bellechasse),

Johnston (Lambton), Talbot (Strathcona),

Kennedy, Telford,

Lamont, Tobin,

Laurier (Sir Wilfrid), Turgeon,

Laurier Turriff,

(L'Assomption), Watson,

Lavergne Wright (Renfrew),

(Drum. & Arth.), Zimmerman.-93.

PAIRS :

Ministerial Opposition

Adamson, Avery,

Belcourt, Bland,

Macdonald (Pictou), Borden (Carleton),

Bourassa, Brabazon,

Bourbonnais, Broder,

Bureau, Leonard,

Burrows, Lewis,

Campbell, Clarke (Toronto),

Conmee, 'Daniel,

Dyment, Maclaren,

Emmerson, Fowler,

Biclcerdike, Foster,

Gallery, Tisdale,

German, Macdonell,

Gervais, Kemp, ,

Sutherland (Oxford), Haggart,

Harty, Reid (Grenville),

Hyman, Pringle,

Logan, Lefurgey,

McCarthy (Simcoe), Northrup,

McColl, Ward,

Martin (Wellington), Seagram,

Mayrand," Morin,

Miller, Perley,

Ratz, Osier,

Wilson (Russell). Forget.

Amendment-Mr. Lennox-negatived.

Bill as amended, passed. read the third time and

THIRD READINGS.

Bill (No. 51), respecting Contracts for Government Works-Mr. Fitzpatrick.

Bill (No. 53), to amend the Act respecting the Department of Railways and Canals. -Mr. Emmerson.

Bill (No. 54), to amend the Public Works Act.-'Mr. Hyman.

Topic:   RAILWAY ACT, 1903, AMENDMENT.
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SUPPLY-ABUSE OF FRANKING PRIVILEGES.

?

Hon. W. S.@

FIELDING (Minister of Finance) moved that the House go into Committee of Supply.

Topic:   SUPPLY-ABUSE OF FRANKING PRIVILEGES.
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February 28, 1905