Mr. FISHER.

I think the hon. member for West Algoma (Mr. Boyce) has a little misunderstood what we agreed upon the other night in the committee. There were-certain doubts raised in regard to clause 11, which I quite admitted might be referred 571

to the Department of Justice, so that it might be made clear that it expressed what I intended and what I gathered to be the sense of the committee ; but I do not think it was intended to refer any of the other clauses or that one which my hon. friend brought up. That clause was discussed at some length and was eventually accepted by the committee, though, of course, my hon. friend did not agree with the decision of the committee. I moved that the Bill be referred back to the committee for the express purpose of amending these clauses 10 and 11. That has now been done, and I do not think it would be in the interest of the Bill or in the interest of the House further to discuss matters which have already been settled. As the hon. member for East Grey (Mr. Sproule) says, there is no need of going out of committee in order to go back into committee. We are now in committee, and any member may move for the reconsideration of any clause in the Bill.

Mr. HAGGART.

Let us clearly understand that. When a Bill is recommitted for the purpose of our considering two clauses, can any other clause be considered 1

Mr. SAM. HUGHES.

I know it is of great consequence to the Minister of Justice to have to sit and listen to this thing ; I know he wishes the Bill were in another climate ; but I think we would like to have him apply his genius to it and make it as perfect as possible.

Mr. FITZPATRICK.

It is so perfect that I do not see any need of that.

Mr. WHITE.

If the Bill is referred back to the committee for the purpose of considering certain clauses, these clauses only can be considered ; but when the amended Bill comes up for consideration, and the motion is made to read the amendments, then the whole Bill is open for discussion.

Mr. FITZPATRICK.

Exactly ; that is in the House.

Mr. MACLAREN.

As a farmer myself and also engaged in a business which obliges me to travel all over the country, I may say that no one is more anxious than I to have pure seeds sown on our lands, and no one can feel more disappointed when he sees a farm covered with mustard and all kinds of obnoxious weeds. At the same time I think we had better refer this Bill over to the Agriculture Committee, because that committee is in a better position to get the views of the farmers as to what should be done. I have a letter here from one of the seedsmen of my city objecting very seriously to this Bill passing in the shape in which he received it a few days ago, and he wants it amended in many respects. I am in favour of abolishing by every means weeds as much as possible, but I would like to have something done that would be practicable ; and I

think we should pause and reflect very seriously-before passing a measure such as this,- which may have the effect of making it almost impossible for a man to deal in the seed business at all. I would therefore strongly urge that it would be sent to the Agriculture Committee and let that committee amend and put it in such shape that it will be practicable.

Mr. LAIX)It. May I be permitted to ask whether there is such an organization as the Canadian Seed Growers' Association, and who are the members of that association ?

Mr. FISHER.

There is a Canadian Seed Growers' Association, but I could not undertake to give my hon. friend the names of its members. They are spread over a very considerable part of the Dominion of Canada.

Mr. LALOR.

Is not that association organized for the purpose of furnishing pure seed to the people of this country ? and have they not seed for sale, which will be recognized as pure seed 1

Mr. FISHER.

I have nob with me the by-laws of the Seed Growers' Association. I was not even present when the association was formed, having another engagement ; but I understand that the Seed Growers' Association was formed for the purpose of growing improved seed by selection and other means; and I believe that one of the objects of the association is to create a register for pure seeds, somewhat similar to the register for pure live stock, under certain rules, regulations and conditions. I cannot tell what these rules, regulations and conditions are. I am not sure that they have even been formulated.

Mr. COCIvSHUTT. Might I ask the hon. minister if any servant of the Seed Growers Association is in the pay of the government or of the Department of Agriculture ?

Mr. FISHER.

Yes, I believe the Seed Commissioner of my department is acting as the secretary of that association.

Mr. COCKSHIJTT.

Is that not calculated to still further jeopardize the interests of the trade ? If the Seed Growers' Association is provided with servants free of charge, while men selling seeds have to pay their own hands, will not the competition tend to grow worse between the Seed Growers' Association and the seed dealers of Canada ? It is only within the last day or two that my attention has been drawn to the fact that such an organization exists, and if that association is going to raise seed under government paid servants and compete with those who have no such government paid servants, it does not appear to me to be legitimate competition.

ME FISHER. I am not aware that the Seed Growers' Association has anything Mr. MACLAREN.

to do with the sale of seeds. The officer of the department certainly has not. I have no doubt that members of the Seed Growers' Association will themselves sell seeds. One of the objects of the association is to encourage the growing of better seed, but I do not think that will interfere in any way with the business of the seed dealers of the country. On the contrary, I think it will enable them to get good seed from the growers. The object of the Seed Growers' Association is to improve the seed grown, and in that way to aid those who deal in seeds as well as those who grow them.

Mr. COCIvSHUTT. I understood that the object of the association was not only to raise seed, but to sell it direct to those who consume it. That was part of my information which may be wrong, but if it be correct it appears to me that we are creating an unfair competition.

Mr. FISHER.

I do not understand that the association has anything to do with the sale of seeds. The men who belong to the association can sell them, just as men who belong to the Live Stock Association can sell their stock.

Mr. LALOR.

Will the Department of Agriculture recommend the seeds grown by the Seeds Association ?

Mr. FISHER.

If seeds grown by members of the association were submitted to the association and registered as pure seeds, the department might put its imprimatur oh that register or certificate, just as they would in the case of pure stock, but the department would not recommend that these seeds be bought. All the department would do would be to certify that they came up to a certain standard.

Mr. LALOR.

This will be the germ of competition by the association against ordinary seed gi'owers. The latter will have to compete with an association which is officered largely by men paid out of the public exchequer and connected with the Department of Agriculture, and I am also advised that the Minister of Agriculture is himself a member of the association. It does not seem to me fair that the ordinary seed merchant should have to compete with an organization of that kind. Whether that be the case or not, to the ordinary individual it looks as if the Bill now before the House were in the interests of the Seed Growers' Association ; and, of course, the farmers will naturally go to an association which is so closely identified with the Department of Agriculture. That is not fair to the farmers or seed merchants or the wholesale trade.

Mr. FISHER.

My hon. friend has put the cart before the horse. The Bill is not introduced for the benefit of the association, but the association has, to a large extent, grown out of the agitation in favour

of pure seeds, just as other associations for the improvement of various branches of agriculture have grown out of the knowledge of what can be done by co-operation or organization. Any one who chooses can join the association. There is not even a fee required. X am not a member of it myself. An officer of my department is connected with it at present as secretary, but that is only while it is in its formative stage ; and it is not intended that any officer of my department shall continue long to be an officer of it.

Mr. WALSH.

This association will compete with the other seed growers and sellers.

Mr. FISHER.

The association has no power to sell seed, and its individual members will certainly come under the operation of the law just the same as anybody else.

Mr. COCKSHETT.

But I understand that under this Bill the deputy minister is to be the judge and jury in determining whether or not certain seeds come up to the standard. If this officer is also an officer of the Seed Growers' Association, will not this happen ? If samples be sent in by two persons, one of whom is a member of the association and the other is not, the outside dealer will be handicapped by the fact that he has to send in his samples to an officer of that association, the members of whieh are competing with him in his business. If an official of the department is also at the head of the association, you may have a combine. It does not seem to me wise that any officer of the department should become an officer of the association, especially when he has to sit in each case as judge and jury. All samples of seeds must be submitted to him ; and if he is interested in the association, that may incline him to lean a little more one way than the other. The fact of his being an officer of the association would probably lead dealers to suspect his decisions, though they might be perfectly right. I would be sorry to see any official of the department connected with a corporation that may compete with private dealers.