February 15, 1905

L-C

Andrew B. Ingram

Liberal-Conservative

Mr. INGRAM.

It would be interesting to know what number of employees the department has now under the Act respecting the census, the Act respecting statistics, and the Act respecting criminal statistics and the salaries paid.

Topic:   THE ANSWERING OF QUESTIONS BY MINISTERS.
Subtopic:   CENSUS AND STATISTICS.
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LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

I had a list yesterday of the employees, but regret that for the

moment I cannot lay my hand on it. Speaking from memory there are at present four paid out of civil government; I think there were four more whom we paid out of the general statistics vote who were practically permanent in the department. Three have been in the department for many years. One is a sort of messenger and typewriter who was appointed several years ago. There are also six employees who have been engaged in working up certain tables from the compilations of the census. That makes altogether fourteen employees in this branch. Of course, none of these are paid out of the census vote, but all are paid out of the general statistics vote, except one or two who are paid out of civil government. There is one officer employed in preparing the criminal statistics. The statistics are secured by arrangement with the judicial officers all over the Dominion, who are paid for sending in the returns. These returns are edited and put into the form of a report, and there is no expense here for compilation except the salary of one clerk. I think he is a junior second-class clerk and is paid $1,100 a year. His salary is charged to civil government. All the others are paid out of the general statistics vote. There is no payment out of the census vote or under the Census Act this year.

Topic:   THE ANSWERING OF QUESTIONS BY MINISTERS.
Subtopic:   CENSUS AND STATISTICS.
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L-C

Andrew B. Ingram

Liberal-Conservative

Mr. INGRAM.

Then, money voted toy parliament for general statistics has been taken for the census ?

Topic:   THE ANSWERING OF QUESTIONS BY MINISTERS.
Subtopic:   CENSUS AND STATISTICS.
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LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

I explained yesterday to the hon. member for South Leeds (Mr. Taylor) that certain tables had been made up from the facts compiled in the census, i suppose this might be called census work, but it is a kind of work that I want to have go on under the Act we are now discussing ail the time between the times of taking a census. There is a vast quantity of information in the census volume which it is important to the public to have published in tabulated form. That is the work that some of these clerks have been doing. Some of these tables will be finished before the publication of the last volume of the census-some of them are ready now. I think it would be advisable that they should appear in this last census volume. I confess frankly that I cannot define precisely the limit between what may fairly be called census compilation and tabulation of this kind. I would point out that, under the arrangements of the United States permanent census bureau, they have already published two or three very important volumes of information drawn from the census-not issued as part of the census, but as special volumes. And they have a list in the document we have here, of subjects some of which are now in course of tabulation and others of which will be taken up as opportunity offers.

Topic:   THE ANSWERING OF QUESTIONS BY MINISTERS.
Subtopic:   CENSUS AND STATISTICS.
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L-C

Andrew B. Ingram

Liberal-Conservative

Mr. INGRAM.

Then, the figures the minister has given us as to the actual cost of Mr. FISHER.

the census are hardly correct because some of the money voted for general statistics has been taken to complete the census ?

Topic:   THE ANSWERING OF QUESTIONS BY MINISTERS.
Subtopic:   CENSUS AND STATISTICS.
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LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

The figure I gave the other day included all that could possibly be charged to the census, down to the date fixed-the 1st of January.

Topic:   THE ANSWERING OF QUESTIONS BY MINISTERS.
Subtopic:   CENSUS AND STATISTICS.
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L-C

Andrew B. Ingram

Liberal-Conservative

Mr. INGRAM.

What was the amount '1

Topic:   THE ANSWERING OF QUESTIONS BY MINISTERS.
Subtopic:   CENSUS AND STATISTICS.
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LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

I do not recollect. It is recorded in ' Hansard.' I included in that aggregate every charge that could with any reason be charged to the census. I can assure my hon. friend (Mr. Ingram) that I do not wish in any way to minimize the expenditure in connection with the census.

Topic:   THE ANSWERING OF QUESTIONS BY MINISTERS.
Subtopic:   CENSUS AND STATISTICS.
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L-C

Andrew B. Ingram

Liberal-Conservative

Mr. INGRAM.

Is it not the fact that when parliament voted the money for general statistics, it intended the money to be expended for that work ?

Topic:   THE ANSWERING OF QUESTIONS BY MINISTERS.
Subtopic:   CENSUS AND STATISTICS.
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LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

I cannot speak as to that. But I can say that I intend to go on drawing information from the census. Believing that , there was information of a statistical nature to be drawn from the census compilation, I sought to have that information tabulated. As being in charge of the general statistics service, I have always had the power-and on different occasions have exercised that power-to instruct the proper officers to draw up such tabulations. I do not pretend, and never have pretended that we should refuse to regard the census compilation as one of the sources from which we should draw information for general statistical purposes. Those compilations contain an enormous amount of information of great value to the public, but the ordinary individual can not extract that information for himself. It is the duty of the statistical staff to do that work and to do it in a way which will meet, not perhaps, individual demand, but a general demand. In that sense and to that extent that work has been done during the last fiscal year.

Topic:   THE ANSWERING OF QUESTIONS BY MINISTERS.
Subtopic:   CENSUS AND STATISTICS.
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L-C

Andrew B. Ingram

Liberal-Conservative

Mr. INGRAM.

I think the Minister of Agriculture does not use the best judgment in choosing how he should expend this money. He gives to parliament a very wide interpretation indeed. In fact, he has been known to devote money voted by this parliament to an entirely different purpose from that for which parliament voted it. The hon. gentleman has taken some of the money that was voted for the census and expended it in investigating the census that had been taken ten years previous, and parliament never voted the money for that purpose ; and we complain that the hon. gentleman has diverted money voted by parliament to a purpose that it was never intended for. It may be so now, that the money voted for statistical purposes, and that should be expended in a certain way, has been diverted and put into the census expenditures of this year, and will never be shown in the total census expenditure.

On section 4,-census enumerators-collection of statistics-temporary clerks and *employees.

Topic:   THE ANSWERING OF QUESTIONS BY MINISTERS.
Subtopic:   CENSUS AND STATISTICS.
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CON

Richard Blain

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BLAIN.

Will the minister give us an explanation of the meaning of ' census subdistrict ? '

Topic:   THE ANSWERING OF QUESTIONS BY MINISTERS.
Subtopic:   CENSUS AND STATISTICS.
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LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

Let me first explain that this section is a combination of the similar *clauses in the two Acts that are here consolidated, the Census Act, section 9, and the Statistics Act, section 3. This is a consolidation of these two Acts, and I have brought the powers and authorities under these two Acts together in this section 4 and its subclauses. There is no additional power asked for in this Act. As to the meaning of a census subdistrict, a census district is the district for which there is a commissioner appointed, like the division of a riding or an electoral district, a subdistrict is the enumeration district.

Topic:   THE ANSWERING OF QUESTIONS BY MINISTERS.
Subtopic:   CENSUS AND STATISTICS.
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CON

Richard Blain

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BLAIN.

What would that be in the province of Ontario ?

Topic:   THE ANSWERING OF QUESTIONS BY MINISTERS.
Subtopic:   CENSUS AND STATISTICS.
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LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

Generally speaking, in the last census we used the polling subdivisions. We took them as the basis of the subdistricts-those are the exact words in the present Census Act-to provide for the division of census districts into subdistricts for enumeration purposes.

Topic:   THE ANSWERING OF QUESTIONS BY MINISTERS.
Subtopic:   CENSUS AND STATISTICS.
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CON

Richard Blain

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BLAIN.

In other words, the minister will have power to appoint every year the same number of officers that he appoints every ten years under the old Act.

Topic:   THE ANSWERING OF QUESTIONS BY MINISTERS.
Subtopic:   CENSUS AND STATISTICS.
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LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

I have that power to-day under the General Statistics Act; but I would never think of exercising it. It is quite out of my plan, as I explained yesterday.

Topic:   THE ANSWERING OF QUESTIONS BY MINISTERS.
Subtopic:   CENSUS AND STATISTICS.
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CON

Joseph Elijah Armstrong

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. ARMSTRONG.

I understand from with reference to gathering statistics. Would it not be advisable to take into consideration the fact that there were imported into our country over one hundred million dollars worth of manufactured goods in the year 1904 ; and would it not be interesting to our people to know about how many men are employed, and the amount of money that is being paid to workmen in foreign countries to manufacture the goods that come into this country ? For instance, $100,000,000 worth of goods that might have been manufactured in Canada were imported in 1904, and outside of that, the increase in importations from Great Britain and the United States from 1896 to 1902 was $34,778,000. I would like to ask the minister if it is possible for him to obtain that information.

Topic:   THE ANSWERING OF QUESTIONS BY MINISTERS.
Subtopic:   CENSUS AND STATISTICS.
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LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

No doubt that line of investigation might be very interesting, but I think it would be my duty first to investigate the conditions and productions within our country before undertaking to investigate those in foreign countries.

Topic:   THE ANSWERING OF QUESTIONS BY MINISTERS.
Subtopic:   CENSUS AND STATISTICS.
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CON

Arthur Cyril Boyce

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BOYCE.

Could the minister tell the committee how much it costs to collect the criminal statistics ?

Topic:   THE ANSWERING OF QUESTIONS BY MINISTERS.
Subtopic:   CENSUS AND STATISTICS.
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February 15, 1905