February 8, 1905

?

Hon. H. R.@

EMMERSON (Minister of

Railways and Canals) :

1. Working expenses, $4,104,018.93 :

ceipts, $3,621,263.91.

Year. [DOT] Amount.

2. 1897 $ 145,142 00

1898 252,367 20

1899 1,081,929 94

1900 1,796,348 29

1901.. .. 3,633,836 57

1902 4,621,841 05

1903 2,254.266 68

1904 1,880.856 60

From June 30th, 1904 to

December 31st 1904.. 733,221 29

Topic:   I. C. R.-RECEIPTS AND EXPENDITURES.
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GRAND TRUNK PACIFIC COMMISSION-STAFF AND SALARIES.

CON

Mr. FOSTER asked :

Conservative (1867-1942)

1. What are the respective dates of appointments of the commissions and working staff of the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Commission ?

2. What is the total amount expended thereon

to December 31, 1904, under the beads, (a) salaries of commissioners ; (b) salaries of staff ;

(c) expenses ; (d) rental of quarters ?

Topic:   GRAND TRUNK PACIFIC COMMISSION-STAFF AND SALARIES.
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LIB

Henry Robert Emmerson (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Liberal

Hon. H. R. EMMERSON (Minister of Railways) :

I shall have to ask the hon. gentleman to move for a return.

Topic:   GRAND TRUNK PACIFIC COMMISSION-STAFF AND SALARIES.
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CON

George Eulas Foster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOSTER.

Will the hon. gentleman allow me to make the motion now ?

Sir WILLIAM MULOCIC Give notice.

Topic:   GRAND TRUNK PACIFIC COMMISSION-STAFF AND SALARIES.
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WORN SILVER COINS.


Mr. FOWLER-by Mr. Lancaster-asked: Is it the intention of the government to take any steps in the near future towards calling in and redeeming at the face value worn silver coins ?


?

Hon. H.@

This matter is under consideration.

Topic:   WORN SILVER COINS.
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EXPORT OF HAY.


Mr. LEFURGEY-by Mr. A. Martin-asked : How many tons of hay were exported from the province of Quebec to Boston, TJ.S.A., for the months of October, November and December, 1904, respectively ?


LIB

William Paterson (Minister of Customs)

Liberal

Hon. WILLIAM PATERSON (Minister of Customs).

Tlie customs returns of exports as compiled show the countries to which goods are exported from Canada, hut do not show the ports of destination. I am therefore unable to answer the question just as the hon. gentleman asks it, but the answer which I am able to give him now will perhaps suit his purpose. The quantity of hay exported from the province of Quebec to the United States during the months of October, November, and December respectively was as follows : October, 3,927 tons ; November, 2,508 tons ; December, 4,327 tons.

Topic:   EXPORT OF HAY.
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MONTREAL HARBOUR SHEDS.

CON

Herbert Brown Ames

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. H. B. AMES (St. Antoine, Montreal) moved :

For copies of all correspondence exchanged since the 1st of October last between (a) P. W. St. George, government superintendent engineer, Montreal Harbour sheds, and the Honourable Minister of Marine and Fisheries, and between (b) the Honourable Minister or the Deputy Minister of Marine and Fisheries and the Harbour Commissioners of Montreal, regarding the plans, specifications or contracts for the new sheds in the port of Montreal.

He said: My object in asking for the correspondence is that its production may tend to reassure the commercial interests of Montreal and the country generally, which are much perturbed by certain disquieting rumours to the effect that the decision of the government in favour of two-story sheds may be changed. I hope that we shall have some explanation from the hon. the Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Prefontaine), on this occasion, of a reassuring character and that the correspondence, when produced, may be of such a nature as will lead us to conclude that the government will adhere to its intention, and the contracts be completed as given out. In order that hon. members may understand that it is not without some reason I have felt compelled to move for this correspondence, let me point out the reasons which have led us to think that possibly the government may be contemplating some changes regarding the construction of steel sheds in the port of Montreal. In answer to a question of mine put on January 25 in this House, the hon. Minister of Marine and Fisheries said that, at his instance, Mr. P. W. St. George, the government engineer on the construction of sheds in the port of Montreal, had prepared independent plans, and that these had been submitted to the minister and were now under consideration. And we are able to

obtain some idea as to the main feature of these plans from a statement made by Mr. Reford the other day at a meeting of the Harbour Board, when he asked that no further progress be made by that board because the government had under consideration certain other plans for one-story sheds. As reported in the Montreal ' Herald,' Mr. Reford said :

The Shipping Federation had appealed to the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, and Mr. St. George's plans for one-story sheds were being Investigated.

Further, on November 15 last, the Harbour Commissioners received from the Deputy Minister of Marine and Fisheries a letter from which I shall read the following extract :

I have the honour to forward herewith, copy of a letter received from the engineer appointed by this department to inspect the contract for the new harbour sheds, accompanied by memorandum and alternate plans, representing that the sheds now contracted for are not suitable for the requirements of the port and proposing some alterations therein ; and I am instructed by the minister to request you to lay the whole question before the Harbour Commission for their discussion and opinion.

And, as a further Indication that there is an element of doubt in this matter, I would refer to u report of a recent meeting of the Harbour Commissioners at which the chief engineer of the port of Montreal stated that it would be hardly possible to have the first group of sheds, given out under the contract, completed by June 1, and that the second group could not possibly be finished in the time called for in the contract, namely, July 15, showing that in the fulfilment of the contract there was evident delay. And my hon. friend from Jacques Cartier( Mr. Monk) stated to this House a few days ago, he had reason to believe that that delay was owing to uncertainty as to whether the present plans would be continued or new plans adopted of an entirely different character.

These are the indications we have that the work of construction is at present being somewhat delayed in view of the uncertainty prevailing as to whether the original plans will he carried out in their entirety. I wish to more especially address my remarks to the members of the government, speaking as a representative of the commercial interests of Montreal. As such I sincerely trust that the government have no intention of reversing their previous decision. My right hou. friend, the first minister, will remember that when there was laid before this House on June 11, 1903, the estimate upon which this House voted $3,000,000 to he advanced to the Harbour Commissioners for the construction of steel sheds, it was distinctly specified that the sheds were to be two-story; and it was on that basis and on that estimate prepared by the Harbour Commissioners that this House concurred in the Bill empowering the government to advance

$3,000,000 to the Harbour Commissioners. TJhe subsequent Act, 3 Edward VII., c. 36, distinctly stipulates that the estimates, plans and specifications should be submitted to the Governor in Council and that before the work could be gone on with the approval of the Governor in Council was necessary. The commissioners, realizing how necessary it was that they should show good reason for the plans they might approve, actually took the entire summer in their preparation. Their engineer was occupied four months preparing these plans. He had made extensive studies, travelled through a number of cities, and finally produced his plans of two-story sheds. These were considered by the Harbour Commissioners at the end of September last, at meetings to which all parties interested were invited to be present. There were present representatives of the shipping, the Board of Trade, the Chambre de Commerce, the Corn Exchange and the Cartage companies, and in fact all those particularly interested in the Port of Montreal. The Harbour Commissioners, in a number of successive sittings, gave these interested parties a full hearing and finally decided to recommend two-story steel sheds, and this recommendation was sent to the government on or about November 1. The government also took careful steps before giving the approval required by law. The Minister of Public Works and the Minister of Marine and Fisheries went to Montreal and sat with the Harbour Commissioners and heard all the interested parties. On a subsequent occasion the Prime Minister himself, and one of his colleagues were present at a meeting of the Harbour Commissioners and again heard the representations of the parties interested. After keeping these plans nearly two months in Ottawa, after having them inspected by the engineer of the Department of Marine and Fisheries and an engineer of the Department of Public Works, these plans, on recommendation made by the Ministers of Fisheries and Public Works, were finally approved by Order in Council dated December 21,1903, and were duly signed and transmitted to the Harbour Commissioners. In due course the Commissioners called for tenders. It was stipulated in the Order in Council that the commissioners should not give out contracts without the approval of the Governor General in Council. Consequently when they decided to give a contract to Messrs. Peter Lyall & Co., it was sent to the government and ratified by it, so that the government stands absolutely pledged to the plan of two-story sheds. It was upon this basis that the money was voted, the Order in Council issued, and the contracts let for the 15 sheds to be finished at three different dates. It is therefore, to say the least, surprising that there should now be any question whatever as to whether these plans shall be adhered to. I wish to point out to the ministry that it will be a very serious matter for the Port of Montreal Mr. AMES.

and the shipping interests generally if the plans should be abandoned and replaced by plans for single-story sheds.

It must be remembered that the space available in the port of Montreal is comparatively limited. The upper harbour of Montreal, where the great bulk of the commerce is done, lies between St. Mary's current and the foot of the rapids below the bridge. It is necessary that this space should be utilized to the fullest possible extent. One of the jirincipal objects in adopting the two-story shed plan was that they might have, as it were, the double wharf space. Another advantage of the two-story sheds is that they will be able to keep the through freight and the package freight separate. The through freight is increasing in volume every year. The railway companies demand and require practically the entire surface of the wharf for their business. And it is proposed that the package freight shall be handled on the second story, leaving the first to the railways. There will be no clashing of interests, while there will be a saving of time, and a reduction to the minimum of danger to life and property. It is necessary to point out that the whole tendency throughout the large ports of the world is in the direction of two-story and even three-story sheds. I could name a dozen or fifteen of the large ports that have been equipped with two-story sheds and some even with those of three stories. And if the port of Montreal were restricted to sheds of one-story it would certainly greatly diminish its power to handle its incoming and outgoing freight. So, I sincerely trust the government wrill not go back on its previous decision. I admit that the plan of two-story sheds is not absolutely acceptable to all concerned. Some companies that have small ships coming to the port of Montreal, and some cartage companies that are afraid of the incline, prefer the one-story shed. But I would point out the fact that the tendency in the port of Montreal is to have larger ships year by year coming to do the business. In 1894 the average vessel that came to Montreal was 1,500 net tons ; in 1900, the average 2,000 net tons, and in 1904, 2,400 net tons. So, you will see there lias been an increase. within the decade of GO per cent in the net tonnage of the freightcarrying vessels. The average tonnage of an Allan liner is 6,645 tons gross; of a Dominion liner 7,117 gross, on the line that runs from Liverpool to Glasgow and 5,000 on the Antwerp line ; of the Canadian Pacific Railway liners 7,060 gross, and of the Reford liners 2,400 net or about 3,700 or 3,800 gross. I would point out that most of the objections to the two-story shed and most of the arguments in favour of the single-story shed come from those who are interested in the smaller boats. But there is ample provision for these boats in other portions of the harbour, and there is no need why they should claim to remain in that portion of the harbour

where two-story sheds should be built. And so I have moved for the return in the hope that the Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Prefontaine), speaking for the government, may take occasion to allay the anxiety that prevails amongst the commercial elements of the city of Montreal as to the possible change of front on the part of the government with reference to the two-story sheds in that port. X move for it also in the hope that, when this correspondence is brought down, we may find that this which I have cited simply means that the Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Prefontaine), with his usual courtesy, has opened a discussion with the interested parties, but with no intention whatever of changing the original decision at which the government has arrived.

lion. RAYMOND PREFONTAINE (Minister of Marine and Fisheries). X have much pleasure in stating at once that there is no objection whatever to the production of the papers. They will be laid on the table without delay. As regards the anxiety of which the hon. member (Mr. Ames) has spoken as existing among the business people of Montreal, I must admit that there is such anxiety. But it exists not on account of the one-story sheds but on account of the two-story sheds. That is the position in which the question stands at this moment. So far as the department is concerned, we approved of the two-story shed after a good deal of consideration by the different bodies of Montreal and by the Minister of Public Works as well as by the Minister of Marine and Fisheries. But it was discovered afterwards that the effect of having two-stories would not be to give the satisfaction that the shipping conference expected from this work. The shipping conference really represents the maritime interests of the port of Montreal. They unanimously began an agitation to l'.ave the plans remodelled. Their difficulty was that there were too many columns in the first story of the sheds and that these columns were too near together. They were set at about 15 feet centres. It was thought that the lower story or at least a part of it, would be practically useless by reason of the presence of these columns. The question of modifying the plans was referred to me as minister responsible for the execution of these works, of course, under the superintendence of the Harbour Commissioners of Montreal. I referred the- question to the engineer in charge appointed by the government. He had many conferences with the shipping federation, and he came to the conclusion that if the plans of two-story sheds were maintained, the difficulty caused by the too numerous columns could not be avoided, and there should be one-story sheds at least on those piers which were supposed to be used by the largest steamship companies. Mr. St. George prepared plans therefore, and showed that with the one-story shed and the absence of columns he could

get more space than with the two-story sheds. So, I might say with good reason that it is not a change of front on the part of anybody, but simply a change of the inside disposition of the sheds. As I am not an engineer, and am not supposed to know these things, I referred the whole matter not only to the shipping federation but to the Harbour Commissioners. That was as far back as November or December last. The construction has gone on since that time. The question has been decided whether the sheds are to be two-story or one-story. But the Harbour Commissioners have acknowledged through their chief engineer, that these columns which were supposed to be absolutely necessary to carry the second story are not necessary at all or at least one-third of them. On consulting a competent architect they have been given this advice. This consultation was by the Harbour Commissioners themselves. They did not consult the superintending engineer of the government, but consulted Mr. Marchand, a young architect of great talent, one who has had a great deal of experience and who is now directing the construction of some of the most important buildings in Montreal. The result was that I had a communication this morning from the Harbour Commissioners themselves, asking for a change of plan as regards the columns of the first story, which would involve a cost of $35,000, thereby admitting that the plans first made out were not what they should have been. I may repeat that this is not a question of two stories or of one story ; it makes practically no difference to the marine and shipping interests of Montreal whether there is one story or two stories. But they want one of the stories at least to be useful for the heavy freight they desire to bring into Montreal.

Now, as regards the assertion made by the hon. gentleman that it was only the owners of small steamers who were opposing the two story plan, quite the contrary is the fact. They want to get the most space possible in the first story, and if it was found impossible to do away with some of the pillars, then they want the shed to be reduced to one story. Others, including all the owners of the large steamers, are really discouraged, and the correspondence will show they stated in the most formal way that if the first story were to be constructed in that way it would be perfectly useless, and they would be driven from the port of Montreal. In face of such representations I think we were perfectly right in trying to conciliate the opposing views and bring them to an understanding. I must say that the shipping conference, when they approved of the original plan, did not notice, for one reason or another, how disadvantageous would be the first story with columns of about 15 feet centre. Of course if that objection had been discovered sooner, this discussion about taking away

some of the columns would not have arisen. I am quite sure that the question will be settled satisfactorily to the business men in Montreal and to the shipping federation especially, composed of those who are particularly interested in having the sheds made in such a way as to prove most advantageous to the port of Montreal.

The papers and all the correspondence will be laid before the House. But I am quite sure this is not the last time this subject will come before the House at "the present session, because other measures will be brought down which will permit a full discussion of the whole question. It is not an ordinary question. When I tell you, Mr. Speaker, that this question has been agitating the business men of Montreal for the last ten years, it is not strange that some difficulties and some misunderstandings should have arisen regarding the construction of these sheds. There will probably'be some difficulty until they are finished, which will not be for three or four years. But I do not think that anything has been done by the Harbour Commissioners or their officers, or by the government, in any way to jeopardize the usefulness and advantages to be derived from the construction of these sheds. .

Topic:   MONTREAL HARBOUR SHEDS.
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Motion agreed to.


CUSTOMS RULINGS RE DUMPING CLAUSES.

CON

Albert Edward Kemp

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. KEMP moved :

For copies of all circulars or instructions, regulations and rulings made by the Customs Department, together with any Orders in Council, relating to section 19 and subsections thereto of the Act to amend the Customs Tariff, If87, assented to August 10th, 1904, commonly known as the ' dumping clause.'

Topic:   CUSTOMS RULINGS RE DUMPING CLAUSES.
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LIB

William Paterson (Minister of Customs)

Liberal

Hon. WILLIAM PATERSON (Minister of Customs).

I suppose the hon. gentleman does not mean all the rulings, but only the general rulings under which the decisions are given.

Topic:   CUSTOMS RULINGS RE DUMPING CLAUSES.
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Motion agreed to.


INTERCOLONIAL RAILWAY-TRAIN SERVICE, N.S.

CON

Robert Laird Borden (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. R. L. BORDEN (Carleton, Out.).

Before the Orders of the Day are called, I would like to bring to the attention of the Minister of Railways and Canals (Mr. Em-merson), if he were here, a telegram which 1 received a few moments ago from a gentleman whom I well know :

Springhill Junction, N.S., Feb. 8, 1905.

Three trains stalled here for over 12 hours many passengers without food, please bring matter up in parliament.

I have discharged the gentleman's request by bringing the matter to the attention of the government. I had a somewhat Mr. PREFONTAINE.

similar experience myself, but I did not suppose it could be controlled, because the storm was very severe at the time. I trust the Prime Minister (Sir Wilfrid Laurler) will bring the matter to, the attention of the Minister of Railways and Canals, will send him over the telegram.

Topic:   INTERCOLONIAL RAILWAY-TRAIN SERVICE, N.S.
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February 8, 1905