August 9, 1904

CON

Haughton Lennox

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. LENNOX.

The hon. minister now gets away from the point he made a moment ago. He says that he was requested to refnove it by parties who promised to pay him, and then he says he is compelled to remove it. I ask him again what security the department has that the money that they have to pay out for the removal of this obstruction will be recouped ?

Mr. P R EiF O NT AI NEt, This is a rich company and- we have no doubt that the expense that will be incurred will be reimbursed to us. We will force them to reimburse it.

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CON

Haughton Lennox

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. LENNOX.

If the company is a rich company it has a right to do this work.

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LIB

Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine (Minister of Marine and Fisheries)

Liberal

Mr. PREFONTAINE.

The hon. gentleman does not seem to understand or I cannot make him understand. I will have to speak French to make myself understood or he will have to speak French. The law obliges us to remove obstructions to navigation. Whoever is responsible for the cost of the removal of these obstructions will have to pay it back if he is a person of any financial responsibility. Hon. gentlemen opposite cannot contest these two points : first, that we are responsible for the removal of a wreck, and second, that the party to whom the wreck belongs is responsible to the public for the cost.

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CON

John Graham Haggart

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HAGGART.

We deny that you are responsible to the public for the removal of a wreck in the harbour of Montreal. Where is your law ?

he may think fit, including the use of gunpowder or other explosive substance if he deems it advisable, and may cause such vessel, craft or its cargo or the material or thing causing or forming part of such obstruction to be conveyed to such place as he may think proper, and to be there sold by auction or otherwise as he may deem most advisable, and may apply the proceeds of such sale to make good the expenses incurred for the purposes aforesaid,-paying over any surplus of such proceeds to the owner or owners of the things sold, or other parties entitled to such proceeds or any part thereof, respectively.

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CON

John Graham Haggart

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HAGGART.

Does that apply to the harbour of Montreal ?

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LIB

Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine (Minister of Marine and Fisheries)

Liberal

Mr. PREFONTAINE.

Of course it does. Does the hon. gentleman say that this parliament has no control over the harbour of Montreal ? *

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CON

John Graham Haggart

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HAGGART.

The parliament of Canada has jurisdiction over everything, but we have parted with a portion of our jurisdiction and given it to the Harbour Commissioners. [DOT]

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CON

George William Fowler

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOWLER.

That section is merely permissive as far as the department is concerned. It says that the minister may do so and so, but it does not say that he shall do so. I think it is quite proper that he should remove these obstructions and make the people pay for them. I trust he will do so and that the person who is responsible will pay for it.

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CON

Haughton Lennox

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. LENNOX.

I submit that the proper method for the hon. minister to adopt is this : Any person who obstructs a navigable river is liable to indictment and is similarly responsible. The person who placed his obstruction in the river should be compelled to remove it. Action should be taken by the department to compel the party who is responsible to remove it. I will not go any further at present but I predict that we will find that we will have a great deal of difficulty, notwithstanding what the hon. minister has said, in recouping ourselves for this expenditure.

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CON

John Graham Haggart

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HAGGART.

Where is the Ostrell river in British Columbia ?

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LIB

Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine (Minister of Marine and Fisheries)

Liberal

Mr. PREFONTAINE.

The law is as follows :

Whenever in the opinion of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries the navigation of any river, lake, bay, creek, harbour, or other navigable water over which the jurisdiction of the parliament of Canada extends, is obstructed, impeded cfr rendered more difficult or dangerous by reason of the wreck, sinking or lying ashore or grounding, of any vessel or craft whatever, or of any part thereof or other thing, and whether the cause of such obstruction occurred before or after the passing of this Act,-then if such obstruction continues for more than twenty-four hours, the said minister may, under the authority of an order of the Governor in Council, cause the same to be removed or destroyed in such manner and by such means as 283J

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LIB

Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine (Minister of Marine and Fisheries)

Liberal

Mr. PREFONTAINE.

I do not remember exactly as I have not the file with me. It is a navigable river.

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CON

John Graham Haggart

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HAGGART.

Unless it is a navigable river and is under the jurisdiction of this parliament the provincial authorities should remove these obstructions.

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CON
LIB

Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine (Minister of Marine and Fisheries)

Liberal

Mr. PREFONTAINE.

Does the-hon. gentleman not know ? He is from British Columbia.

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CON

Thomas Earle

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. EARLE.

I do not know ; I never heard of it. I presume that before putting this item in the hon. minister would know where it was.

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LIB

Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine (Minister of Marine and Fisheries)

Liberal

Mr. PREFONTAINE.

I hare not the file here. I will give the information after recess.

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CON

Thomas Earle

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. EARLE.

Well we will allow the item to stand.

At one o'clock, committee took recess.

Committee resumed at three o'clock.

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LIB

Robert George Macpherson

Liberal

Mr. MACPHERSON.

When the House rose at one o'clock there was some discussion as to the location of the Hocsall river.

I may say that this river is known as the Hocsall and Ecstall, tout I believe the real name for it is the Hocsall. Possibly my hon. friend from Victoria (Mr. Hughes) would recognize it under tire euphonious name of Oxtail, which it is sometimes called. It rises above the head waters of the Kitimak river and flows north into the Skeena river, near the Balmoral cannery, just below Port Esslngton. About thirty-five miles from the mouth of the Hocsall is a tributary upon which there is a large lake, which is a favourite spawning ground for spring salmon. There is below the entrance of the lake a large log jamb, 200 feet long, 160 feet wide and 12 feet deep. I asked a report from a friend of mine, and he was strongly in favour of having that log jamb cleared out, because it makes it impossible for the spring salmon to get up to spawn, although a number of the fall salmon do get up. This is a very desirable expenditure of money.

To provide for the organization of a naval militia for Canada, $50,000.

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CON

John Graham Haggart

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HAGGART.

What do you want with this money when you did not get your Bill passed ?

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August 9, 1904