August 9, 1904

EXPORT OF LIVE STOCK TO UNITED STATES.

CON

Thomas Simpson Sproule

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. T. S. SPROULE.

Mr. Speaker, before you leave the chair, I wish to bring to the attention of the government and the House a question which I have been endeavouring to have discussed with the Minister of Agriculture ; but, owing to his multiplicity of engagements, he has been unable to give any attention to it lately, and I desire to deal with it before the House closes. It is in reference to an application either for a refund or an indemnity on account of customs duties paid by one F. H. Page, of Mission, British Columbia, upon horses that were Mr. BRODER.

exported from Canada to the United States upon the strength of a circular sent out by the Department of Agriculture, giving information as to the class of stock that might be imported into that country free of duty. He was told that an understanding had been reached between the Canadian government and the government at Washington that it would be to the mutual advantage of both countries to allow thoroughbred stock to be imported into each free of duty. As he desired to send some thoroughbred horses into the United States, he made inquiry as to what the regulations were, and he was sent the following circular :

Topic:   EXPORT OF LIVE STOCK TO UNITED STATES.
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EXPORTING PURE BRED STOCK TO THE UNITED STATES.


Breeders of pure bred stock, desirous of sending animals to the United States, frequently write me for information in regard to the regulations governing the importation of Canadian stock into that country. For the benefit of such breeders the following summary of these regulations is given :- 1. All animals imported into the United States from Canada must be accompanied by an affidavit made by thw owner or importer declaring clearly the purpose for which said animals are imported, viz.:-whether for breeding purposes, for milk production, for work, grazing, feeding or slaughter, whether they form part of settler's effects, or whether they are horses entered for temporary stay as provided by the regulations. Said affidavit must be presented to the collector of customs at the port of entry, who will decide whether the animals are entitled to entry under these regulations, and who will notify the inspector of the Bureau of Animal Industry in all cases where the regulations require an inspection to be made. 2. Horses-Horses for breeding, racing, show and sale purposes, for grazing or for work, must be inspected at the port of entry. 3. Cattle-Cattle for breeding purposes, milk production, grazing or feeding must be inspected, and must be accompanied by a certificate signed by a Canadian official veterinarian, stating that no contagious disease affecting cattle, excepting tuberculosis and actinomycosis, has existed in the district in which the cattle have been kept for six months prior to the-date of importation. The owner must present an affidavit that said certificate refers to the animals in question. [DOT] 4. A certificate for cattle over six months old for breeding purposes and for milch cows must also show that they have been submitted to the tuberculin test, and found free from tuberculosis, giving the date of testing, with a chart of reaction, and a description of the cattle with age and markings. 5. Any animals may be required to be, inspected at ' the port of entry, and any animal showing symptoms of tuberculosis may be subjected to the tuberculin test, upon instructions from the chief of the Bureau of Animal Industry. Sheep.-All sheep imported into the United States for breeding, grazing and feeding must be inspected and must be accompanied by a cer-tfficate signed by a Canadian official veterinarian, stating that no contagious disease affecting sheep has existed in the district in which the animals have been kept for six months prior to the date of importation. The owner or importer must also present an affidavit that the said certificate refers to the animals in question. 7. Swine.-All swine imported for breeding purposes, grazing or feeding shall be accompanied by an official veterinary certificate, stating that no contagious disease affecting swine has existed in the district in which the swine have been kept for six months preceding the date of importation, and the owner or importer must present an affidavit that said certificate applies to the animals in question. 8. Quarantine.-All cattle, sheep and swine for breeding purposes, grazing or feeding, when not accompanied by the required affidavits and certificates, must be detained in quarantine for one week at the expense of the owner or importer, under the supervision of the inspector in charge. Animals found to he free from disease at the end of this time will be released. 9. Transportation.-All cars used in the transportation of animals must be first thoroughly cleaned and then disinfected by whitewashing with a mixture of lime and carbolic acid before the animals are placed therein. Shippers must see that this is done before the animals are loaded, as unless these regulations are complied with the cars will not be admitted to the United States. The regulations of the Treasury Department of the United States direct as follows 10. Registration.-No animal for breeding purposes shall be admitted free of duty unless the importer furnishes a certificate of the record and pedigree in the form hereafter given, showing the animal to be pure bred and that it has been admitted to full registry in the American hook of record established for that breed, and that its sire and dam, and grand-sires and grand-dams were all recorded in a book of record established for the same breed. An affidavit by the owner, agent or importer that such animal is the identical animal described in the said certificate of record and pedigree, must be presented. Unless the certificate of record and pedigree is produced the animal shall be considered dutiable. In case such certificate is not at hand at the time of the arrival of the animals, duties shall be estimated thereon and deposited, and the animals delivered to the importer, who may within ten days file a written stipulation with the collector to produce the requisite certificate within six months from the date of entry ; whereupon final liquidation of the entry will be suspended until the production of the certificate or the expiration of the six months, Upon the production of the certificate in due form within six moiths from the date of entry, the amount deposited shall be refunded. Form of record and pedigree to be used for imported Animals :- Pedigree.. .. Sire. No Dam. No. . No .. ..No .... No. . Dam Dam, No. . Then follows the following certificate : trolled by this Association for the breed Sgd Dated at Sec'y of None of the Canadian stud, herd af flock books are recognized by the United States Government, and in order to secure free entry for breeding purposes, all animals must be registered in the American or European books of record.


F. W. HODSON.


Live Stock Commissioner. This Wias sent by F. W. Hodgson, representing the Department of Agriculture, to Mr. H. F. Page ; and Mr. Page, according to his own statement and the correspondence, seems to have accepted the allegations of the facts to be correct, and complied with all these requirements. He sent a consignment oif horses into the United States, expecting to have them accepted free of duty. But they were detained at the customs port, and he was obliged to deposit the duty, which he hoped to get hack. Then we have Mr. W. A. demons, secretary to the live stock commissioner, writing to Mr. Page in regard to it as follows : Ottawa, March 26th. Dear Sir,-Your favour of March 20th, also marked copy of ' The Ranch,' has been duly received. Mr. Hodson is absent from the office for. a few days. I am sure that he will take up this matter on his return and do what he can to assist you. It seems clear that you have a very decided cause for complaint against the United States customs authorities. Trouble of this sort frequently occurs in the case of customs officers not familiar with the laws regarding importation of pure bred breeding stock. Yours very truly, (Sgd.) W. A. CLEMONS, See. Live Stock Commissioner. Then we have another from Mr. F. W. Hodson : Ottawa, March 27th, 1902. H. F. Page, Esq. Mission, B. C. Dear Sir,-On my return to the office, I find yours of the 20th inst., awaiting reply, I have forwarded your letter, together with the copy of ' The Ranch ' to the Secretary of the Department and have asked him to take the matter up officially. If you have furnished us with all particulars the American customs officials have exceeded their duty, and there should not he any difficulty in having the matter arranged for you. Yours truly, (Sgd.) F. W. HODSON, Live Stock Commissioner. Then on June 27th we have another from Mr. Hodson, as follows : Ottawa, June 27th, 1902. I hereby certify that the above is a correct pedigree of No That this animal is pure bred and has been duly registered in the which is the book of record con- H. F. Page, Esq., Mission, B. C. Dear Sir,-Yours of June 20th received and contents noted. The claim now made by the



customs officer is most absurd. We are looking into the whole case very carefully, and will submit a history of it in detail to our Minister again, and will ask him to take the matter up. I am also writing the Hon. John Dryden, Minister of Agriculture for Ontario, who is deeply interested in matters of this sort, and am asking him to co-operate with us. I am writing to each of the Agricultural Departments throughout Canada stating the facts of the case, and will send a letter to each of the Canadian newspapers, and to the ' Breeder's Gazette ' in Chicago dealing with the question. Yours truly, (Sgd.) F. W. HODSON, ' Live Stock Commissioner. Then we have another from Mr. Hod-son, dated Ottawa, July 28th, 1902 : H. F. Page, Esq., Mission, B.C. Dear Sir.-Please find inclosed a copy of two letters which I have Just received from the Hon. Mr. Dryden. I am doing all I can to help you and am bringing a great deal of influence to bear both in the United States and Canada, and have written over eight hundred persons and newspaper men in both places. I let you know this, not because I wish you to give me credit for the work, but to let you see that this department is not idle when the interests of Canadians are concerned. Mr. Fisher is also doing what he can, and we have made an appeal to the department at Washington, through the British Colonial Office as well as directly through this government. Mr. Sanders you will recognize as the editor and owner of the ' Breeders' Gazette,' Chicago, which paper you are no doubt acquainted with. He is probably the most influential live stock man in Canada or America. Mr. John Dryden is Minister of Agriculture for the province of Ontario, and a very prominent live stock man. Yours very truly, (Sgd.) F. W. HODSON, Live Stock Commissioner. Enc. copy of two letters. We have following Mr. Dryden's letter addressed to Mr. Hodson : Copy. Toronto, July 14th, 1902. Dear Hodson,-Referring to the difficulty with the Washington authorities about the introduction of pure bred animals into that territory, I would say that a similar ease was fought out some fifteen years ago. This was a case of horses, and the ruling at that time was definite that it was not necessary that the man who received them would be a breeder. It seems to me it would be worth while to hunt that up if possible. I am writing Mr. Saunders, of the * Breeders' Gazette,' who has always been for freedom of trade in these matters. They would know as to the case. Yours very tiuly, (Sgd.) JOHN DRYDEN. F. W. Hodson, Esq., Dom. Live Stock Commissioner, Ottawa. It seems that the contention was set up by the Washington authorities that the man who received these horses must be a breed-Mr. SPROULE. er and intended to use them for breeding purposes. Then we have the reply of Mr. Saunders, the editor of the ' Breeders' Gazette.' Mr. Dryden wrote Mr. Hodson : I inclose a letter just received from Mr. Saunders, of the ' Breeders' .Gazette,' which will explain itself. You will see the strong ground he takes, and I assume the matter will be arranged in that direction.. Yours very truly, (Sgd.) JOHN DRYDEN. Mr. Saunders' letter is as follows : Chicago, July 18th, 1902. Hon. John Dryden, Toronto. Dear Mr. Dryden,-I have yours of the 14th and note contents. I cannot imagine how any United States' collector could make such a ruling as that mentioned in the face of the practice of the Department for so many years. I do not imagine there can be any overturning of the prevailing interpretation of the Act. However X will write a personal letter to Secretary Wilson and endeavour to ascertain what it is. Respectfully yours, (Sgd.) A. H. SANDERS. Then we have another from Mr. Hodson regarding the correspondence addressed to H. F. Page, Ottawa, August 25th : H. F. Page, Mission, B. C. My dear ^ Sir,-The copy of correspondence which you sent me is rather startling. This looks to me more like a hold up than anything I have ever seen, howevei*, I may be mistaken. I have forwarded your correspondence to the Deputy Minister of Agriculture, who is a lawyer and have asked him to look into the matter and write you at once. I see no reason why the entire $1,000 should not be returned to you. We are making it an international question. Yours very truly, (Sgd.) F. W. HODSON. Live Stock Commissioner. There is another from Mr. Hodson, drawing his attention to a letter received from the Deputy Minister of Agriculture, as follows : H F. Page, Mission, B. C. Dear Mr. Page,-Please find inclosed a copy of a letter which I have to-day received from the Deputy Minister of Agriculture. As soon as I hear from him again I will write you, probably Mr. O'Halloran will himself write you. Yours very truly, (Sgd.) F. W. HODSON, Live Stock Commissioner. This is the letter which he referred to from the Deputy Minister of Agriculture : F. W. Hodson, Esq., Live Stock Commissioner, Department of Agriculture. Dear Mr. Hodson,-I have your letter of the 26th inst., inclosing some correspondence in connection with the claim of H. F. Page, Mission, fi, B. C., for tlie refund of the deposit made by him with the United States Customs authorities with entry for certain Pereheron horses which he was importing into the United States for breeding purposes, from which it appears that Mr. Page wishes your views as to the advisability of retaining a lawyer in New York to prosecute his claim. From the minister's file in this matter, to which you refer me, I find that the Secretary of State here in June last made, on behalf of Mr. Page, a claim against the United States for a refund of this deposit which claim is still pending. I think it would be very unwise for Mr. Page to prosecute his claim through a lawyer while the claim made by the Secretary of State is pending. I understand that the minister will be here to-morrow and I would like to retain your file until then to lay the matter before him. Yours very truly, (Sgd.) GEO. F. O'HALLORAN, Dep. Minister of Agriculture. The next is a letter to Mr. Hodson from Mr. O'Halloran, in which he says : I have to-day seen the Under Secretary of State who promises to write the British Embassy to urge the American authorities to give an early decision on the claim made on Mr. Page's behalf by the Secretary of State. There is a letter from Mr. Hodson which X need not read. Then there is another to Mr. Page from the Deputy Minister of Agriculture : Deputy Minister's Office, November 29th, 1902. Sir,-In further reference to correspondence between you and this department regarding a claim made by you, against the United States government, for a refund of the deposit made by you with an entry of certain Pereheron horses into the United States, in October, 1901, I have to state that the Department of State here have urged the government authorities at Washington to take action in your case, but as yet no further communication in the matter has been received. I inclose herewith extracts from the United States customs regulations bearing upon the entry of pure bred stock. I understand that in making entry you complied with the provisions of article 473 and 541. I have the honour to be, sir, Your obedient servant, (Sgd.) GEO. F. O'HALLORAN, Deputy Minister of Agriculture. A. F. Page, Esq., Mission, B.C. This is the memo, of the United States authorities : Memo, re claim of H. F. Page, of Mission, B.C., for remission of duty paid by him to the United States customs for entry of Pereheron horses in October, 1901. United States Customs Act of July 24th, 1897, item 220, reads : Horses and mules valued at $150 or less per head, $30 per head ; if valued at over $150, 25 per cent ad valorem. Article 473 of United States customs regulations reads : Any animal imported specially for breeding purposes shall be admitted free ; provided, that no such animal shall be admitted free unless pure bred of a recognized breed, and duly registered in the book of record established for that breed ; and provided further, that certificates of such record and of the pedigree of such animal shall be produced and submitted to the customs officer duly authenticated by the proper custodian of such book of record, together with the affidavit of the owner, agent or importer that such animal is the identical animal described in said certificate of record, and pedigree ; and provided further, that the Secretary of Agriculture shall determine and certify to the Secretary of the Treasury what are recognized breeds and pure bred animals under the provisions of this paragraph. The Secretary of the Treasury may prescribe such additional regulations as may be required for the strict enforcement of this provision. Article 541 reads : No animal imported for breeding purposes shall be admitted free of duty unless the importer furnishes a certificate of the record and pedigree showing that the animal is pure bred and has been admitted to full registry in the book of record established for that breed, and that its sire and dam and grand sires and grand dams were all recorded in a book of record established for the same breed. An affidavit by the owner, agent or importer, that such animal is the identical animal described in said certificate of record and pedigree, must be presented. Article 543 reads : In case such certificate is not at hand at the time of the arrival of the animals, duties should be estimated thereon and deposited, and the animals delivered to the importer, who may within ten days file a written stipulation with the collector to produce the requisite certificate within six months from date of entry, whereupon final liquidation of the entry will be suspended until the production of the certificate or the expiration of the six months. Upon the production of the requisite certificate in due form within six months from entry, the amount deposited shall be refunded as an excess of deposit. Certificate of pedigree should be returned to the importer and requisite copies be retained for the files of the custom house. There is a letter from the Customs Department at Puget Sound : Customs District of Puget Sound, Sub-port of Sumas, Wash., Deputy Collector's Office, December 30th, 1902. H. F. Page, Esq., Mission, B.C. Dear Sir,-The decision of the general appraisers in answer to your protest against the liquidation of consumption entry No. 177K has been received at this office. You can see the same by calling at this office. The board holds that the horses were dutiable. Respectfully,


S. P. CONNER,


Deputy Collector. There is another letter from W. H. Bogle to H. F. Page : Seattle, Wash., January 6th,1903. Mr. H. F. Page, Mission Junction, B.C. Dear Sir,-I have just received a report from Mr. Gibson, in New York, informing me that the board of the United States General Treas-



urers, have decided to protest against you. I inclose you Mr. Gihson's letter to Dow. Since then I have seen the opinion rendered by the board, reported in the Treasury decisions. They hold broadly that animals cannot be imported for breeding purposes so as to be tree of duty except by the man who intends to use them for that purpose. If they are imported for sale to breeders, they are subject to duty. Yours very truly,


W. H. BOGLE.


In answer to that I have before me a copy of the ' Breeders' Gazette,' giving a notice of the pure bred animals sent into the United States by the W. C. Edwards Company, of Rockland, Hon. M. H. Cochrane, Hillhurst, and Hon. John Dryden, Brooklyn, all for the purpose of being sold at public auction, with a cut of one of the animals Lady Clara, and giving an account of the sale'that took place by public auction. So it cannot be contended that the purchasers purchased them in Canada and imported them for breeding purposes ; the animals were exported to Chicago directly by the breeders in Canada and sold by auction as pure bred animals. No question was raised whether the purchasers intended to use them for breeding purposes or otherwise. So, this shows that Mr. Page complied strictly with the provisions of the law, and that the contention against him could not be justified if it was looked into. Then X have another letter from Mr. O'Halloran, Deputy Minister of Agriculture to Mr. Page stating, that: His Excellency the Governor General has been advised from Washington that the board of general appraisers have been requested by the Secretary of the Treasury to give attention to your case, and a prompt reply is anticipated, which will be transmitted without delay through His Majesty's ambassador at Washington, to His Excellency here. There is another communication from Mr. O'Halloran, the Deputy Minister of Agriculture, in which the writer says : Referring to your claim against the United States government for a refund of duty made on entry of Percheron horses in October, 1901, concerning which I wrote you on the 10th instant, I am now able to inform you that His Excellency the Governor General has received a despatch from His Majesty's ambassador at Washington to the effect that the board of appraisers have sustained the action of the collector of customs of Sumas, and that, therefore, your claim cannot be entertained. The board of appraisers have held that in view of your own statements of the advertisements of your horses for sale before they went into the United States, and of your immediate sale there of some of them, they could not be regarded as having been imported specially for breeding purposes, but as having been imported for the purpose of sale. The fact that they were pure bred horses could not affect the purpose for which they were imported, nor the intent of the importer. It was held to he immaterial whether you intended that the purchasers of your horses should use them for breeding Mr. SPROULE. purposes or for other purposes ; it was held that you had not intended them for that purpose, but for sale. I have already drawn attention to the fact that these other cattle were advertised in the United States before they were sent from Canada to be sold by public auction in Chicago. Mr. Page did the same thing, advertising the horses as thoroughbred Percheron horses to be sold for breeding purposes, and be did sell them for breeding purposes, but now, it is held that be is not entitled to a rebate of duty. Now, I have a letter from Messrs. Eicher & Wilson, who control the celebrated stock paper in Iowa, addressed to Mr. Page : Washington, Iowa, March 2nd, 1903. H. F. Page, Mission City, B.C., Dear Sir,-We have your favour of February 20th, and are under obligation to you for the courteous treatment we have received at your hands. The ' Breeders' Gazette ' had not exposed this matter because its management know nothing about the pendency of the case. Mr. A. H. Sanders was with me when I "was handed by the custom house officers the opinion of the hoard of appraisers and it was as much of a surprise to him as it was to me. Instead of the ' Gazette ' neglecting its duty, it occurs to me you should have advised the ' Gazette ' and it would have been a favour to the * Gazette ' to have heard from you. We do not think that any of our members knew of the pendency of your action until the decision was announced by the board. We felt then the construction by the board of appraisers was wrong, and the law as then formed did not contemplate the payment of duties on animals simply because they would be sold for breeding purposes. We were so confident of it that we advised our society to pay no attention to congressional amendment. As to this congressional amendment, I may explain that there bad been other cases of a somewhat similar character and the parties interested bad applied to Congress to amend the law so that they could get the duty refunded. -but simply provide for the appeal and speedy submission of this cause, and we made all arrangements with the different departments for such purpose and did not have the least idea that the importer or his attorney would object to the appeal of the case by us for such purpose. We were surprised when Gibson changed his view and we met the obstacle in him, all of you fully understand by the correspondence that has passed between us. We then resorted to congressional relief which of course made it more expensive upon us. We did not have time to institute another action from the beginning before the hoard of appraisers and rely upon the hearing in the Circuit Court of New York. We were liable to he delayed a year there in the submission, so congressional relief, though more expensive, was the next best thing to the submission of your case. A Bill giving us the desired relief for the future has passed both Houses of Congress and will become a law, but by amendments imposed upon the Bill during its passage, it operates only in favour of citizens of the United States and provides for the refund of duties that have been collected to such citizens. This congressional action within itself may not be sufficient to recover your money and the submission of your case may be required in the courts. We still regret the result of our relations with Mr. Gibson mostly because we are so confident that the court would have given us the same relief and we could have had it over before this time with less trouble and expense, and have had an order for the refund of your money at the same time, but we could not depend Upon such a condition, as we sent parties personnally to see Mr. Gibson, in New York, and he flatly refused to permit us to take any action and said that it might be a year or more before he would want the case submitted. Regretting that your case is not disposed of and thanking you for the courtesy of yourself individually in this matter, we are, Respectfully yours, EICHER & WILSON. We have then the correspondence of Sir Charles Tupper on this subject with the Hon. Mr. Fielding, during the absence of the Minister of Agriculture in Japan. I need not read that correspondence, it practically goes over the same ground. Suffice it to say, that I have shown that at the present time Mr. rage has no redress. What are the grounds upon which they refused him redress? The grounds are, first, because these horses were not imported by citizens of the United States. In answer to that, I refer to the fact that the ' Breeders' Gazette,' of Chicago contains an account of the sale of pure bred animals sent by different parties whose names I have given, W. C. Edwards & Co., Cochrane <& Co. and other breeders in Canada, who sent their stock there, advertised for sale by public auction at a stock sale in Chicago, long before they went there. They were exported by Canadians for the purpose of sale, pure bred animals that were purchased by Americans without any agreement entered into by the seller and the buyer that they were for the improvement of stock or for breeding purposes ; and no objection was raised and no duty was paid on them. Therefore, on the same principle, we claim that Mr. H. F. Page, in sending a consignment of thoroughbred Percheron horses, pedigreed, registered and all, complied with all the requirements, and that he was entitled to a refund of that duty. It seems that nothing more has been done by the department since with the authorities at Washington, there is nothing in the correspondence that indicates that the question has been closed between the Canadian government and the department at Washington. Now what I respectfully submit is this, that Mr. Page was misled by the instructions sent out from the Department of Agriculture here by Mr. Hodson the stock commissioner, on which instructions Mr. Page acted in sending his stock into the United States, and in consequence of which he is mulcted in the sum of $1,075. If that is not refunded to him, I submit that this government should put an item in the estimates to recoup Mr. Page for the loss he has iDcurrred through information that was not correct, or at least, which misled him. I do not think that a member of this House would object to such a thing being done. He has been badly used, and he is helpless ; the representations to Washington of the Department of Agriculture, or the Canadian government, through the Governor General, have eventuated in nothing. The government. might take this case up and go into the courts of the United States to endeavour to secure a return of this money. If they failed in their representations to Washington to secure a refund of this money, I submit that they should put an item in the estimates to reimburse Mr. Page. I wish the government to remember that I do not bring this case up complaining at what the Department of Agriculture has done, or saying that they have done wrong, becaute-it seems to me they have made a commendable effort to get satisfaction ; but it seema to be oue of those cases that drag on from time to time until it is Anally dropped.


LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Hon. SYDNEY FISHER (Minister of Agriculture).

My hon. friend had spoken tome about this matter, and I informed him that it has been gone into very carefully by the department, with the utmost sympathy for Mr. Page, but that the response which the government of Canada received from the United States through the ordinary channels of the imperial and colonial office, was such that we felt that it was useless to make any further representations to the authorities at Washington. The hon. gentleman's suggestion that parliament should vote a sum of money to reimburse Mr. Page has also been considered by us, although the question was not considered in any light of responsibility on the Department of Agriculture or of this government. I venture to think that the information supplied to Mr. Page by the department involved no responsibility on the part of the department.

Topic:   W. H. BOGLE.
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CON

Thomas Simpson Sproule

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SPROULE.

I did not say that. I merely put forth a claim in equity.

Topic:   W. H. BOGLE.
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LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

I understand that my hon. friend does not consider that he has any legal claim, it would be a matter more of grace than of law. But it is a question which might well be considered. The whole question turns on the interpretation by the United States of their own law. The information which was supplied to Mr. Page by an officer in my department was merely a recapitulation of their customs law upon the question as to the entry free of duty of thoroughbred stock. My hon. friend baa

quoted an article from the ' Breeders' Gazette ' of Chicago, which shows that that great live stock paper in Chicago had exactly the same Impression of the law of the United States that was given to Mr. Page, and that Mr. Page himself got from reading the extracts from the American law which were put before him. I do not wonder at it at all, because that interpretation had been the practice of the United States customs authorities for many years. The circumstances quoted by the ' Breeders' Gazette ' of the sale by Messrs. Edwards, Cochrane, Cargill and Flatt, I think it was, who sent over stock to the United States for sale, was exactly on all fours with this case of Mr. Page. It occurred only a little while before, and it was only one of many such instances. The United States authorities have always interpreted their own laws in that way, namely, that animals going into the United States intended eventually for breeding purposes should be allowed in free of duty when accompanied by proper certificates, and the question as to whether they might be sold before being used for breeding purposes, to parties in the United States, never seems to have been considered, or if it was considered, it was decided that there was no impediment to their coming in free of duty.

Mr. Page unfortunately met a customs officer who interpreted the law differently. He insisted on the payment of duty and the dispute was referred to the highest tribunal of the treasury at Washington. That tribunal decided that as these animals had come in for sale before they were to be used for breeding, the duty must be paid. That decision was a surprise not only to Mr. Page but to all American breeders and livestock owners. It was the first time the law was so interpreted. The decision, however, was one which could not be overcome except by appeal to the Supreme Court. If this case had been brought to the Supreme Court, it is quite possible that court would have reversed the decision ; but for reasons explained in the correspondence it was not taken to appeal. When we made representations to the United States, the reply was that the decision of the treasury could not be altered and that under the United States law no compensation could be given without a special vote of Congress and such a vote the department was not prepared to propose. They pointed out that an amendment had been made to the law but unfortunately that amendment only gives relief to the United States citizens. It was made at the instance of the United States citizens for their own benefit. The whole course of the United States administration has been of late years to put more and more obstacles in the way of such interchange. This amendment to their law is another Mr. FISHER.

instance of that policy. It is to the effect that if United States citizens import animals, these animals shall come in free of duty when thoroughbreds, even if for sale and not for breeding purposes, but it gives no relief to Mr. Page or any other Canadian breeder or citizen. The amendment even went so far as to provide that the duties to be paid by Americans should be refunded them. The course which the United States authorities have followed they have a perfect right to take, but it seems to me a short sighted and unfriendly legislation on the part of that great people. Under these circumstances I see no prospect of relief at all for Mr. Page from the United States. Mr. rage has suffered most unfairly, and I have the greatest sympathy for him. He acted in good faith on what he knew to be the interpretation by the Americans of the law up to that time. The only possible question which can now arise would be whether this parliament should grant him some compensation. That however, "would seem to me a little out of the course which we ought to pursue in dealing with public matters.

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CON
LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

Certainly. I have no hesitation in saying that I would consider the matter very carefully and if my colleagues will agree I would not offer any objection to putting an item in the estimates. I consider that Mr. Page deserves the sympathy of every Canadian.

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CON
LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

I would recommend it as a matter of grace and favour to a man who was very unfairly and unjustly treated. At the same time as the instance occurred with regard to the government of a foreign country. it might be dangerous for us to establish a precedent of that kind by passing an item in the estimates. I can assure my hon. friend that the department and the government through the Secretary of State, made every representation possible to the Washington authorities. I would say further that had not the final reply of the Washington authorities been so very positive, I would have been glad to go on and press the matter, but there is a point at which the self-respect of the Canadian people must lead them to cease dealing with a foreign country when it shows no disposition to meet their views.

Topic:   W. H. BOGLE.
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CLAIM OF MR. JOHN CAMPBELL.

August 9, 1904