August 6, 1904

?

Mr. PORTER .@

They are supplying it in Belleville to one concern that I know of, at $13 per horse-power, and I am told by the same man who is receiving that power from the development on the Trent Valley canal at $13 that he formerly paid $23 per horsepower for power furnished him by steam. This revenue that is being derived from the water-power already developed would be very largely increased and I have no doubt, in fact I am informed by those who have given the matter careful study, that the price at which power is now being supplied in Belleville. $13, could be very materially decreased if the corporations who are interested in this matter along the line of the Trent Valley water-way, were allowed to develop the water-power that exists there. If I am correctly informed that cannot be done under existing circumstances. 1 am informed that the government some time ago expropriated all the lands along the line of that Trent water-way and all the water-power for the purposes of this canal, so that an individual or a corporation going in there and desiring-as one corporation that I know of, the Trent Electric and Water Company, desires-to develop greater water-power would not be able to do that without the sanction of the government. We can all readily see that it would not be the policy of the government, if it has in contem-Mr. PORTER.

plation the completion of this canal, to allow private individuals to acquire the right to develop water-power upon that route, because it would, as every one sees, create rights, which might upon the determination of the government to push this canal scheme through, involve the government in a very large expenditure of money to buy up rights that had been so acquired. Just in that connection, let me point out that it seems to me most unfair- and this is one of the strongest arguments, parliaps, that I can urge upon the government to be more energetic in building the Trent Valley canal-that this immense water-power is practically tied up there. I am told upon very good authority that if the government were willing to-day to abandon this project and give it over to private enterprise, there is any amount of capital ready and waiting to go into the enterprise, and develop it not only for. the purposes of the canal, but simply for the revenue that would be derived from the water-power. It seems to me that it is a dog-in-the-manger policy on the part of the government to refuse to private individuals or to corporations the right to develop this power and yet not go on and develop it themselves. What I have said in regard to the development of power in Trenton, is perfectly true in regard to the village of Frankford, the village of Campbellford, the town of Hastings, the city of Peterborough, and all the other towns and villages along the line of this Trent water-way. The development of cheap power is desired by all for the promotion of manufacturing industries. I have taken pains to ascertain some of the facts concerning the development of water-power, I find that on the portion of the canal from Peterborough to Trenton, that is, merely the southern portion of the canal, it has been carefully estimated that

100,000 horse-power could be developed. If that is so, the lease of such an extent of water-power would furnish a more than handsome return on all the money that would be required to be spent by this country in the completion of the canal. Let me refer to some further remarks in this connection by Mr. Gilmour. In summarizing his investigation he says :

Trent canal route is some 1,454 miles shorter to Liverpool and return and to the European markets than the Erie canal, and over 500 miles shorter than our present St. Lawrence canals that actually captured a good part of the American trade this year, .1903.

He emphasizes what I have already pointed out to this House, that by reason of the Erie canal not being able to compete with the improved conditions of the railways the Erie Canal lost the control of the traffic and the railways captured it. That traffic which was then being captured by the railways- Mr. Gilmour does not say so but it is the fact-by reason of the policy inaugurated

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by the Liberal-Conservative party in enlarging the canal system of Canada has been largely acquired by Canada.

The most economical barges, carefully figured out for cheapest carrying capacity, of the tn-larged Brie canal have a capacity of about 33,333 bushels each barge. Trent canal barge capacity, each barge 25,000 bushels and can easily increase or double canal if wanted.

The whole American and Canadian grain trade adjacent to the Great Lakes would be at the command of the Trent canal when completed on account of its shortness and cheap carrying capacity to large European markets, and could be absolutely contracted for when canal is completed in spite of anything that can be done by any other route.

Safety of Trent canal is assured as it is all inland water from Midland on the Georgian bay to Montreal and Quebec and no objections to open lake same as Erie canal had in discussing advantages that might be had in their using Lake Ontario.

Barges with independent propelling power can easily be used for local trade going and coming, and the whole length of canal and St. Lawrence route stopping at any and all towns and villages, afterwards joining through towing fleets.

Now, let me for a moment refer to the evidence of another eminent gentleman who has given this matter very careful consideration and who, I venture to say has given that consideration under the direction of this government of which he is an employee. I refer to the statement of Mr. It. B. Rogers, C.E., He says :

The estimated cost of transhipping at Midland is from I to h cent per bushel. The depth of water in the water-way when completed will be 8 feet 4 inches. The present barges on the Erie canal are about one-third the capacity of those intended for use on the Trent. The distance from Georgian Bay to Trentotn will be about 200 miles, of which only about one-tenth of this distance will be actual canal. The Erie canal is about 352 miles long from Buffalo to Albany, about all of which distance is actual canal, and 150 miles of river navigation from Albany to New York. In comparing the length of time required to go from Midland to Montreal, and from Buffalo to New York, many different points have to be taken into consideration-but a single steam barge from Midland to Montreal would take 69 hours, and from Buffalo to New York, the Erie canal about double this time. Regarding freight rates by rail or by water of course the rate on the Trent canal can only be arrived at by comparison with the rates on other barge canals, for instance on the Erie canal. The distance from Midland to tide-water at Montreal is 445 miles. From Buffalo to tide-water at New York is 503 miles. Freight is delivered now at Midland from the western ports at 1 cent per bushel, and at Buffalo at 1'42 to 2 cents per bushel. By the new Erie canal, Major Symonds, who is perhaps the most expert barge engineer in the United States, calculates that wheat can be taken from Buffalo to New York at 8-10 of one cent per bushel. Now if they can do that on the new Erie we can do it on the Trent canal, being, as I hav mntioned above, a water-waj', not a canal. This 8-10 of a cent added to the

1 cent rate to Midland and J cent for transhipping charges will make a rate of 2'3 cents from the western ports to Montreal. Rates from western ports to Montreal via Depot Harbour 5 cents, via Midland 5 to 6 cents. Rates from western ports to New York via Buffalo by water and rail 6| to 7 cents ; by water about 5i cents..

Regarding the difference in distance from Port Arthur to Liverpool, that via" the Trent canal is 757 miles shorter than via the Erie canal, which on the return trip amounts to 1,514 miles.

I repeat that no one can consider the evidence of these eminent men, one of them an engineer in the employ of the government, and fail to realize the very great advantage that Canada has, if she will only use it by the improvement of the Trent ivater-way, over any means of transportation that the United States can offer against us. Besides the Important advantages which will accrue to the Dominion as a whole through the completion of the Trent Valley canal there are very many other advantages that will accrue to the cities, towns, villages, municipalities and individuals directly affected, by providing cheap freight rates.

It is estimated that to fully complete this section of the canal, including what has already been expended by previous governments and by this government will cost about $10,000,000, which at ordinary rate of interest, 3 per cent, would' involve an annual charge of about $300,000. Now, as to the revenue from power. I am 'confining my presentation of this part of the case to that portion of the canal between Peterborough and the Bay of Quints, and it has been shown beyond any reasonable doubt that at least 100,000 horse-power can be got between these two points. The income derived from this hundred thousand horse-power sold or leased at the rate that it would be hound to command, would pay not only the interest upon the total investment of $10,000,000 necessary to complete the canal but it would be sufficient to provide a sinking fund that in a very few years would wipe out the capital expenditure upon: this whole enterprise.

Suppose this hundred thousand horsepower sold at $13 per horse-power, a rate at which it is being sold between Trenton and Belleville, any hon. gentleman can see that it will not only pay interest upon the investment but that it will provide a sinikng fund that in a few years will wipe out the whole obligation. But, that is only part of the possible revenue.

Take it from Peterborough to Midland; the water-power, if developed all along the r,bute, would increase the revenue of the government from day to day and year to year and enable them to pay off the capital expenditure entailed by the completion of this canal very much earlier than the date that I have shown by the figures that I have given. There is another very great advantage that it occurs to me would accrue to the people by the completion of

this water-way, perhaps it is one of its most important results and that is the competition that will be created between transportation by means of water and, transportation by means of the railways. As I have already taken occasion to remark, I do not think that any question exists to-day in the mind of any man who has given the matter study but what transportation by water is really the regulating power or regulator so to speak of the rates that will be charged on railways. Railways now charge the very highest rate that commerce can endure and live and the construction of this canal would have a very important bearing upon this important proposition. The limit of rates for transportation would then be regulated or controlled by the cost of transportation by this water route, and every shipper would derive permanent relief and protection against railway monopoly. A very small saving per ton per mile when we consider the immense quantities of trade that will be carried over this route and the saving in distance will amount to a sum that is almost inconceivable. If one would sit down and figure it out the saving in distance and freight would be simply enormous and it is one of the reasons which to my mind should appeal to the government to lay down at this time a definite and positive policy and energically enter upon the carrying out of that policy for the advantage of the people of Canada. Last year 28,000,000 bushels of grain were shipped to Midland and Depot Harbour and this would be very largely increased by the development of the western country and by the attraction of cheap transportation by means of this water-way. It is to my mind impossible to adequately conceive what the extent of that growth will be. The freight carried from points along the route of this canal already assumes very large proportions. Peterborough last year alone shipped in and out by rail over

290.000 tons of freight, Campbellford over

36.000 tons, Trenton over 100,000 tons, Hastings, Lakefield, Bobcaygeon, Fenelon Falls, Cambridge, Barrie, Orillia and other smaller towns and villages along the line shipped freight in proportion and all of these figures are sure to increase, and the trade is of proportionate advantage to the people resident in these particular districts. Added to these facts that by the Trent Valley waterway to Liverpool there would be absolute saving in distance of over 1,500 miles, that being the difference in distance in favour of this route as against any other route either through Canada or the United States, I think one cannot fail to see the many jgreat and permanent advantages to the people of Canada to be derived from putting into useful form this natural water-way ; nor can any man doubt that to allow local political or sectional difficulties to impede the construction of this great work would justly merit the condemnation of the Canadian people. So far I have endea-

Topic:   SUPPLY-TRENT VALLEY CANAL.
Subtopic:   TRENTON-FRANKFORD SECTION.
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CON

Edward Guss Porter

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. PORTER.

voured to deal with those features in connection with this proposition upon which I think all parties are practically agreed. There are differences that exist, but these differences I venture to say, are purely local and caused by sectional interest which one party or the other may have in this enterprise.

In the early part of this session the Minister of Finance announced that he had a magnificent surplus, and seeing the advantages which the country as a whole will derive from the development of this waterway, it appears to me that the Minister of Finance could not do better than to recommend that a certain portion of that surplus of which he boasts should be applied to the carrying out of this work. Differences exist as to the plan of this undertaking, but these differences do not in any manner detract from the principle which I advocate, namely, the completion of the Trent Valley water-way. It is contended by my hon. friend from Bast Durham (Mr. Ward) that the southern terminus should be at the town of Port Hope, while I contend that the southern terminus should be at the town of Trenton. In view of such difference of opinion, the sound principle to adopt would be to follow the expert testimony of a competent person who has studied all the evidence that can be supplied, both for and against either of the routes mentioned. I think, in view of what has occurred in the past, the House will have no hesitation in arriving at the conclusion that Trenton is the natural and proper outlet of this great water-way. In the determination of a matter of this kind, the cost of construction and maintenance should not be the sole consideration ; utility and the advantages to be derived by the country generally should control the action of the government. There have already been several surveys made of the two routes by engineers appointed by the present and by the previous government. Owing to the pressure brought to bear upon the present government by those who are in favour of the Port Hope terminus, the government saw fit to appoint Mr. McLeod, an engineer of the most eminent respectability and ability, to investigate all the reports, surveys and estimates that had been made by pre vious engineers. Mr. McLeod had placed in his hands all this data furnished from the time that Mr. Maingy, under the British government, made his first report. Mr. Me Leod went over the route, and after a most careful investigation of the whole situation, and a thorough consideration of the benefits that might be derived, not only by the two towns more particularly interested, but by the country at large, he made his report. After Mr. McLeod had made his report, the assertion was made from the town of Port Hope that that gentleman, in making his report, was actuated by some ulterior motive, and did not report in accordance with the time facts. Knowing, as most of

us do the eminent respectability and ability of Mr. McLeod, we know it is an unworthy insinuation for any one to make. Mr. McLeod is a gentleman in whom I have the utmost confidence. He is a gentleman in whom the government has placed their confidence, and there is no doubt that he reported impartially and according to his honest convictions. Mr. McLeod's report is very lengthy, and I shall summarize it. He says :

From the examination made, it would appear that there is little difference in the cost of either route-the estimates show a difference of $144,537 in favour of the Port Hope route.

The difficulty of navigating Lake Ontario with canal boats in stormy weather is a serious objection to the Port Hope route.

The>

material for canal construction is better on the Trenton route, and the deep cutting on the Port Hope section is avoided by adopting the river route.

The diversion of water from its natural course, would be a source1 of great expense to the government-complaints were made that the water sometimes falls very low in the Trent river.

The largest public benefit would be obtained by constructing the canal through or near the towns of Hastings, Campbellford, Frankford and Trenton, where there are now large mills and factories.

A very large amount of water-power would be more available at the various dams on the Trent river than on the Port Hope route, and would be a valuable asset for the government.

The harbour of Trenton is much larger, and superior to that of Port Hope, and terminates in the inland waters of the Bay of Quints,

For the above reasons I consider that the Trenton route is the most suitable for the canal.

In briefly considering the differences that exist as to the southern terminus of this canal perhaps I could not deal with the matter in a better manner than by taking up and discussing the advantages claimed for the Port Hope route by its advocates. The principal advantage claimed is the saving in distance in construction from Rice lake to Port Hope over Rice lake to Trenton. The Port Hope route is said to be twenty-three miles, the Trenton route fifty-eight miles, and they thus claim a saving of thirty-five miles.

In this connection the advocates of the Port Hope route, forget or avoid stating that the distance from Rice lake to Montreal by way of Port Hope is greater than by way of Trenton by a distance of forty miles, that being the distance of Port Hope from Trenton via Lake Ontario and the Murray canal, and thus the mere matter of distance is more than made up by the Trenton route. They also minimize or omit to mention altogether the dangers of lake navigation from Port Hope to the Murray canal for light draft barges such as would be used in this canal. Any thoughtful consideration of these dangers, and the necessary delays by such a route, is sufficient in itself to condemn the adoption of this proposition. Port Hope harbour being an artificial one, these barges could enter it from the lake or leave it only in favourable weather. The prevailing winds during the season of navigation are from the south and west, thus blowing in upon the Ontario shore; and between Port Hope and the Murray canal there are no natural protected harbours in which in case of storm these barges could take refuge. Along that coast or shore are also a number of reefs and dangerous places, notably the Bluff and Presqu'ile Point-the latter stretching out into the lake in a southeasterly direction, and separated from the Murray shore by only a narrow channel. This channel I am told is constantly shifting owing to the sandy formation of the shore along the Murray side, and the water is exceedingly shallow outside this narrow channel. I have a personal knowledge of many wrecks at this point, having been born and brought up within a few miles of that place. To eater the Murray canal from Port Hope these barges would be obliged to describe three-quarters of a circle around the Presqu'isle Point, surrounded by these dangerous shoals, with only a narrow channel to work in, to navigate which at any time would be difficult, and in a rough sea would be almost impossible and undoubtedly dangerous. If these considerations alone were not enough to counterbalance this question of distance in construction, I would call attention to the fact that of the fifty-eight miles by the Trenton route, I am informed there is about thirty miles of it river navigation, thus leaving only about five miles difference in direct canalage.

The difference in the cost of construction of the two routes is only about $144,000, as estimated by an independent engineer-altogether too small a sum to have much weight in determining the route of this canal, having regard to the disadvantages and positive dangers to which I have referred, and contrasting with them the land-locked route terminating at Trenton, with a natural harbour and entirely inland navigation. The differences in cost of construction and saving of distance to be constructed are the chief arguments used by those who favour the Port Hope route, and these claims have been more than met by what I have stated. There are other questions raised such as the ease of construction, the area of lands to be flooded, both of these questions being involved in the other two, and the answer to the one being the answer to the other. The Trenton route will be constructed almost entirely through a limestone formation, thus affording a permanence in construction which could never be obtained on the Port Hope route, which must be constructed through light clay and sand, and, for a considerable distance, with banks ranging to a height of 136 feet, which must of neces-

8752'

sity be constantly shifting and falling into the canal, rendering permanent construction an impossibility. Although the initial cost of construction of the Port Hope route may (be the cheaper by the few thousand dollars stated, yet the cost of repains that will from time to time have to be made, will in a short time more than equal the difference in cost of first construction.

Another, and perhaps one of the most serious objections to the Port Hope route is the fact that it will have the effect of diverting from their natural channel the waters of the Trent to the loss and detriment of manufacturers and riparian owners along its course. These riparian owners have vested rights which cannot thus be Infringed upon Or . taken away wi'fJioiKt compensation.

To thus obligate the country, by the adoption of the Port Hope route, to compensate these owners for the damages sustained by them in the loss of the water-power occasioned thereby, would entail such an expenditure as would in itself exclude such route from favourable consideration, whereas the adoption of the Trenton route will not only avoid such loss and damage, but will, as a matter of fact, materially increase the value of the water-powers.

Let me again refer to this question of the drowned lands. That argument has been used to a very great extent by gentlemen who are advocating the construction of this canal to Port Hope. They say that a large portion of the land in that section of country along the line of the Trent valley canal, if the terminus is to be at Trenton, will be flooded and the government will have to acquire the land by purchase, so that the outlay would be very much greater in that respect than via Port Hope.

The lands along the Trent route that would be flooded would not touch to any great extent, the valuable agricultural lands of that section, but would be confined to the bottom and shallow lands lying in the valley of the river-now of little value-and separated from the better lands for a great portion of the distance by ridges sufficient to confine the water, whereas most of the lands to be affected on the Port Hope route are rich agricultural lands of considerable value and lying on nearly a common level, which would be flooded to a greater extent some years than others, thus rendering the question of damage from flooding, an uncertain question and an always existing source of irritation and trouble as well as expense.

Again, the Port Hope route will pass through a purely agricultural section already highly developed in that direction and capable of little improvement with no possibilities for the development of any great amount of power ; on the other hand the Trenton route will not only pass through rich agricultural lands but will touch many thriving towns and villages that already possess large and important manufacturing Mr. PORTER.

I

industries, which with the power that will be developed on this route will enable them to extend their influence in manufacturing pursuits to such an extent as from this consideration alone would fully warrant the adoption of this route.

The adoption of the Port Hope route would mean the abandonment of all the works and the loss of all the moneys already expended on that portion of the Trent river between Rice lake and Trenton, viz.

The lock and dam at Hastings.

The lock and dam at Heeley's Palls.

And the lock and dam at Chisholm's Rapids which have cost a considerable sum, both in original construction and in maintenance.

The advocates of the Port Hope route would ask the government to abandon all these and to construct an entirely new work, whereby these completed works would become perfectly useless. Nearly all of these reasons which I have been urging in connection with the completion of this canal have already been urged upon the government in the reports of engineers appointed by the government upon whose judgment the ministry could well afford to act. I see that this year there is placed in the estimates a sum of about $300,000 for expenditure upon this enterprise. It appears to me that that is an altogether insufficient sum for such an enterprise as this. Last year I find by the Auditor General's Report that there was expended upon capital account $523,950.74. I find there was expended upon income $18,500, making a total of $542,450.74. The appropriation taken last year for this work was only $450,000, and the actual expenditure was $542,000, so we say that there was about $100,000 for expenditure for which there was no appropriation taken last year. By the main estimates brought down this year the first estimate was $100,000. I do not know, the Finance Minister could probably inform me in regard to that, whether that $100,000 asked for in the appropriation this year would be applied to wiping out the over-expenditure of last year. It strikes me that it may be so unless there is a special vote for that purpose. In that case there would be for this year only some $200,000.

Now, upon the past expenditure of $4,000,000 we have to pay $120,000 of interest, and we have to make good the $100,000 overspent last year, and so it seems to me it is simply juggling with the accounts to say we are expending $350,000 upon the Trent Valley canal this year. That statement may be used, and is being used I know of my own personal knowledge, by the gentleman who is to oppose me in the riding I have the honour to represent. He says that through his influence with the government he has got them to spend between $300,000 and $400,000 on this canal this year. It will take $100,000 to pay off the extra expenditure made last year ; $120,000 to pay the interest on the expenditure already made ; and

the contracts they have in hand will call for more money if they are completed within the time agreed upon than the total appropriation. So, according to the way I figure it, there is not any money left for expenditure on the Trent Valley canal this year. This government ought not to treat the country, particularly the portions of the country especially interested in this matter, in that way. This is a matter of such importance, not merely to the country as a w'hole, but especially to the part of the country particularly interested, that the government can well afford, and ought as a matter of duty, to take from the large surplus that the Minister of Finance says he has in hand a sum of $4,000,000 or $5,000,000 and complete this Trent Valley water-way so that the people of Canada may have some benefit from It. To put it in a nutshell, this is the position. We have the middle of this canal completed, a hundred odd miles, and both ends shut up. I submit that this government ought not to trifle with the people in that way, they ought not to leave it in the hands of politicians to dangle it before the electors and use it as a means of influencing the vote of one elector or another, but should come out fairly and declare a policy, and that .policy should be the completion of that Canal by way of Trenton. And they should enter upon the completion of that canal without further delay.

Topic:   SUPPLY-TRENT VALLEY CANAL.
Subtopic:   TRENTON-FRANKFORD SECTION.
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ESTABLISHMENT OF A CANADIAN CONSULAR SERVICE.

LIB

Honoré Hippolyte Achille Gervais

Liberal

Mr. HONORE GERVAIS (Montreal, St. James).

I beg to make a few remarks, before this question is put, on the subject of the commercial relations of Canada, including expenditures in connection with negotiation of treaties or extension of commercial relations. This is the amount placed in the estimates for 1905 for such purposes ; it is not greater, it is not smaller than the amount of 1904 spent for the extension of Canadian commercial relations. For years past it nas been discussed both in the press, and in public, that it would be advisable that Canada should have as its representatives Canadian born citizens. This is the proper place and time to speak out what many Canadians think of the British consular service and the commercial agencies of Canada. Most of us say that they are deficient and that they should be replaced by a British Canadian consular service, paid by Canada, composed of her best trained citizens educated in commercial high schools, and appointed by England directly or by Canada by way of delegation. 1 need not say that such consuls would have to devote all their energy and time to the service of our country.

At once I must declare that I do not ignore the existence of the Trade and Commerce Department of Canada which was created I would say, in 1893, under the instigation

of Mr. Parmelee, the present and always able Deputy Ministers of Trade and Commerce. I do not wish anybody to forget that that department has for its head the brilliant, the efficient present Minister of Trade and Commerce, whose great eloquence is equal to his wise statesmanship and wide parliamentary experience. I know that Canada has a few able commissioners to advocate her commercial interests outside of its territory, under the guidance of a clever and devoted superintendent of agencies, Mr. O'Hara, newly appointed by this government. I also know that since 1896, the number of our agencies has been increased from G to 13 and their efficiency has been made fivefold greater. I admit that our Trade and Commerce Department has been since 1893 publishing, at first, annually, then monthly, and then weekly, the reports of our commercial agents. 1 confess that our Trade and Commerce Department has been making the most useful'reports concerning the trade, imports, exports, tonnage of Canada, the inspection of staple products, the culling, in Canada, and miscellaneous subjects as well as concerning the foreign trade of Canada, that is with England, and most of her sixty provinces or colonies and most of the sixty-five states composing the universal society of to-day. But I feel bound to say that our Trade and Commerce Department, which is the money-making department of our administration, is not as well treated as a spending department, by the parliament of Canada or that of Great Britain. The good work of our trade and commerce is handicapped by a want of a sufficient amount of money put at its disposal for the promotion of our commercial agencies, the negotiation of commercial treaties and the extension of the commercial relations of Canada.

Topic:   SUPPLY-TRENT VALLEY CANAL.
Subtopic:   ESTABLISHMENT OF A CANADIAN CONSULAR SERVICE.
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CON

Thomas Simpson Sproule

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SPROULE.

Do not they get all the funds they want ? We have never refused them any.

Topic:   SUPPLY-TRENT VALLEY CANAL.
Subtopic:   ESTABLISHMENT OF A CANADIAN CONSULAR SERVICE.
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LIB

Honoré Hippolyte Achille Gervais

Liberal

Mr. GERVAIS.

They have not sufficient funds. Moreover, our commercial agents have no status in international law : they are bound to be ignored by the foreign states, their number is totally inadequate to the work; their salaries are so meagre; their reports not sufficiently circulated, their qualifications in some cases totally deficient in many respects.

.cet us examine first the present condition of the British consular service ; and then-I will try to express what should be done to remedy the present evils. For many years Canadian commercial interests have been suffering greatly through lack of proper representation outside of Canada. What condition of affairs are we in to-day ? If the government of Canada wish to communicate with a British consul, very often they have to reach him via the Governor General of Canada, the Colonial Office and the Foreign Office and come back through the same chan-

nel; because that good consul will not think it fit to answer our government. Otherwise when I thus speak, I desire before anything else to declare my complete loyalty to the empire. Sir, I estimate too highly what my countrymen owe to the British sovereignty to either say or do anything which will seem as disloyal to our mother country. For I know, Sir, that economically the stability, the security, and the permanency of conditions enjoyed by persons and things Canadian are due to the everlasting prestige and strength of England. For, I know, Sir, that politically, my countrymen owe to England a great debt of gratitude and faithfulness for the great sum of freedom and liberty granted to Canada, and more particularly to my native province.

In Quebec, while we still cherish the maintenance of many connections with the intellectual French world, we are too thoroughly and happily linked to the defence to the last of the British flag, to say anything unbecoming to a British subject. I am here purely and simply to express the views of my countrymen of to-day, of a great many men of my age, who would like to have better commercial agents representing Canada throughout the United States as well as throughout Europe. The time is "ripe for Canada to have some of its own citizens to press its own interests in th|e principal capitals and cities of the world. We should be relieved of such consular service as that rendered by Mr. Staniforth of Rio Grande do Sul, who being ignorant of the law regarding the Canadian flag on registered vessels, thought it best to mutilate such flag so proudly and boldly carried to the South American seas by the J. M. Taylor, brigantine of Parrsborough, in Nova Scotia. We do not want for Canada anything which will resemble diplomatic representation, but what we do want is proper consular representation for the benefit more particularly of the citizens and traders of Canada. That is what we have never had, and that is what we will not have as long as British authority will not delegate to its largest colony the right of appointment of commercial agents, or will not agree to name as its consuls, such men as may be [DOT]designated by the government" of Canada and who will have special instructions to work for Canadian welfare.

I will try at once to answer some of the objections which may naturally be raised that England will never grant to Canada the right to appoint consuls and teat the discussion I am now raising will have no practical result. To this I will answer that neither does the constitution prevent us from making such a request nor is there any reason why the same cannot be granted. This has already been granted by England to the East India Company, as was pointed out by Edmund Burke in his great oration in arraignment of Warren Hastings. Such has been the case, moreover, for most

Topic:   SUPPLY-TRENT VALLEY CANAL.
Subtopic:   ESTABLISHMENT OF A CANADIAN CONSULAR SERVICE.
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LIB

Honoré Hippolyte Achille Gervais

Liberal

Mr. GERVAIS.

of that third class of English colonies called the Privileged Chartered Colonies.

The right of petition is one of the twelve natural rights which cannot be set aside by one or any positive laws, neither constitutional nor municipal. Therefore, I am here expressing such views by and in virtue of my right of speech, granted to every man, even to a colonial, and to a man of a * dominion ' or ' plantation ' of His Majesty, to use the language of the Act, 3 and 4 of William IV, chapter 41, relating to the better administration of justice in His Majesty's Privy Council. And I feel authorized also to hold such pretensions by the fact that for the last thirty years, many of our Canadian statesmen have been engaged in the diplomatic service of England, at the request of the latter. Have we not seen such statesmen as Sir John A. Macdonald, Sir Charles Tupper, Sir Richard Cartwright, Sir Wilfrid Laurier, Sir Louis Jette, Mr. Bourassa and Mr. A. B. Aylesworth clothed with the high office of diplomatic agents of England. Would it be out of the reach of things possible that Canadians could render good assistance to the Consular Service of England ? Could it be so that the Canadian born would be in a better position to explain Canadian affairs to the traders and citizens of the American republics ? Could it be so that a British Canadian born at Vancouver would know better the affairs of trade in San Francisco than a gentleman from Nottingham ? Could it be so that a Canadian consul born at Winnipeg would know better the business conditions in Duluth than a merchant from Edinburgh ? Could it be so because a British Canadian consul born in Montreal would know far better the trade and conditions in New York than a lawyer from Dublin ? Could it be so because a British Canadian consul born in Halifax' would know better the transportation trade between his city and those of the Atlantic coast than a retired colonel from Bristol ?

By establishing a British Canadian Consular Service, we would secure greater wealth for the empire as well ; because we think that by working for the development of one part of the empire we are working for the development of the whole empire. If we can make this Canada of ours three times stronger, richer, and more respected by the citizens of the other states, we will with three-fold power help the empire. In a word to the oae who asserts that England will never agree to give us special consular service, I say, Sir, let us demand it. This consular service should precede the granting of the right of treaty-making, a subject which has been a topic of discussion for the last few years throughout Canada. How can Canada make a good commercial treaty if it has no proper data or information about the contract it intends to enter into ? I say that the right to appoint Canadians as

consuls should first he granted, and then the treaty negotiating power should then comt Let me say with Kipling :

Let go, let go the anchors ;

Now ashamed at heart are we To bring so poor a cargo home That had for gift the sea !

Let go the great bow-anchors-

Ah, fools were we and blind-

The worst we stored with utter toil, The best we left behind !

And then wealth would come to our shores carried by a fleet of merchantmen five times greater than the one we have to-day. Has not the French poet Lemierre written :

Le sceptre de Neptune est le sceptre du Monde.

A most appropriate epigraph for the old merchant shipping Act of 1660.

I will now make a few remarks as to the necessity for Canada having a proper consular representation. Complaints are made against the usefulness of the British Consular Service ; the charges, I would venture to say, are well founded. These complaints come more particularly from England, because the Canadian traders have been in the past shrewd enough, clever enough and painstaking enough to secure for their own country a great bulk of the trade of the world, without such assistance from the British Consular Service ; but as every man knows, for the last few years, great battles for controlling trade have been raging fiercely throughout the world for the best position in the commercial market ; some new arrangement, some new weapons, some new soldiers should be secured for the development, the maintain-ance and the defence of Canadian trade. Let us refer to some English opinions as to the deficiency of the British Consular Service. Any one can read in the ' Quarterly Review ' of 1903, a very able article pointing out the deficiencies in that service, and condemning the same altogether for want of qualifications of the British consuls and inefficiency in the execution of the duties assigned to them by the guide of instruction published and distributed by the British Foreign Office.

In England it is a general complaint on the part of the traders that the diplomatic service, including consular service, is unfriendly or, at best, indifferent to the protection of commercial interests. In the second place, it is complained that the information given by the diplomatic, as well as the consular service, regarding commercial matters, which is transmitted from abroad, is not of the right kind-comes too late, and is not published in an accessible or attractive form. These charges have been made year after year in England. Since the year 1825, when proper salaries were first established in England for the British consuls, select committees of parliament

have been appointed with instructions to find out the ways and means of improving the consular service of the empire. The last select committee was appointed in the year 1886.

We gather from the correspondence respecting the question of assistance of diplomatic and consular service to British trade abroad much good information about the complaints of deficiency of the British consular service.

It is now admitted by every one in the British Isles that there is a persistent demand for more intelligent, energetic and efficient co-operaition on t'he part of consuls with merchants and manufacturers. It is said that in recent years, since the international commerce in all the great centres of the world, has become intensified to a degree undreamt of a generation ago, greater attention has been given to the duties and responsibilities of consuls in what has been one of their most important functions, that of acting as the pioneers, ambassadors and soldiers of trade.

Let me quote some opinions expressed by eminent British parliamentarians during aii important debate on the consular service of England during the year 1902. Any one can consult, with profit to himself, the English ' Hansard,' volume 110, page 728, July 3rd, 1902, and volume 111, pages 300 and 308, July 15, 1902. We find there expressions of opinion by such eminent men as Mr. James Bryce, 'Sir Charles Dilke and Sir Edward Grey, three late Under -Secretaries of State for England; as well as by Henry La-bouchere, the 'great parliamentarian and journalist, whom every one knows.

In the Parliamentary Debates, volume 111, pages 290-291, Henry Labouch&re said :

Mr. Labouchere (Northampton) said that he understood that sometimes a subordinate of the consular staff was a foreigner, but he thought the idea of the Foreign Office was that so far as they could do it, they got men of British nationality in the- consular service. There was a case in Berlin some time ago, where this country appointed the backer of Prince Bismarck, and it struck him at that time that a man more unfit to represent British interests in Germany could not be found than Prince Bismarck's banker.

He was a strong advocate of large expenditure being undertaken by the government for the spreading and looking after of our commerce, but he did not think, considering what we spent on our army and navy we spent a sufficient amount on our consular service.

The bon. member had come across consuls who were charming men ; he knew nothing personally against them, but certainly no country would think of having these men as commercial agents. They could not write reports, but they went to some merchant, perhaps their tailor or somebody, and asked him to write1 a report. They signed it and sent it home. These reports were in many cases, not worth the paper they were written on. Some of the reports were very good but many of them were very poor. These men had no commercial education. The Foreign Office must recognize

that this must he made a profession. They must take young men who had passed an examination and put them as pupils in divers consulates, giving them a small salary.. Then, according to their fitness to the work, they could be promoted to be vice-consuls, consuls, and consular generals with larger salaries. Our consular officer in the matter of commercial intelligence was below that of Prance. He could not agree with his hon. friend opposite that the consular service should be put under *the Board of Trade and separated from the Foreign Office.

Sir Edward Grey, pages 301, 302 and 303, -volume 111, said :

Sir Edward Grey (Northumberland, Berwick): In order to secure a sufficient service a considerable amount of money must be spent on it. He quite agreed that a rearrangement and redistribution of the amount now spent might do something, but it would not do all that was wanted. He thought that more would have to be spent ; and he would ask hon. members to bear in mind that though in times of peace we should spend much less than in times of war, there were services which required considerable expenditure in times of peace.

What they would like to see was a more professional service and men being specially trained for the work. But having got men specially trained for the work, they must see that their promotion in the consular service was as far as possible in accordance with the merit. Men who had been specially trained for the work must receive adequate recognition whenever they responded to the training that had been given them.

Sir Edward Grey continued :

He doubted whether a consular office drawing up his report, had a sufficiently clear idea of what the government wished him to do.

When the great trading districts of the country were turning out as much work as they could do, they were not likely to be very anxious about whether new markets were being formed or whether a market was being lost in any other part of the world. That was just the danger against which they must endeavour to guard.

Mr. Louis Sinclair (Essex, Romford) said :

Mr. Louis Sinclair thought these consular reports should at least be business-like, otherwise they were not worth the paper they were printed upon, and it would be a waste of time to read them and publish them. It was well known how unbusiness-like the Foreign Office was in these matters, and our trade and commerce suffered in consequence. Our consular reports compared very unfavourably with those of the United States. America spent a much larger sum of money and employed fifty-one consuls in Germany, as compared with five paid officials representing Great Britain in Germany. That showed how unbusiness-like the method of the Foreign Office was, and in his opinion this department ought to be placed in charge of a Minister of Commerce. This question very much affected the colonies, because foreign governments had consuls and commercial attaches in all our colonies, with the result that they snatched the trade which should come to this country. They had no information sent them to guide English traders and manufacturers. This Mr. GERVAIS.

was not the only point in which this country was behind, for in South Africa and Japan similar things were occurring.

In South Africa during the war, France and Germany sent agents to report what could be done there for their manufactures, and all kinds of trade in manufactured articles and contracts had been taken away from us. That was the result of inadequate commercial information, for they had a right to demand reliable information for the money which was spent. The noble Lord the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs seemed to be satisfied that the amount of commerce with Bolivia was so small that it was not worth considering.

Mr. Bryce said :

Mr. Bryce agreed that he had seen a good many of the reports of United States consuls, and he would suggest to the Foreign Office that the representatives abroad should furnish us with similar reports. They were short treaties on the commercial possibilities of the future.

Sir Charles Dilke, page 308, volume 111, said :

Sir Chas. Dilke : On the question of consular representation there was a tendency on the part of all who had been connected with the Foreign Office to ignore the fact that there had been a good deal of jobbery with consular appointments. Personally he was acquainted-as others must be-with notorious cases in which men by an undue use of the patronage of various Secretaries of State, had been jobbed in consular appointments for which they were totally unfit, and the interests of the country had suffered in a very high degree in consequence. There was also the fact that most meritorious consuls had for years laboured very hard indeed in the service of the country, and in the commercial work to wffiich so much importance was properly attached, and had then frequently been passed over, and men from outside had been ' jobbed ' over their heads into posts which were regarded as the prizes of the profession and to which these consuls ought to have been appointed as a reward for the good work they had done.

Parliamentary Debates, volume 110, page 728 :[DOT]

Mr. Bryce (Aberdeen S.) : The one thing he

regretted was that appointments to the service were often made in the spirit of what might be called pure patronage, men being appointed for political and personal reasons, to the disappointment of the legitimate hopes of better men in the service.

It was said during this debate that one could find in England men who had written on commercial subjects and who had gained universal public estimation, who had been lost to the state by their retirement, while still in middle age and full of capacity for continued efficient service, while others who have never afforded any public evidence of interest in either commercial or shipping matters, and who had no experience whatsoever to fit them for such posts, had been appointed to office in the most important commercial and shipping ports. Sir Henry Bergue. head of the Consulate Department of the British Foreign Office, as late as the

87G2

year 1901. admitted under oath, before a select committee of the House, that there was no officer in the Foreign Office to study the consular reports, that he himself had merely ' skimmed ' them. Sir Henry Bergne admitted also that there was no officer in the Foreign Office to even read the consular reports ; that there were too many honorary consuls and vice-consuls.

Another charge was made against the British consular system, which was to the effect that no competitive examination was held for the appointment of consuls, but merely and exclusively a qualifying examination. Here is a synopsis of the qualifications required in order to become a British consul ; applicant must read and speak English and French, he must be able also to speak the language of the people amongst whpm hei Is to reside. That is to say, if the British consul is to be stationed near the Mediterranean sea, lie will be required to speak French or Italian ; if he is to be stationed near the Baltic, he will be required to know the German language; if he Is to be stationed in some Spanish countries, he will have to know Spanish, and so on. Lastly, the applicant for the British consular service must have a knowledge of Colenso's arithmetic, and have a general knowledge of the commercial and mercantile law.

One of the charges made by Mr. James Bryce and the other speakers in the British House of Commons, is that the consular service of England has been made a harbour of refuge for retired army officers, or for failures, whose only recommendation is aristocratic, official or personal influence.

Another ground of complaint in England is that the British Consulate generally is worse paid than those of France, Germany, Russia, and the United States ; while on the other hand, the American consul in London is getting a salary of $5,000 a year, the British consul resident in New York, $10,000 ; but on the whole, it is admitted that the British consul is not well enough paid.

The members of this House will, at a glance, see that I am drawing a very poor picture of the British Consular Service. Let me say at once that the complainants in the House of Commons in England against the British Consular Service have discovered in some departments persons whose qualifications are perfectly adequate to the duties of a first-class agent. As far* as can be gathered from the discussion in England, the consul appointed in the Near and Far East, is perfectly capable of representing British interests, and it is admitted that the greatest success achieved by the British government in the Near and Far East was so obtained through the ability of its consular agents. Some have found in this branch of the consular service a model for

a general consular service for England. For those consuls who have to go to the Near and Far East, there are very searching examinations. An applicant for British Consular Service in the Near and Far East, must, outside of the general knowledge he has gained, in the British schools, qualify in Latin, French, German, and precis-writing, geography, mathematics, elements of criminal law, elements of commercial and mercantile law ; then the applicant must take some probationary service with the junior attaches to the Pekin, Tolcio or Bangkok legations. Further, me applicant must learn the language, the history, geography, the history of treaties and the Orders in Council relating to the country in which he is to lie appointed. While speaking about this matter of Orders in Council, let me once more refer to the British Consul Percy Staniforth at Rio Grande do Sul. and say that he would have avoided insult, in February, 1904. to the flag of Canada, had he known tne Orders in Council of lt>oo and 1892 permitting Canada at any rate, to have a flag of its own for our vessels registered in Canada. But let me come back to the question of consular qualification. The applicant for British consular service in the Near and Far East is often attached to a British court in the Far East; for example, to the Supreme Court, in China, and very often the British consul will become judge of such Supreme court, and will be called to the bar and appointed to such high court.

The ' Quarterly Review ' points out that the French Consular Service is in marked contrast to the indifference displayed in Great Britain to the qualification of persons selected for consular service. Those are the views of British parliamentarians concerning the British consular agencies.

Let me add some further remarks in regard to the deficiencies of the present consular service as far as we are concerned'. Lot me compare the British Consular Service with the American. If we look at the American consular reports for 1902, we find that Mr. Listoe. a consul in Holland1, gave current quotations of prices in Rot-te! dam and general information about American lumber, pig-iron, shoes, and flour. Mr. Lisioe, among other things says :

1 have investigated the matter and find that the following quotations rule at present for logs per one thousand feet, board measure :

Prime walnut logs, 16 inches and upward, to average 21 to 22 inches, $90 to $100 ; to average 23 inches to 24 inches, $110 to $120.

Pitch pine, 1 inch to 3 inches, by 11 inches and upwards per standard $63.25 to $65.68.

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?

Capt. C.@

McFarlane, a consul at Nottingham, reproduces in his report good designs of Jacquard's silk machines.

Mr. Harris Eibenstock gives lithographic reproductions of the Bulow Strasse showing the construction of the underground and elevated railways at Berlin, Germany.

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?

Capt. R.@

876S

face of the earth under different styles and names. On the other hand, when we look at the foreign states, we see that immense amounts of money are spent yearly for the benefit of the diplomatic service and more especially of consular representation. Here is a list of some of the countries with their expenditures.

Germany : 14,818,000 marks or $3,704,-

500.

Denmark : 771,338 kroners 263/1000 or $193,000.

France: 17,601,210 francs 193/1000 or

Greece : 2,698,553 draekmai 193/1000 or $540,000.

Italy : 16,363,891 iires 193/1000 or $3,273,-

000. ,

Japan: 2,284,161 yens 498/1000 or $142,081.

Netherlands : 947,301 guilders 400/1000 or $380,000.

Portugal : 359,650 milreis 1080/1000 or $400,000.

Russia : 6,063,033 rubles 575/1000 of $3,040,000.

Spain : 5,077,252 pesetas 193/10U0 or $1,015,483. *

Sweden : 695,150 kroners 268/1000 or

Norway: 764,878 kroners 268/1000 or

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LIB

Honoré Hippolyte Achille Gervais

Liberal

Mr. GERVAIS.

You will see, at once, what a good Canadian consul having at heart the promotion of the interests of their country should be.

Here is what I would propose for the better extension of our foreign trade: by means of a true British Canadian consular service.

1. The publication of an official paper, setting forth tariff changes, movements, in foreign markets, foreign commercial legislation, port and harbour regulations, &c.

2. rue establishment of an office in Ottawa where tariffs, circulars, items of commerce, news, &c., can be referred to by the public who may inspect and copy.

8. That sample and specimen rooms should be attached to the principal consulate abroad, where various classes of Canadian manufactured goods .might be kept on view, and that the expense of maintaining such sample rooms should be met by fees to be fixed by an Order in Council.

4. That Commercial Museums of foreign manufactured goods and products be established in well chosen centres in Canada and also exhibitions of Canadian goods, to be opened at foreign ports, or sent in vessels from place to place.

5. That changes in foreign tariffs should be known more rapidly than heretofore, and tnat projected changes should be promptly reported.

6. That consular officers abroad should use their best efforts to place British subjects on a not less favourable footing than foreigners in search of concessions or other commercial enterprises.

7. That any such enterprise should at once be reported home by Her Majesty's representatives.

8. That consuls be chosen from men (possessing commercial qualifications and technical knowledge, and that commercial clerks should be appointed to all consulates.

9. That the names and addresses of consuls abroad and their office hours should be made public.

10. That trade reports should appear more frequently and regularly and that copies of them be sent to trade journals.

11. That diplomatic and consular reports should give the fullest details on the industry and condition of the foreign working classes and be distributed throughout Canada.

12. That samples of goods be sent home with the .reports.

13. That changes of classifications be noted, and decisions of commercial tribunals reported.

That Canadian commercial attaches be appointed to embassies and legations.

14. That consuls should assist in recovering debts and recommend trustworthy lawyers and accountants.

15. That consuls should report what means other countries adopt to push their trade.

16. That consuls when home on leave should visit centres of Canadian manufactures and acquire technical knowledge.

17. That they should report on the solvency of foreign business houses and how far credit may safely be given.

18. That a special department of the Trade and Commerce Department charged with the prompt collection, publication and diffusion of important information concerning commercial and industrial affairs.

19. That His Majesty's consuls should act as quasi-public prosecutors in cases of trade mark infringement, &c.

20. That the Trade and Commerce Department be assisted by a council of advice to be composed of persons chosen from the chambers of commerce.

21. That consuls should be placed in direct communication with chambers of commerce.

22. That consuls should cultivate a closer personal touch with traders in their district.

23. That consuls be allowed to pay for early statistical information.

Here are some facts about the trade of our country taken from abroad about the proper ways of developing the interests of our country. Canada is rich enough to pay for a consular service, and I do not see why Canada should not do its best to develop the trade which is coming to its shores and to its ports, l would like to see established in this country a consular service, trained according to the home modern pattern in use for the British consuls in the near and far east. X would like, as those British Canadian consuls would be compelled to work in America, in the South American republics, and to meet the German, French or Belgian consuls, or business men, that they should be trained according to the German, French and Belgian methods. Let us make, as in Belgium, the graduating in one of those schools, one of the requirements asked from a consul to qualify himself for such function. I would like to see our Canadian consuls trained in a school like those commercial high schools of Germany, France or Belgium, one of which should be established in each of the provinces of this great Dominion. I would like to have our Canadian consuls trained in a school similar to L'Ecole Superieure de Commerce de Paris, founded in 1820: de Mulhouse, founded in 1866; du Havre, de Bordeaux, de Lille, de l'Ecole des Hautes Commerciales de Paris, all founded between the years 1870 and 18S4. in a school like 1'Institut Superieur de Commerce d'Anvers in Belgium. After two or three years of study in a school like those German, Belgian or French schools, where our apprentice consuls would have studied the recent developments in higher commercial education, they would be fit to defend our commercial interests. In a school like that of Leipzig Handels-Hochschule, our consuls would have to study such subjects as:-

278J

(A)-Economies and Statistics.

Introduction to economic theory. Social economics. Economic problems of the present day (including agrarian crisis, the movement in the middle classes, commercial treaties and colonial problems.) Commercial and industrial history from the fifteenth century to the present time. Introduction to the study of statistics. History, theory and practice of statistics. Principles of public finance. English. Colonial policy.

(B)-Law.

General introduction to jurisprudence (for non-jurists). (Commercial law (various courses). Law of contract. Law regulating employment. Maritime law. Interna tional law. Law regulating insurance for sickness, accident and old age.

(C)-Geography, Study of Articles of Commerce, Technology.

Commercial geography. The United States. The Oarribean sea and the South American republics. The peoples of Indio-China, Ethnography. Scientific basis on which to ground a critical estimate of the characteristics of different nations. Chemistry in its application to industry and commerce. Tropical agriculture, with special reference to the English colonies.

(D)-Languages.

English. French. Italian. Spanish. German (and also special instructions in the Handels-Hochschule). Chinese.

(E)-Commercial Subjects.

Book-keeping {various courses adjusted to the commercial callings). Commercial correspondence (various courses'adjusted to the needs of different commercial callings). Commercial methods, office organization and the machinery of business (practical work in 'bureau'). Shorthand. Typewriting.

General Courses.

History of Europe (various courses). History of England (various courses) History of English culture and literature (various courses). History and present condition of the United States.

Courses specially meant for those intending to qualify as teachers.

History of education in the 19th century. American school system in 1901. School hygiene. Practice in elocution and voice-production.

Those industrial high schools in Germany, after having been ridiculed by narrowminded people, are now, together with the commercial high school, the ironclads of commerce, according to Mr. Meyer, deputy consul at Chemintz

I have finished, Sir. I have tried to prove these five facts :

1. Inefficiency of the British consular service.

.2 Urgency of a Canadian consular service.

3. Capability of Canada to defray such service.

4. Opportunity to train our consuls.

5. Results-everlasting prosperity and grandeur of Canada. It should be the wish of every man in this country (to have a better consular service, such as I have proposed, and which is in use in the best organized commercial countries of the world; and, with such a service, I may venture the opinion that within twenty year's the grand total of the wealth in this country will have doubled, for the benefit of its inhabitants and the welfare of the empire, as well as the motherland. New centres of commerce will have to be discovered for the benefit of the traders and merchantmen of Canada. A commercial fleet of tremendous proportions will have been created soon. Most of our imports will then be carried by Canadian vessels ; the less American railways will get of our money for transportation into Canada of imports, the more Canadians will get.

It is now (the time to repeat the words of Kipling :

Coastwise-Cross-seas-round the world and bach again,

Whither flaw shall fail us or the Trades drive down-

Plain-sail-Storm-sail-lay your board and tack again-

And all to bring a cargo up to London town !

Nobody has a right to hold us back, to prevent us fi'om breathing some of the international life, the highest form of life known to man. Canada has a natural right to trade in all shapes or forms, and to create all the essential organisms required therefor. The right to progress belongs to every community, as well as to individuals. Is there a good reason why Canada should be stopped from giving to her manufacturers, traders and shippers proper, complete and quick information about the foreign commodities, as well as the ways and means to export Canadian commodities ? Let Canada, therefore, ask England to grant her the right of appointing British Canadian consuls, or let Canada ask England to appoint consuls herself, consuls amongst the born Citizens of the latter, with the understanding, in any case, that those consuls will be paid by Canada, trained in Canada, and will work for Canada. The latter request should he granted to Canada at any rate. I may [understand very well that England will hesitate to divest herself of any part of her right of appointment of consuls, any portion of sovereign power Is so valuable according to the modern mind. But I cannot understand why England should refuse to appoint Canadian-born British subjects as her consuls. For, shall iit be said that in the empire of England, as in the empire of Rome, there are three classes of freedmen : The Cives Romani ; the Latini Juniani ; the

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LIB

Honoré Hippolyte Achille Gervais

Liberal

Mr. GERVAIS.

dediditii. If it is so, let it be known to Canadians that they are Latini Juniani of the British empire.

The sooner the better.

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FISHING REGULATIONS.

CON

John Waterhouse Daniel

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. J. W. DANIEL (St. John City).

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WM. G. GOOD.


Notary Public. I take it that this is a matter which concerns very closely indeed the Department of Marine and Fisheries. And I would ask the minister what he proposes to do under the circumstances and whether, in view of what is really an attempt at murder, he will take any action towards finding out and prosecuting the guilty parties. The reasons which the minister gave in remitting these fines and penalties, I think, would be taken exception to. Among other things he makes it a sort of quarrel, as it were, between the coast and net fishermen. But the carrying out of the Act is neither for one nor for the other, but for both. On the Quebec side of the Baie des Ohaleurs the Act is carried out, as it is in other parts of the country, and trouble is avoided. In the harbour of St. John we have a considerable salmon fishery, and the Act is strictly enforced. If it is possible to enforce it in one place it is possible to enforce it in another. As I am informed, the fishermen interested in the parts to which I refer are really anxious that the law should b'e enforced. But, because there are one or two who break the law the others do so as well.


LIB

Peter Macdonald (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER.

I would draw the attention of the House to the fact that at is Saturday night and nearly twelve O'clock.

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CON

John Waterhouse Daniel

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DANIEL.

It is not yet twelve o'clock, and I would like the minister say that if he will take any steps in regard to this outrage to which I now draw his attention, and also whether it is the policy of the department to lay down regulations

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LIB

William Ross

Liberal

Mr. WM. ROSS (Victoria).

I would call the hon. gentleman's (Mr. Daniel's) attention to the fact that it is twelve o'clock.

Mr. DANIEL-and whether it is the intention of the department to carry out the lawr. Because I am sure that notwithstanding the fact that the minister remitted the fines and penalties and, in so doing, stated that he thought the people were really trying to comply bona fide with the law, the evidence shows that these people were using trap-nets which is entirely opposed to the Fisheries Act.

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LIB

William Ross

Liberal

Mr. WM. ROSS (Victoria).

Twelve o'clock.

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LIB

Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine (Minister of Marine and Fisheries)

Liberal

Hon. RAYMOND PREFONTAINE (Minister of Marine and Fisheries).

If the hon. gentleman (Mr. Daniel) will allow me-I have an answer to the statement he is presenting and, as it is twelve oVfiock on Sunday morning I would suggest that he should

wait until Monday, when he can continue his remarks and when I can answer him.

Mr. FIELDING moved for leave to withdraw his motion for leave also to sit again on Monday.

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August 6, 1904