June 9, 1904

QUESTIONS.

COLD STORAGE AND VENTILATION ON OCEAN STEAMERS.

?

Mr. E. D.@

SMITH-by Mr. Taylor-asked :

What was the kind of ventilation, if any, last season, in the compartments in which perishable cargo was stored on the steamers ' Livonia,' ' Tritonia ' and ' Devona ' ; and was the system in proper working order in each such compartment when these steamers left the port of Montreal ?

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   COLD STORAGE AND VENTILATION ON OCEAN STEAMERS.
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LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Hon. SYDNEY FISHER (Minister of Agriculture).

SS. ' Livonia.'

This vessel did not carry perishable cargo from the Port of Montreal last season.

SS. 'Tritonia.'

No. 1 'tween decks . two 24 inch cowl ventilators ; one 11 inch ditto ; and one 36 inch .ventilator with steam driven propeller fan.

Nos. 2 and 3 'tween decks : one 24 inch

cowl ventilator ; one 24 inch ventilator with steam driven propellor fan ; and one 36 inch ventilator with steam driven propellor fan.

No. 1 orlop deck : three 12 inch cowl

ventilators; and one 14 inch ventilator with steam driven fan.

No. 1 hold : 2 intakes and 1 outtake.

No. 2 hold : 2 intakes and 2 outtakes.

No. 3 hold : 2 intakes and 1 outtake.

No. 4 hold : 1 intake and 1 outtake.

No. 5 hold : 1 intake and 1 outtake.

SS. ' Devona.'

On this vessel the cold storage and cooled air compartments occupied all the space in the 'tween decks. The holds were ventil-

ated by two steam driven propellor fans, by ten cowl ventilators, and by three trunk ventilators.

The system of ventilation in the steamship ' Tritonia ' and steamship ' Devona ' was on proper working order when these steamers left the port of Montreal.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   COLD STORAGE AND VENTILATION ON OCEAN STEAMERS.
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LORD DUNDONALD'S SPEECH.

LIB

William Scott Maclaren

Liberal

Mr. W. S. MACLAREN (Huntingdon).

Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day are called, I would like to draw the attention of the House to an article that appears in the Ottawa ' Citizen ' of yesterday. The article is not very long and I will read it to the House. It is as follows : .

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   LORD DUNDONALD'S SPEECH.
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A MILITARY SENSATION.


Lord Dundonald's Speech at Windsor Banquet. Deplores the interference of politicians with the appointments to the Canadian volunteer force-The condition, he says, is intolerable. Toronto, June 7.-The 'World' this morning publishes the following sensational story under an Ottawa date :- A Montreal officer who was present at the military dinner at the Windsor Saturday, stated here to-day that Lord Dundonald's sensational speech, although carefully written out and intended for publication, had been carefully suppressed by the Montreal newspapers. This is what the general said : When a nation is in peril the commanding officer had the supreme control of the military appointments, and he is responsible to his country for its efficiency in war. In time of peace, unhappily, through political intriguers, we are in their web, and appointments are made without regard to military efficiency and to the great peril of the nation's safety. Officers in command of the forces of this country should not be selected because of their particular politics, but unfortunately this is the case. A most flagrant instance of political interference has recently come before me in connection with the appointment of officers in the new eastern townships cavalry regiment, the Scottish Light Dragoons. The commanding officer of the corps had selected officers because of their apparent fitness from a military point of view. The names reached me and were sent to council, and gentlemen, what do you think happened ? The list having my approval was returned with the name of one officer stricken off, and initialed by the Minister of Agriculture. The gentleman whose name was stricken from the list was Dr. Pickell, the mayor of Sweetsburg, and warden of the county of Mis-sisquoi, a man chosen of the people and well qualified to serve his King and country. His political colour was not, however, that of the Minister of Agriculture, and consequently he was not considered fit to serve his King in the military force of Canada. ' If,' said Lord Dundonald, ' the Hon. Sydney Fisher has been as well versed in soldiering as in agriculture, he would have better understood the responsibilities ot officers, and this would not have happened.'


LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

After making a few more remarks, the general said : ' It is intolerable that my recommendations. made in the best interests of the force, should be so grossly interfered with by any minister, not connected with the department.

Lord Dundonald's speech was greeted with tremendous applause.

Lt.-Col. Whibbard also made a speech in which he endeavoured to shield the Minister of Agriculture, saying that it was difficult to suppose that Hon. Mr. Fisher would be guilty of such an act.

It goes without saying that the speech is the talk of both Ottawa and Montreal.

The question I would like to ask is as to whether the government is aware of this article which is published in the ' Citizen.' It is a very serious matter and I think requires some explanation.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   A MILITARY SENSATION.
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?

Right Hon. S@

Mr. Speaker, I have to inform my hon. friend from Huntingdon (Mr. Maclaren) and the House as well that the government's attention has been called to the reported speech of Lord Dundonald. The matter is a very grave one and I have only to say that to-morrow the government will be prepared to make a communication to the House upon it.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   A MILITARY SENSATION.
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L-C
LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER.

In answer to the question just put to me by my hon. friend from North Victoria (Mr. Hughes) why this matter should not be postponed until Monday instead of to-morrow, I would say to my hon. friend that my hon. friend the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Fisher) is under a very serious misapprehension and stricture, and I think it is better that the matter should be cleared up at the earliest possible moment.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   A MILITARY SENSATION.
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CANADIAN FISHING REGULATIONS.

CON

George Taylor (Chief Opposition Whip; Whip of the Conservative Party (1867-1942))

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. GEORGE TAYLOR.

Before the Orders of the Day are called perhaps the hon. Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Frefontaine) will make the announcement that he promised to make to the House.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   CANADIAN FISHING REGULATIONS.
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LIB

Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine (Minister of Marine and Fisheries)

Liberal

Hon. RAYMOND PREFONTAINE (Minister of Marine and Fisheries).

I received the statement which I intend to lay on the table of the House, but it was too late to submit to my colleagues and I will submit it to the House to-morrew.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   CANADIAN FISHING REGULATIONS.
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WAYS AND MEANS-THE BUDGET.


The House resumed adjourned debate on the proposed motion of Mr. Fielding : That the Speaker do now leave the chair, for the House to go into commitee to consider of the ways and means for raising the supply to be granted to His Majesty.


CON

Edmund Boyd Osler

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. E. B. OSLER (West Toronto).

Mr. Speaker, I do not propose to detain the

House very long and I do not propose to weary it with long arrays of figures. The question of figures and statistics has been dealt with by the hon. Minister of Finance (Mr. Fielding) and by the hon. gentlemen who have spoken from this side of the House. I propose to deal more generally with the question. The right hon. Minister of Trade and Commerce (Sir Richard Cartwright) made a very charming speech. It gave great pleasure to the members on his own side of the House ; and we do not begrudge them that, because it is seldom they have had an occasion since this session open-end to indulge in a little fun or a little laughter. They had some justification for their mirth yesterday, because the figures with regard to our manufacturing industries quoted by the Minister of Trade and Commerce were amusing if they were not correct. The Minister of Trade and Commerce told us that the statement of the Finance Minister, in which he was able to boast of continuous prosperity, must have been gall and wormwood to the members of the opposition. Let me tell the Minister of Trade and Commerce that he is mistaken there. No matter what party may be in power, the Conservatives of Canada will always be gratified when a Finance Minister in his budget speech is able to present indications that Canada is prosperous, even though mismanaged. The Minister of Trade and Commerce evidently cannot conceive that other men have loftier and more patriotic views than he entertains. The hon. gentleman inferentially took credit to the government that the farmers of Canada are more prosperous to-day than they were some years ago. Let me call his attention to the fact that in the states of the union which some years ago he so ably represented as immigrant agent, in Kansas, the Dakotas and thewestern states generelly, the farmers were in an infinitely more depressed condition than ever were the farmers in any part of Canada. During some years of prosperity the farmers in these states recovered their position, and so keenly did they rejoice at their translation from commercial slavery to freedom, that they made bonfires of the mortgages which they had redeemed and which at one time they thought must swamp them. Providence has sent to these states a bounteous harvest for several years in succession, and as the farmers of Canada have had the same experience of late years they are prosperous in a degree. The Minister of Finance presented a budget which was eminently satisfactory from several points of view. He was able to speak of large revenues, increasing deposits in the banks, progressive trade, and he took credit for that to the wise administration of himself and his colleagues. Well, Sir, the reason of this prosperity is that we have had good crops, higher prices for our produce, and greater areas of virgin soil brought under cultivation ; thus presenting to our people new

sources of wealth which we trust will be of advantage to our country for many years to come. The budget was more remarkable for what it omitted than for what it contained. The Minister of Finance presented a diagram, presumably to show the progress Canada has made since confederation ; but that diagram was remarkable for the omission of any indication as to the imports by Canada from the United States. It is a most extraordinary thing that the Minister of Finance shduld deliberately suppress the one part of that diagram which the government wished the country to be ignorant of. I do not think the Minister of Finance realized what he was doing when he deliberately placed before the country a diagram purporting to show the progress of every branch of our trade, and omitted to show our trade with our most important and largest customer, the United States. Another omission which is unprecedented is that the Minister of Finance made no reference whatever to the anticipated revenue and expenditure for the coming year. I presume we may take it for granted that there is an election to be held before next session, and that the Minister of Finance did not want to bring forward any estimate which might be found to be fallacious. There was another very extraordinary omission from the budget speech. This government has committed the country to an expenditure for the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway of anywhere between $120,000,000 and .$170,000,000, adding 50 per cent to our national debt, and yet the Minister of Finance had not a word to say as to how this money would be raised or as to what effect the scheme will have on our future revenue and expenditure. These omissions were apparently made after great thought and deliberation. and evidently with the view of misleading the country. The election is near ; these figures would not be pleasant reading for government supporters in the political campaign, and so they are hidden from the people. The Minister of Finance claims that the debt of this country has not been increased during the eight years this government has been in power. That may lie true if we take as gospel the system of book-keeping which the Finance Minister has adopted, but even according to the minister's own figures he shows that this government has taken an increased taxation from the people of $57,800,000 as compared with the revenue under the Conservative government in like period, and yet the Liberal government has only reduced the debt by $1,084,000. 1 ' would point

out that the Minister of Finance takes credit on revenue account, for payments on account of public lands to the extent of $1,695,000, an item which surely should be credited to capital account, because we are using up the capital in our lands, and by no possible argument could this be credited on the revenue side of the

account. The erroneous and false method of book-keeping which the Minister of Finance has adopted, is an imitation of the vicious principle which has been followed by the Ontario government and I think by some other provincial governments.

They are crediting year by year to revenue account the money which they derive from sales of timber lands, amounting to enormous sums. They are making no provision to replace the capital which is exhausted from year *to year ; and as time goes on this, instead of being an asset, will turn into a liability. The exports from Canada to the United States in 1896 were $44 -448,000. in 1903 $71,783,000, an increase of $27,000,000. Our imports in 1896 were $58,570,000 and in 1903, $137,000,000. The Minister of Trade and Commerce, while not very sure about it, stated that it was probably a beneficial thing for the imports and exports of a country to be about an even keel ; which is the same as saying that a man who has $1,000 a year and spends the whole of it is about as well off as he would be if he spent only $750 and saved $250 for a rainy day. I find that the products of the forest exported from this country in 1903 amounted to $36,000,000. If we take the value of that timber in the stump, or the capital value belonging to this country, we find that we drew upon our capital last year to the extent of over $7,000,000. which went to swell the exports of the country and to diminish our assets. The expenditure in a growing country is naturally an increasing one', and I would not for a moment suggest that the expenditure to-day should be on the same plane as it was in 1896. But what I do claim is that the expenditure has gone up by leaps and bounds, that it is far in excess of the requirements of the country, and that it has not been caused by necessary works or proper development, but largely by extravagant expenditure and expenditure on useless works. All the work done by this government has been done at a cost vastly in excess of the cost under Conservative rule, while allowing for any increase in wages that may have occurred since 1896. I need only give one instance, that is the cost of taking the census. Any one comparing the cost of that service in 1901 and in 1891 will see at a glance that the extravagance there has been utterly reckless and uncalled for. The government have had at their disposal, without increasing the debt of the country, over $57,000,000. What have they done with it or what have they done for it ? They promised us before they came into power that they would give us a fast Atlantic service ; they promised vastly improved navigation on the St. Lawrence and on the great lakes. They have spent some money on the St. Lawrence, but the navigation has not been improved, as is evident from the increasing number of wrecks. On the great lakes I think I may safely say that nothing has been Mr. OSLER.

done since 1896 to render navigation safer. I do not know of half a dozen lighthouses erected since 1896 on the coasts of the great lakes, where the business is so enormous that we almost wonder where it comes from. If you take a marine map of the LTnited States coast, which also includes our coast, showing the lighthouse stations on the American coast, and then look at what we have, every Canadian should be ashamed of the negligence that has been displayed by Canada in this matter. I know that within the last three weeks vessels coming down and overtaken by fogs have been delayed for days on the coast because of the lack of foghorns and lights. It is claimed by the Finance Minister that the debt of this country lias not been increased, but that the debt per head has decreased. The debt per head in 1896 was $49.08 ; now it is $46.69, a reduction of $2.39 per head ; but the debt is spread over a larger number of people, which makes it smaller per head. The rate of taxation in 1S96 was $5.46 per head; now it is $8.87, or an increase of $3.41 per head, not on the old population on which the debt was figured, but on the increased population, showing the increased taxes per head to be more than the reduction of the debt per head for the whole eight years. Now there is no question that our trade is increasing. Our trade ought to increase. We have a vast area of virgin soil, we have enormous natural resources, and we only require to delve into these from year to year to increase our wealth, without reference to any government, good or bad. But a good government ought to so develop our natural resources and bring them before the people that wealth shall be obtained from them at the lowest possible cost and to the advantage of the greatest number of people. But I claim that the government have been absolutely neglectful of this vast natural wealth. ' Since 1896, when we were just beginning to realize what we had in this country, the government had taken over $57,000,000 out of the people, and what have they done to show to the people what our natural wealth is ? The only item in the whole list of expenditures that shows a decrease is the geological survey. I contend this government would have been wise, and and it would have had the support of every one on this side of the House, had it taken a sum going into the millions, to find out for the people of this country, in detail as far as possible, the extent of our natural resources, and the best way to utilize them. This government have not taken one single step towards that end. We have in this country great water-powers, vast timber resources, and immense deposits of minerals. We do not know any more about a great part of this country than we did two hundred years ago, as we found when the Grand Trunk Pacific Bill and its mountains of information were laid on this table. From Nipigon for hundreds of miles to the east we have only the reports of a few

surveyors and prospectors, who went up and down the rivers. We have no cross surveys and no adequate knowledge of the country. I contend that the first duty of the government, when it came into power, and knowing the strides which this country was making, was to have devoted a large sum of money each year to a systematic exploration of our country from the Atlantic to the Pacific, so that we should have at least some little preliminary knowledge of what we own. We would then have been able to deal intelligently with any scheme that was presented to this House.

People anxious to invest would be able to know where to go with the prospect of finding what they wanted, and we would be in a position to ascertain, to some extent at all events, the value of our national heritage. We are as ignorant of that to-day practically as we were thirty years ago. If England is anxious about her coal supply and is appointing commissions to inquire into the question, and if England put on an export duty on coal to prevent her natural resources in that commodity being depleted, is it not equally the duty of this government to try and arrive at some idea of our natural resources ? We are depleting our timber at a rate which no one in Canada realizes. It is quite true that this timber is more or less under the control of the different provinces, but surely it is in the interests of the country at large that this government should suggest the taking of some steps in order to reach an agreement among the provinces on some plan for the reforestering of the immense tracts which are now being laid bare. The greatest wealth Canada possesses is being exhausted and without our getting practically any return compared with the enormous value we are losing. Although this matter comes not directly under the control of this parliament, surely it is something concerning which this parliament 1 might well take steps to initiate some policy or have some policy adopted by the provinces. If England is anxious about her coal, is it not time that we should be anxious about our timber ? In the United States their timber wealth has been enormously reduced, and the different States of the Union are beginning to realize that the greatest mistake they ever made was in not replanting the forests which were cut down. In the old world one of the most important branches of every government is the preservation of its timber resources, and the cutting of timber is there regarded as almost a sacred thing. That will be the case some day in this country, but the longer you put off dealing with the question, the greater will be our loss.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE BUDGET.
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LIB

Aaron Abel Wright

Liberal

Mr. WRIGHT.

Suppose we undertook to reforest the province of Ontario, would not the timber become the property of that province, and we won 1 d incur all the expense ?

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE BUDGET.
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June 9, 1904