June 1, 1904

LIB

Robert Holmes

Liberal

The DEPUTY .SPEAKER (Mr. Holmes).

The hon. gentleman can make a personal explanation so far as the direct charge! against him is concerned, but in doing so he cannot enter into a general statement as to policy.

Topic:   SUPPLY-MR. D. J. O'DONOGHUE.
Subtopic:   PERSONAL EXPLANATION-MR. WILLIAM ROCHE. '
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L-C

Andrew B. Ingram

Liberal-Conservative

Mr. INGRAM.

I am within my rights and I will stand by my rights. I do not nor did I support such a policy as that described by the hon. member (Mr. powan) because there was no such policy in existence. The duty on corn was seven and a half cents against the distiller for all whisky sold in Canada. That is the policy I supported and that is the policy to-day. The starch manufacturer had to pay seven and a half cents on American corn, and if he exported the manufactured article he received a rebate of two and a half cents. I supported a duty upon corn, and why did I do so? Look at the figures and you will see the reason. In 1903 there was imported free of duty 6,033,898 bushels of corn, to compete with the farmers in the corn-growing counties of Kent, Essex and Elgin, and I represent the county of Elgin and the farmers of that county. Does the member for Essex favour the removal of duty on corn, when in his own county they produced 3,603,765 bushels of corn, according to the statistics of the Bureau of Industries, for Ontario, for the year 1902, and that amount of corn is valued at $1,463,129.

Topic:   SUPPLY-MR. D. J. O'DONOGHUE.
Subtopic:   PERSONAL EXPLANATION-MR. WILLIAM ROCHE. '
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LIB

Mahlon K. Cowan

Liberal

Mr. COWAN.

Corn was 20 cents per bushel higher after the duty was taken off than it was before.

Topic:   SUPPLY-MR. D. J. O'DONOGHUE.
Subtopic:   PERSONAL EXPLANATION-MR. WILLIAM ROCHE. '
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CON

Rufus Henry Pope

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. POPE.

I think we were discussing something with reference to exhibitions and have rather wandered from the subject. I have had a great afternoon and this evening is a fitting complement to it. I went to the circus before six o'clock and have been at another circus ever since. I looked over the animals down there this afternoon, and while I found some larger animals there which we have not here, I do not think that the monkeys began to compare with the specimens we have in this House ; but coming back to the item under discussion, I understood from the Minister of Agriculture that one of the results which followed the Japan exhibition was a great increase in the export of butter and flour. I would like to ask him if it is really the case that we have increased our exports of butter to Japan as the result of that exhibition ?

Topic:   SUPPLY-MR. D. J. O'DONOGHUE.
Subtopic:   PERSONAL EXPLANATION-MR. WILLIAM ROCHE. '
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LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

I said that we had been exporting butter from the government creamery in Alberta steadily some years back to a small extent, and that since the exhibition that export had increased very materially. I think that we are now exporting about four times as much per month as we did before the exhibition.

Topic:   SUPPLY-MR. D. J. O'DONOGHUE.
Subtopic:   PERSONAL EXPLANATION-MR. WILLIAM ROCHE. '
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CON

Rufus Henry Pope

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. POPE.

Then general exports from Canada ?

Topic:   SUPPLY-MR. D. J. O'DONOGHUE.
Subtopic:   PERSONAL EXPLANATION-MR. WILLIAM ROCHE. '
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LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

I have not examined the trade and navigation returns and cannot tell.

Topic:   SUPPLY-MR. D. J. O'DONOGHUE.
Subtopic:   PERSONAL EXPLANATION-MR. WILLIAM ROCHE. '
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CON

Rufus Henry Pope

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. POPE.

I cannot believe that the hon. minister would intend to deceive this House by claiming results from exhibitions which have not followed them. The expenditure on these exhibitions has been questioned on the ground that it is very doubtful whether we get a good return for our money. In reply to that criticism, the minister told us that since the exhibition we had introduced Canadian flour into Japan and that Canadian flour was unknown there previously. Well, Sir, what do we find ? I find by the official returns that in the year 1900 we sent to that country 2.379 barrels of flour and that we have sent there as high as 3,035 barrels. But last year, 1903. we only sent 611 barrels. Evidently therefore the minister's statement that the exhibition was the cause of the introduction of Canadian flour into Japan was absolutely wrong. Not only was that statement wrong, but the trade, instead of increasing as a consequence of that exhibition, has decreased. Last year, after the exhibition, we only sent one-fifth the quantity of flour which we had sent three years previous. I do not like to say that the hon. gentleman intended wilfully to deceive this House, but the statistics are there, and he has just as free access to them as anybody else ; and when he stands up here and asks us to vote an increase of $50,000 for exhibition purposes, he owes it to his position as a minister, when he at-temps to justify that increase, to justify it on statements which are absolutely correct and not on imaginary facts.

With regard to butter, we have the same condition of things. Five or six years ago, we were shipping more butter to Japan than we did last year. Last year we shipped 8,000 pounds, but we shipped as high as 12,000 pounds three years ago. I am not going to say that these exhibitions do not do good. I hope they do. I think it is well 'that these exhibitions should be held in countries with which we can encourage trade, but I do not think they are of much use in countries with which we are doing less and less trade every year. It may be good policy to have an exhibit in St. Louis, which will show to intending settlers the resources of this country in the shape of minerals, products of the soil and so forth, but I warn the hon. minister, that if he wishes to have the respect of this House, he will see that what information he gives is based on fact and is not misleading.

Topic:   SUPPLY-MR. D. J. O'DONOGHUE.
Subtopic:   PERSONAL EXPLANATION-MR. WILLIAM ROCHE. '
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LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

The hon. gentleman is slightly wrong in his dates, and what he

has said justifies the claim I made. Our exports to Japan of flour a few years ago were rather large, because certain millers sent a large consignment to that country. They sent that shipment as a result of the visit of an agent sent there by my hon. colleague the Minister of Trade and Commerce some four or five years ago. Following his visit, there was a considerable shipment of flour to Japan, but it was not advertised, the markets were not prepared for it, it was not a success, and the result was that in the few years following there was hardly any shipment of flour to that country at all.

Topic:   SUPPLY-MR. D. J. O'DONOGHUE.
Subtopic:   PERSONAL EXPLANATION-MR. WILLIAM ROCHE. '
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CON

Rufus Henry Pope

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. POPE.

What few years ?

Topic:   SUPPLY-MR. D. J. O'DONOGHUE.
Subtopic:   PERSONAL EXPLANATION-MR. WILLIAM ROCHE. '
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LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

Ending the 30th of June last. We sent some 3,000 barrels in 19001901. In 1902 and 1903 the shipments decreased. The exhibition in Japan opened in March of 1903 and did not close until August, 1903. after the end of the fiscal year 1903, which the hon. gentleman has quoted, and the results of the exhibition in Japan had no effect whatever on the trade of a year which closed before the close of the exhibition. The result of the exhibition on our trade have been in the fiscal year commencing July 1st, 1903. The figures which I quoted and the statement I made, have been absolutely correct within my own knowledge.

Topic:   SUPPLY-MR. D. J. O'DONOGHUE.
Subtopic:   PERSONAL EXPLANATION-MR. WILLIAM ROCHE. '
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L-C

Samuel Hughes

Liberal-Conservative

Mr. SAM. HUGHES.

What are the figures?

Topic:   SUPPLY-MR. D. J. O'DONOGHUE.
Subtopic:   PERSONAL EXPLANATION-MR. WILLIAM ROCHE. '
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LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

I gave the figures with regard to the shipments of flour.

Topic:   SUPPLY-MR. D. J. O'DONOGHUE.
Subtopic:   PERSONAL EXPLANATION-MR. WILLIAM ROCHE. '
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L-C

Samuel Hughes

Liberal-Conservative

Mr. SAM. HUGHES.

Can the minister give any figures in relation to the steady increase in the shipments of flour and similar products from the United States to Japan?

Topic:   SUPPLY-MR. D. J. O'DONOGHUE.
Subtopic:   PERSONAL EXPLANATION-MR. WILLIAM ROCHE. '
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LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

No. I have stated what I know to be the absolute result of our flour and bread making exhibit in Japan. I know of orders placed in Canada to the extent of a considerable number of carloads as a direct result of our exhibit. ,1 stated also that as a result of our exhibit the butter export has increased to something like four times as much per month as formerly. I also stated that other people l'.ad received special orders. I recall a re: quest which came from the Consul General of Japan to put a certain person in \ okohoma into communication with butter makers and producers in Canada as they wish to open a direct trade and to place orders for such butter.

Topic:   SUPPLY-MR. D. J. O'DONOGHUE.
Subtopic:   PERSONAL EXPLANATION-MR. WILLIAM ROCHE. '
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CON

William Humphrey Bennett

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BENNETT.

Were any of these purchases made by the Japanese government in consequence of the war ?

Topic:   SUPPLY-MR. D. J. O'DONOGHUE.
Subtopic:   PERSONAL EXPLANATION-MR. WILLIAM ROCHE. '
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LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

Not that I am aware of.

Topic:   SUPPLY-MR. D. J. O'DONOGHUE.
Subtopic:   PERSONAL EXPLANATION-MR. WILLIAM ROCHE. '
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CON

Joseph Elijah Armstrong

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. ARMSTRONG.

Is the butter produced in Alberta of the best quality we can Mr. FISHER.

*

produce in Canada ? If it is not, should we not send other shipments of the best that we have?

Topic:   SUPPLY-MR. D. J. O'DONOGHUE.
Subtopic:   PERSONAL EXPLANATION-MR. WILLIAM ROCHE. '
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LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

The butter made at the government creameries at Alberta is of very high quality. I shall not say it is of the very best quality in Canada. The butter in Japan was not all from the government creameries:1 That from the government creameries compared favourably with any other butter on the Japanese market, but there was an exhibition of butter from Ontario which was superior to the butter of the Northwest creameries. There were a number of different exhibits there ; and I may say, generally speaking, that our butter compared favourably with any butter that was sent to the Japanese market from other countries.

Topic:   SUPPLY-MR. D. J. O'DONOGHUE.
Subtopic:   PERSONAL EXPLANATION-MR. WILLIAM ROCHE. '
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CON

Rufus Henry Pope

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. POPE.

The hon. minister is changing his position. He told this House that Canadian flour was an unknown quantity.

Topic:   SUPPLY-MR. D. J. O'DONOGHUE.
Subtopic:   PERSONAL EXPLANATION-MR. WILLIAM ROCHE. '
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June 1, 1904