May 13, 1904

CON

Edward Frederick Clarke

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CLARKE.

Failing to make as good a case as he hoped to make, he thinks it is in keeping with his dignity and with the very high position he occupies to abuse those who are advocating that Canadian labour should not be discriminated against at least in this great Canadian national undertaking, and he asks me what have I been doing since I received these communications ? On March 21, I brought this matter to the attention of the House before I had received any complaints at all, and I have referred to the matter twice since then. If the hon. gentleman had looked up ' Hansard,' he would have found that out, and also that the hon. member for Winnipeg (Mr. Puttee) had brought this matter, to the attention of the House twice, so that since March 21 this very question has been before parliament five times, and notwithstanding that fact what did the minister do ? If we were neglecting our duty in only bringing this matter before the House five times since the 21st of March, what has he been doing since the matter was first brought to the attention of the government? Does he think that because he has written two or three letters, intended for publication, to Mr. Hays, declaring that Canadians must not be discriminated against, that that will be an atonement for the neglect which has characterized his department since this matter was brought to his attention? Does he think the working people, the surveyors and the engineers will be satisfied with such a lame excuse, or that the vomiting of abuse on myself and other hon. gentlemen who speak on this matter will be considered as a sufficient answer to the statements we have made face to face and have given him an opportunity of denying since the allegations against the Grand Trunk Pacific were made. He telegraphed for a man to come down here and substantiate them. On the 13th of May he tells us that Mr. Griffith is here, and he regards that as a discharge of ail the obligations on himself in this matter, and as a sufficient atonement for his lack of energy and lack of zeal in investigating the statements. I have brought this matter before him three times. The first reference was on March 21. I did not receive the first communication until March 22nd. The Minister's reply to my question will be found on page 251. On page 553, I again brought

the matter up, and asked the following questions :

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GRAND TRUNK PACIFIC RAILWAY-ALIENS AS SURVEYORS.

CON

Mr. CLARKE asked:

Conservative (1867-1942)

1. What answer, if any, has keen made to the protest received by the government on the 16th of March, 1904, from the Dominion Institute of Amalgamated Engineers, respecting the employment of aliens on the surveys being made in connection rvith the National Transcontinental Railway?

2. Have any instructions been issued by the Department of Labour? And if so, on what date, and of what nature, respecting the enforcement of the Alien Labour Law by the deporting of aliens, alleged to be employed on the surveys being made in connection with the National Transcontinental Railway?

3. Is it the intention of the government, in its new agreement with the Grand Trunk Railway Company, to provide for the employment of British subjects, as surveyors and engineers, in the work of surveying and construction of the new Transcontinental Railway?

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LIB

Hon. H. R. EMMERSON (Minister of Railways and Canals): (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Liberal

1. The communication was acknowledged and promised consideration..

2. This relates to the Department of Labour.

3. It is the intention of the government, in its new agreement with the Grand Trunk Railway Company, to provide for the employment of British subjects as surveyors and engineers, in the work of surveying and construction of the new Transcontinental Railway?

3. The matter is under consideration.

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LIB

James Sutherland (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Hon. JAS. SUTHERLAND (Minister of Public Works).

In the absence of the Minister of Labour (Hon. Sir William Mulock) I would answer question No. 2, as follows: It is not the practice of the government to issue general instructions respecting deportations, but to deal with each case as it arises.

That is the answer to the second question. The hon. gentleman's colleague saddled the hon. the Minister of Labour on March 28, with the responsibility of dealing with this matter, and when in respectful language we ask him whether he has or has not dealt with it, he charges us witli being neglectful of our duty in not bringing it to the attention of the House. On the 28th of March his attention was brought to it, and one of his colleagues said : ' It is in the Department of Labour.' He seems to think he has discharged his duty by writing letters to Mr. Wainwright and Mr. Hays. '

The gentlemen who made the complaints offered to come down and make good their allegations before the Minister of Labour. It never suggested itself to the hon. gentleman that it was the proper thing to do in view of this serious state op affairs, in view of the fact that Canadian surveyors and engineers were being ignored, and he never thought it worth his while since the 28th March or the 2nd of April to get further information in respect to this matter from the men who made these charges. But I brought this matter up again, as will be seen by reference to page 080 of ' Hansard.'

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G.T.P. RY-ALIENS AS SURVEYORS.

CON

Mr. CLARKE asked:

Conservative (1867-1942)

1. Has the Minister of Labour received any communication from Mr. George L. Griffith, of Winnipeg, provincial Secretary for Manitoba of the Dominion of Canada Institute of Amalgamated Engineers, calling attention to the number of aliens employed on the surveys of the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway, and giving the names of aliens employed in connection with such work at Winnipeg and Edmonton?

2. When was such communication received?

3. Is it the intention of the government to take action upon Mr. Griffith's communication, and to order the deportation of the aliens complained of?

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?

Hon. Sir WILLIAM MULOCK (Postmaster General).

1. Yes.

2. One received on April 6th, and two to-day.

3. The Alien Labour Act, as amended, contains provisions entitling any private citizen to bring an action for alleged violation of the Act, and on a conviction being secured, the government would be prepared to direct deportation. The law does not authorize the government to bring such action.

Three times since my attention was drawn to this matter I have brought it to the attention of the hon. Minister of Labour, and although I did so I am charged with gross neglect of my duty, while the hon. gentleman plumes himself upon having discharged his duty. He has had this matter before himself and his colleagues since January last, and he has allowed Mr. Wainwright and Mr. Hays to insult him by neglecting the ordinary courtesy of even acknowledging the communications which he sent to them about it. I am willing that the artisans of the constituency I represent should be the arbiters between us as to whether I have not tried to serve them and serve Canadian engineers and surveyors by at least drawing the attention of the government to the charges they have made and by demanding that these charges should bt investigated and justice done to them in preference to the aliens who are being brought into this country. The responsibility does not rest on my shoulders of enforcing the Alien Labour Law. It rests primarily and fully upon the shoulders if the hon. Minister of Labour ; and squirm as he may, and explain as he may, the men who have been aggrieved, and who have felt themselves aggrieved, will place the responsibility upon the right shoulders. I a in perfectly satisfied as to that.

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LIB

William Mulock (Minister of Labour; Postmaster General)

Liberal

Sir WILLIAM MULOCK.

Mr. Chairman, I am quite prepared to accept any responsibility devolving upon me in the matter. I am quite satisfied to place my record alongside that of the hon. gentleman on this subject. The hon. gentleman has said that I have abused him. I think I began ir. deference to the suggestion of the hon. leader of the opposition who, before six , o'clock, made an inquiry in regard to the

subject, and I thought it proper to let him know the substance of the correspondence as far as it indicated the intentions of the government. I did not have any idea that I was in the first instance to be honoured by such a reception as the hon. member for West Toronto gave me. He says 1 abused him. Pray, if I abused him, what did he do to me before that ? I might complain of his having begun it and I would ask him to-morrow to read the choice and cultured language in which he charged me with the grossest neglect and in which he assailed me with the most unqualified abuse. Then, he complains that I should point out any of his own shortcomings. I think that what he is indignant at is that he finds that the government has got upon solid ground and is taking the proper position and he finds most of his political capital somewhat destroyed. If I had the correspondence here, which, I understand has been sent to the ' Hansard ' room, I think I could read a few passages from the letters that have given him so much worry and which have so disturbed his peace of mind this evening. He says that they were written for publication. Pray what is his speech delivered for ? Does he expect that it will never be heard of outside ?

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CON

Edward Frederick Clarke

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CLARKE.

I was trying to stir up the minister.

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LIB

William Mulock (Minister of Labour; Postmaster General)

Liberal

Sir WILLIAM MULOCK.

That is a very desirable thing to do if the minister is in need of it. In my judgment before inviting a large number of persons, a delegation or otherwise, to come to Ottawa or elsewhere to determine the rights and wrongs of this question, the first step is to ascertain what the parties to the issue themselves think and say about it. The representative of the engineers says one thing and we are desirous of ascertaining what the representative of the company says in reply. If Mr. Hays were to admit the whole case it would be unnecessary to bring witnesses from Winnipeg specially to hear their evidence, nor would it be common sense to send men scouring this country to use up the taxpayers' money in a useless effort. My hon. friend wants us to spend money in a useless way to pretend to do something instead of really doing something. We are not here to engage in such work ; we are here to do business. If to-morrow the Grand Trunk Railway Company admit that these statements are correct, we do not need to send witnesses all over Canada to find out whether they are correct or not, we do not need to bring delegations to Ottawa to prove them and to ascertain where we stand.

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CON

Edward Frederick Clarke

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CLARKE.

Is it the practice of the Department of Labour, when charges thal aliens have been brought into the country have been made, to write to the parties interested to ascertain whether the inform-Sir WILLIAM MULOCK.

ation is correct, as was done in the case of the Grand Trunk Pacific ?

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LIB

William Mulock (Minister of Labour; Postmaster General)

Liberal

Sir WILLIAM MULOCK.

I cannot say whether it is the invariable practice. These matters are conducted departmentally to a large extent, but in a case of this kind, when the matten was brought to my attention, it seemed a very proper thing, that, before attempting to deport these men, we should inquire into the facts. That inquiry is only a means to an end and that must be the deportation of these men if they have violated the law. It would be a high handed procedure for the attorney general of Canada to arrest a large number oi men, take them to the frontier and expel them from the country unless he had the security that the law' affords. Thereto e, he should be reasonably sure of his ground before interfering with people in this country. It is the part of prudence. If, for example, we had seized these men, sent officers all over Canada to find them and when found sent them out of the country, what would have been the consequences? It would be a serious matter to arrest a lot of foreigners and to send them out of the country unless we were justified by the law. It would not only be an outrage upon these individuals but it-might involve us in complications of a very serious character. It is well enough for the hon. gentleman to say that we should rush ia and take a step of that kind. The hon. gentleman said he was not responsible. Now, I quite agree with him, that, from Ids remarks, he is not responsible. He is asking us to do these rush things without observing proper prudence. That would not be the course that any responsible gov-ei nment ought to pursue. We have a duty tc perform, we have responsibility and he would be the first one to criticise us if we had not in the hist instance taken a reasonable procedure such as that which we have adopted. We are now getting into close quarters with the Grand Trunk ; they will not be much longer able to evade the distinct issue or admission, and we will then know what the next step is.

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CON

Robert Laird Borden (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. R. L. BORDEN.

It seems to me that if the government had not been in pretty close quarters with the Grand Trunk, these men would have been deported long ago. This is not a new question : it was brought up last session by my hon. friend from North Victoria (Mr. Sam. Hughes). The attention of the government was directed to the subject or ought to have been directed to the subject through the Department of Labour, by resolutions which were passed ac a meeting of engineers held in the city of Montreal in the latter part of January last. At least five times during the present session the attention of the government has been brought to this matter. What has been the result ? The result has been, that the

Grand Trunk Railway have been humbugging the government for the last six weeks.

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CON
CON

Robert Laird Borden (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. R. L. BORDEN.

1 will only go as far back as six weeks. The Minister of Labour talks about being cautious. Why, I have the names here-the Minister of Labour has read them-of some 20 or 22 men whose residences in the United States were given to the government six weeks ago, and all that has been done by the government since, is to write letters to the Grand Trunk Railway Company, to which they received either no answers or very evasive and indefinite answers. The Minister of Labour thinks this the most extraordinary diligence on the part of the government in a matter of so great importance to our people. I understand that it has been represented to the government that 90 per cent of the engineers, transitmen, topographers, draftsmen, chaiumen, and picket men, are American citizens. I don't know whether that statement is true or not, but it has been so represented to the government as far back as the 18th of April, nearly a month ago, and not one thing has been done except to write some letters to the Grand Trunk Company, to which no answers, or merely evasive answers have been given. I understand that the Minister of Labour promises an investigation by commission. I imagine we may expect to receive a report from that commission about the time these surveys shall have been completed, and then, of course, it will be exceedingly comforting for these men to know, after the work has been finished, that the representations made to the government when the work commenced have turned out to be absolutely correct. The situation is aggravated by the fact that surveys are being made by the Grand Trunk Pacific, not only on that portion of the line which they are to build, but on that portion of the line which the government is to build. The government is not only permitting the law to be transgressed on the western division, but it is permitting the Grand Trunk Railway to evade the law with regard to surveys on the eastern division, and these surveys, according to a statement made by the government this session, may be adopted by the government and paid for by them if they proved satisfactory. The public money of * this country, spent in building a railway owned by the government. is to be given to American citizens in defiance of our own alien labour law. That is the actual situation. One would think that when the government commits the making of these surveys to the company it would stipulate-without the question being raised in parliament at all-that these surveys should be made by Canadians. One would think that the Department of Labour

would not require to be galvanized into activity under conditions of that kind.

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L-C

Samuel Hughes

Liberal-Conservative

Mr. SAM. HUGHES.

They promised to give us a national road built by Canadian engineers.

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?

Mr. R.@

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LIB

William Mulock (Minister of Labour; Postmaster General)

Liberal

Sir WILLIAM MULOCK.

I think he will be disappointed.

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CON

Robert Laird Borden (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. R. L. BORDEN.

He will not be disappointed unless the government manifests a greater diligence and activity in the future than it has exercised during the past two months. The names and addresses of these aliens are here; they have been in the hands of the government since the 10th of April. When these names were submitted to the Grand Trunk Railway, is there any reason why that company could not answer in twenty-four hours, whether or not these men are in their employ and whether they are aliens ? Here are the names :

G. A. Kyle, divisional engineer, residence, 1320 North Yorkima Ave., Tacoma, Wash.

G. M. Kyle, engineer, residence, 1320 North Yorkima Ave., Tacoma. Wash.

- Allan, office engineer, residence, St. Paul, Minnesota.

- Kellar, engineer, residence, Cleveland, Ohio.

J. Heaman, engineer, residence, Oklahoma.

Raymond Heckman, engineer, residence, Tacoma, Washington.

William Meyers, engineer, residence, Portland, Oregon.

- Nutting, locating engineer, residence, Oregon, United States.

W. Mason, draughtsman, residence, Tacoma, United States.

M. H. Goodman, draughtsman, (now transferred to Grand Trunk Pacific Office, Montreal).

- Van Arsdaile, divisional engineer,, residence. Portland. Oregon.

- McNeil, district engineer, residence, Indiana.

W. Jones, engineer, residence, St. Paul, Minnesota.

- Hare, engineer, residence, Wisconsin.

Wm. Mann, sr., engineer, residence, 1215

Stopple St., Cincinnati, Ohio.

W. Mann, jr., engineer, residence 1215 Stopple St., Cincinnati, Ohio.

- Hicks, transitman, residence, Tacoma, Washington.

- Anderson, topographer, residence, Seattle, Washington.

The Minister of Labour lias these names as I understand.

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May 13, 1904