May 10, 1904

CON

David Tisdale

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. TISDALE.

I rise to a point of order. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Scott) is now aggravating his language or I would not rise to object. He knows quite as well as you do, Mr. Speaker, that you can only allude to a member in this House in connection with his constituency. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Scott) was called to order, and he starts out to break that rule of the House in a worse manner by making an insinuation against the hon. member (Mr. Osier). He acts in defiance of the rule of the House and attempts to put the hon. member (Mr. Osier) in a false position.

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LIB

Thomas Walter Scott

Liberal

Mr. SCOTT.

I am the last man in the House who would endeavour to evade the

rules. I am perfectly willing to consider the objection raised by the hon. member for Bothwel'l (Mr. Clancy) and to withdraw the word ' man ' as applied to his friend and colleague from West Toronto and I now proceed to do so. But, Mr. Speaker, who is this member -who considers it within his dignity to attack the character, or to insinuate against the character of his fellow members ? Last year, in speaking of my colleague from Saskatchewan and myself, he used words something like these :

These members of such character.

I tell him now, and I ask him now, and I dare him now ; if he has anything to

say

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CON

George Taylor (Chief Opposition Whip; Whip of the Conservative Party (1867-1942))

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. TAYLOR.

Order. Address the chair.

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LIB

Thomas Walter Scott

Liberal

Mr. SCOTT.

I am certainly addressing the chair. I ask him and tell him and dare him now, if he has anything to charge against me, to charge it right here on the door of the House, and not use methods which if it were parliamentary I might de-cribe, not use the methods which he has resorted to of making insinuations against personal character. I am nothing, Mr. Speaker, but a poor man whom the electors of West Assiniboia have honoured by sending me here as their representative, but as long as I am here as the representative of the people of West Assiniboia, I am not going to be deterred from ventilating their grievances on the floor of this House by the mere fact that I may possibly give some offence to the member for West Toronto, and to the corporations with whcih he is so closely associated. The statute of 1890 was put on the table yesterday, and it absolutely proves the assertion I made last year ; that this gentleman was a charter holder of the Calgary and Edmonton Company. The explanation he has made this afternoon, about the initial companies has no bearing at all upon the case. There were a half a dozen companies, defunct companies, each one of them out of existence, when these two companies were organized which proceeded with his aid to take up this business. The Calgary and Edmonton mortgage deed is in my desk, or at least a copy of it ; the Act relating to the Qu'Appelle, Long Lake and Saskatchewan Company is to be found in the library. I have placed the material portion of the prospectus on the record. All these documents contradict absolutely and indisputably and beyond any question, the assertion which the hon. gentlemen (Mr. Osier); made here last year, and which he has dared to repeat in the House this afternoon. They contradict absolutely, the statement that the lands were sold with the bonds or that it was possible under the legislation passed for the lands to be sold with the bonds. And while it may be termed an anonymous letter because I was not able to divulge to the House the

name of the writer ; the letter of the bondholder which I read this afternoon proves that the lands were not sold with the bonds; and that the bondholders are reaping no advantage at all from the enormous land grant voted by this parliament to aid in the construction of these railways. But as I say I do not need the letters. The letters did not purport to contradict the assertions of the hon. member for West Toronto ; they simply contained certain comments which outside, people knowing the facts surrounding these transactions were able to make. One was a gentleman who bought some of the bonds and is a sufferer through this transaction which the hon. gentleman from West Toronto is so intimately connected with; the hon. gentleman who to-day is so fearful about the sacredness of Canadian securities in the old country money market. Let me repeat, that the case which I made yesterday does not in any way depend upon letters which were read, but upon documents of public record which I placed' upon ' Hansard ' yesterday, and which go to prove that besides making away with at least a couple 'of millions-at least two and a half millions of cash out of the bond proceeds, these creations of Conservative legislation ; these two companies of which the hon. member from West Toronto was, and is, I believe, a member, made away also with the greater part of the land grants. These public records prove that instead of giving the bondholders of the road the benefit of the land grants-and the information which is coming to us from the old country proves, that the Calgary and Edmonton last year sold more than half a million dollars worth of land, which did not go to the betterment of the road,-these companies I say, simply sold the lands to themselves. Two land companies were formed : the Calgary and Edmonton Land Company, and the Qu'Ap-pelle, Long Lake and Saskatchewan Land Company, and the hon. gentleman and his companies simply took the land in one hand and turned it over to the other hand, and made it impossible that the roads should ever receive any benefit from the resources which parliament voted to aid in and to procure the construction of these roads. But, after all, Mr. Speaker, the country will not be very much concerned with respect to my hon. friend (Mr. Osier) or with respect to myself. The people of that country are particularly concerned in getting some relief from the conditions under which they are actually suffering. There are thousands of people in that country at this moment who want seed grain, who want implements with which to work their lands and put in their crops, and if they do not get these things within a couple of week,s the whole year will be lost and great damage will be done not only to the people themselves, but to the whole people of Canada because of the injurious effect it will have on immigration.

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LIB

Thomas Walter Scott

Liberal

Mr. SCOTT.

X believe it has been charged that in the remarks which I made yesterday I have been attempting to injure the cause of immigration by placing the facts before this House and before the people of this country. Well, I think it has been for a long time an exploded idea that the proper method of dealing with a sore is to attempt to cover it up and ignore it. The proper mode of procedure is to take the most immediate and effective steps to bring about a remedy; and it seemed to me yesterday that the most effective step I could take was to lay this very serious matter before the government, this House and the people of this country. I am only sorry that the hon. gentleman who controls the destines of the Qu'Appelle, Long Lake and Saskatchewan Railway, which for the last month has been out of business, and which during the last winter has not given a regular service, has not seen fit to say something from his place in the House which might give a measure of re-assurance to the thousands of people who have gone into that country, and who, at the present time are at the mercy of that railway. A bridge has been swept away and four or five miles of the railway are under water. Passengers and mails, however, are being carried over these breaks ; and, if so, the provisions and supplies which the people require can be carried over also, if the necessary efforts are put forth, if sufficient expenditure is incurred. The hon. gentleman represents the company which has received such enormous aid from the people of this country, and it is his place not only to say something but to do something to relieve the sufferings of the people who live along the line of that railway of his.

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Mr. F. F. CLARICE@West Toronto

Mr. Speaker, I do not desire to take up the time of the House,

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LIB

Lawrence Geoffrey Power (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER.

I would suggest to the hon. gentleman that the subject had better be left to the members who are immediately concerned.

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Some hon. MEMBERS

No, no.

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Henry Elvins Spencer

Mr. SPEAICER.

The remarks of these hon. members have been in the nature of personal explanation ; and I think it would be much more conducive to the good order of the House and the expedition of business if the discussion were confined to them. X do not want to give a ruling, but if I have to, I shall be obliged to rule to that effect.

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Mr. F. F. CLARICE@West Toronto

I will only ask the privilege of speaking a few minutes in order to draw your attention to the extraordinary position taken by the hon. gentleman who has just resumed his seat.

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Henry Elvins Spencer

Mr. SPEAICER.

Will the hon. member allow me to state what I understand the rule to be, and then, if it is the desire of the House that he shall speak on the subject, I

28G6-

shall say no more ? The rule, as laid down in Peel, is.

The discussion on a matter of personal explanation strictly limited to the members directly concerned. It is not in order for other hon. members to intervene.

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CON

Robert Laird Borden (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. R. L. BORDEN.

This Is on a motion to adjourn the House.

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LIB

Lawrence Geoffrey Power (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER.

On a motion to adjourn the House, the hon. member who moved it has a right to reply, but no other hon. member has a right to speak.

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CON

Edward Cochrane

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. COCHRANE.

One ruling to-day and a different ruling yesterday. Choke people off one day and let people speak another day.

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CON

Edward Frederick Clarke

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CLARKE.

With your permission, Mr. Speaker, I would like the privilege of addressing the House for a few minutes, because 1 think the position taken by the hon. member for West Assiniboia (Mr. Seott) is a most extraordinary one, and some decision should be reached as to how much of the time of the House is to be wasted by questions of this kind being brought up time and again.

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LIB

Lawrence Geoffrey Power (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER.

That is tile reason I tried to stop a useless discussion at this time. I think I am doing my duty as presiding officer in trying to limit useless discussion, if I can.

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CON

Edward Frederick Clarke

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CLARKE.

I will not attempt to address the House if you decide that I am not in order. I desire to support your hands in preserving the rules of the House. If you declare that I am out of ?rder, I will not attempt to go on.

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Some hon. MEMBERS

Order.

Mr. SPEAKER, I have not given a ruling. I have called attention to the rule, and if it is the wish of the House to hear the hon. member, I have nothing further to say.

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CON
LIB

Thomas Osborne Davis

Liberal

Mr. DAVIS.

I wish to raise a point of order. The hon. gentleman is quoting from A past debate.

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May 10, 1904