April 26, 1904

CON

Robert Laird Borden (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. R. L. BORDEN.

The hon. member for West Toronto (Mr. Osier) has said that he said ' aye. ' It is the custom for the speaker, in such a case as this, to say ' in my opinion the noes have it,' and then the call for the ' yeas and nays ' can be made. That is the procedure that 1 have always seen adopted.

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CON

Samuel Barker

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BARKER.

I would call your attention to the fact that not only did certain gentlemen on this side say ' aye ' when the question was submitted, but over twenty gentlemen stood up in favour of the amendment before you put the question of the other side.

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LIB

Lawrence Geoffrey Power (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER.

I have given a ruling which I think I cannot in anyway withdraw from. Of course, if it is the unanimous sense of the House that there should be a division I am in the hands of the House. Otherwise I can only repeat that I did not hear anyone s$y he was in favour of the motion. And I am not blind, nor am I deaf. I certainly saw no one rise nor did I hear anyone say ' aye ' when the motion was put. I take it that, no one having voted in favour of the amendments the yeas and nays cannot be asked for.

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CON

James Clancy

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CLANCY.

Several hon. gentlemen have stated that they did say ' aye ' when the question was put. I can scarcely think it would be a fair thing to say that you, Mr. Speaker, had not heard it and therefore that it was not said. I have no doubt you did not hear it. But when an hon. gentleman rises in his place and says he did say ' yea,' I do not think you have any power but one, and that is to order the ' yeas and nays ' to be recorded, as so many gentlemen stood up to require that that should be done.

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LIB

Lawrence Geoffrey Power (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER.

The question is on the main motion.

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CON

Robert Laird Borden (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. R. L. BORDEN.

No. Before the main motion is put, Mr. Speaker, I move that the House do now adjourn. And I do this to signify my disapproval of the course pursued by you to-night. This course I never saw pursued Before, and I hope X shall never see it pursued by any Speaker in the chair again. A motion was presented to this House by my hon. friend from West Toronto (Mr. Clarke), and it was seconded by my hon. friend from East Grey (Sir. Sproule). An hon. gentleman in this House

whose word you are bound to take-at least every other hon. member would be bound to take it-has said that he called out 'aye,' in response to the question from the chair for those in favour of the motion. There was at least that with which you are confronted. And, on the other side of the House we have had cries of ' no ' in response to the question. Hitherto I have always heard the Speaker, after putting the question, say ' in my opinion the ayes have it,' or ' the noes have it,' as the case may be; and then, if the vote was desired it could be demanded. That course was not pursued tonight. I think it should have been pursued. And I see no reason why, under the circumstances the vote should not have been taken. And I say that I regret that in this instance the Chair has seen tit to pursue the course which has been followed. I do not think it will add to the decorum of the House to have incidents of this kind arise. Every one in this House certainly understood, and you, Sir, it seems to me, must have understood, that this motion was not put as a mere idle form. I have seen, during the regime of Mr. Speaker Edgar and those who succeeded him, difficulties of this kind at once met by the Speaker in accordance with what he believed to be the .true understanding of those on one side of the House or the other.

I do not think it desirable that we should have any practice of this kind pursued with respect to hon. gentlemen on this side of the House, I regret very much that, under the circumstance, you, Sir, have seen fit to pursue the course you have pursued to-night.

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LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LATJRIER (Prime Minister).

I am sorry that my hon. friend (Mr. R. L. Borden) has taken this course in order to show his disapproval, as he says, of the ruling of the Speaker. He says that it is the rule for the Speaker to say, after the [DOT] ayes ' and ' noes ' have spoken, * in my opinion the ayes have it,' or ' the nays have it,' that is the rule, certainly. But the Speaker could not do it to-night because there were no ' ayes.'

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CON

George Taylor (Chief Opposition Whip; Whip of the Conservative Party (1867-1942))

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. TAYLOR.

The hon. member for West Toronto (Mr. Osier) says he said ' aye.'

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LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LATJRIER.

If the hon. gentleman (Mr. Osier) spoke, he spoke in such a tone that nobody heal'd him We know what oiten takes place when motions are presented. They are sometimes moved simply to assert the opinions of one side or the other. Of course sometimes they are put wich a view to challenging the opinion of the House ; but, in this case, when the motion was put, nobody said ' aye,' except the hon. member for West Toronto (Mr. Osier). Generally, when a motion is put upon which a vote is expected you have a volley of ' ayes,' and a countervolley of ' noes.' This is followed by the Speaker's declaration that in his opinion the ' ayes ' or the ' noes ' as may be have it.

But you could not do it in this case, Sir, because there were no ' ayes,' and you naturally came to the conclusion that hon. gentlemen did not wish to vote. I appeal to my hon. friend (Mr. R. L. Borden) if it is not the case that the Speaker waited a few moments for hon. gentlemen to say whether they would vote, and they did not stand up.

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CON

Edward Cochrane

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. COCHRANE.

Yes they did.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER, My hon. friend (Mr. Cochrane) is mistaken. Nobody stood up until after the Speaker had declared the motion lost. There was no sharp practice in this. The opposition has always the right to move amendments, as many as they please. Nobody would take advantage of them. But it seems to me, that, in this case they are victims of their own negligence.

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CON

Thomas Simpson Sproule

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SPROULE.

The practice in this case is quite well understood, and if the usual course had been followed, as laid down in Bourinot, this difficulty would not have arisen. Here is what Bourinot says :

Having read the question on which the. decision of the House is to be first given, he takes the sense of the members by saying : ' Those who are in favour of the question (or amendment) will say content (or yea) ; those who are of the contrary opinion will say non-content (or nay).' When the supporters and opponents of the question have given their voice for and against the same, the Speaker will say : ' I think the contents (or yeas) have it ' ; or ' I think the non-contents (or nays) have it ' ; or 'I cannot decide.' If the House does not acquiesce in his decision, the yeas and nays (or contents or non-pontents) may be called in.

Whenever the Speaker announces that the [DOT] ayes ' have it or the ' noes ' have it, then is the proper time to call for the ' yeas and nays,' and then comes in the rule that if five members stand up calling for the ' yeas and nays ' they are entitled to have them recorded. What we did in this case was what is usually done, and it seems strange that the House should be denied what it undoubtedly has a right to expect. It is not the proper thing to declare a motion lost before giving an opportunity of asking for the yeas and nays.

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L-C

Samuel Hughes

Liberal-Conservative

Mr. SAM. HUGHES.

I submit, Mr. Speaker, that you are entirely out of order, because you have not followed the constitution. The constitution has laid down that there is a certain procedure to be followed in putting a question, and I maintain that that procedure has not yet been followed. I therefore take the liberty of appealing from the ruling of the Speaker.

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?

Mr. R. L.@

BORDEN moved that the House do now adjourn.

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CON

Charles Eusèbe Casgrain

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. OASGRAIN.

I think the motion before you is that the House do now adjourn. It seems to me after the reading from Bouri-Sir WILFRID LAURIER.

not that my hon. friend-has just given to the House, that it is plain there is a misunderstanding between some members ol' the House and you, Sir. That misunderstanding is important. By your ruling, the House, and this side of the House in particular, will be deprived of its undoubted right of dividing upon a question which is, in the minds of those who have put it before you, a question of great moment. My hon. friend has read Bourinot, and I shall have to read it again so as to comment upon it. I think with a little good will this question can be easily settled, and I hope it will be the unanimous sense of the House that this misunderstanding will not be taken as a basis for depriving this side of the House of the undoubted constitutional right which we have of dividing upon this question. Now, what should be done ? Bourinot says :

If it is evident that no member claims the right of speaking, the Speaker proceeds to put the question by reading the main motion, and then the amendment or amendments in their order, as the case may be. Having read the question on which the decision of the House is to be first given, he takes the sense of the members by saying : ' Those who are in favour of the question (or amendment) will say content (or yea) ; those who are of the contrary opinion will say non-content (or nay).'

Now, Mr. Speaker, you did put the question that way, and so far all was correct. But let us continue :

When the supporters and opponents of the question have given their voices for or against the same, the Speaker will say : ' I think the contents (or yeas) have it,' or ' I think the noncontents (or nays) have it,' or ' I cannot decide.'

Now, this is the part which was not done. You did not say that you thought the nays had it but you said : ' I declare the motion lost.' Now we have the facts that here was an amendment moved by two hon. gentlemen, and this declaration made by tlie bon. member for West Toronto that he distinctly said, ' yea.' It seems to me it was impossible for you, under these circumstances, to say the motion was lest. What you should have done, I submit, would be to say : I think the nays have it, and in consequence thereof five members on this side of the House would have arisen to demand a division to be taken. But there is another point which I think important. There is a well known rule of this House that a question must not only be put in English, but it must be put in French. Now that was not doue in this case. It was a misunderstanding, I take it, it was a lapsus, it was not done intentionally, but simply because you thought it was the right way to put the motion, either to allow some members on this side to speak to the amendment or to allow some members on the other side to speak against it; but

you did not put the question in the regular way so that a division could he demanded by those who proposed the amendment. Therefore I say, in the procedure which you have followed there are two flaws : First of all, you did not say : ' I think the non-eontents (or nays) have it ; or, I think the ' yeas ' have it; secondly, you did not put the question in French. Now it is absolutely necessary, it is absolutely essential bj the rules of this House, that the question be put both in English and. French. Of course if you began reading the motion in French we were at liberty to say : Dispense with reading in French. But you did not give us that opportunity. So nobody was under the impression that you had put the question in a manner that it might be voted upon. Now is it because there has been a misunderstanding between the speaker and this side of the House, is it because there is a mere quibble, is it because there is a mere technicality in the way, that you are going to deprive the opposition of the privilege of dividing upon this question and recording their votes upon it ? I do not think so.

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LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LATJRIER.

I think I was never so much impressed as I am now with the advantage of a dual language. There is certainly no desire on the part otThe Speaker, I am sure, certainly no desire on the part of this sidp of the House to deprive the minority of any right or advantage they may have in this House. I thought myself they had no intention of dividing upon it, and that the Speaker was merely following the ordinary course. But if there has been a misunderstanding, and and if the minority desire to avail themselves of their right of dividing the House upon the question, for my part, if my hon. friend will withdraw his motion. I will be glad to ask the Speaker to take a division.

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LIB

Frederick William Borden (Minister of Militia and Defence)

Liberal

Mr. B. L. BORDEN.

In view of what the Prime Minister said I will withdraw the motion.

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LIB

Lawrence Geoffrey Power (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER.

I agree with the hon. member for Montmorency (Mr. Casgrain) that it is the right of every member of the House to ask that the question be also put in French.

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CON

Charles Eusèbe Casgrain

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CASGRAIN.

It is not necessary that any member should ask that it be put in French, the question should be put in French without its being asked.

Mr. TAYLOR, You are careful in every other motion that comes up, to read it in both languages.

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LIB

Lawrence Geoffrey Power (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER.

I suppose I have been -lectured sufficiently for the time being. The question is now on the amendment of Mr. Clarke.

House divided j>n amendment (Mr. Clarke).

YEAS :

Messieurs

Alcorn, Kemp,

Armstrong, Lancaster,

Barker, LaRiviere,

Bell, Leonard,

Bennett, MacLaren (Perth),

Birkett, Maclean,

Blain, McGowan,

Borden (Halifax), Morin,

Boyd, Osier,

Carscallen, Pope,

Casgrain, Puttee,

Clancy, Richardson,

Clare, Robinson (Elgin),

Clarke, Roche (Marquette),

Cochrane, Sherritt,

Donnelly, Sproule,

Earle, Taylor,

Gilmour, Thomson (Grey),

Hackett, Tolton,

Haggart, Vrooman,

Henderson, Ward,

Hughes (Victoria), Wilmot,

Ingram, Kaulbach, Wilson.-17.

NAYS :

Messieurs

Bazinet, Law,

Bickerdike, LeBlanc,

Blanchet, Loy,

Borden (Sir Frederick), Macdonald,

Bourbonnais, Mackie,

Brodeur, MacLaren (Huntingdon)

Brown, McColl,

Bureau, McCreary,

Calvert, McEwen,

Carbonneau, Mclsaac,

Copp, McLennan,

Costigan, Malouin,

Delisle, Marcil (Bagot),

Demers (St. John), Marcil (Bonaventure),

Douglas, Matheson,

Fielding, May rand,

Fisher, Meigs,

Fitzpatrick, , Mignault,

Fortier, Murray,

Gauvreau, Parmelee,

Gibson, Paterson,

Gould, Prefontaine,

Haszard, Reid (Restigouche),

Heyd, Ross (Victoria, N.S.,)

Hughes (King's, P.E.I.), Sinclair. Johnston (Cape Breton).Smith (Vancouver),

Johnston (Lambton), Stephens,

Kendall, Sutherland (Oxford),

Lang, Talbot,

Laurier (Sir Wilfrid), Tolmie,

Laurier (L'Assomption).Tucker,

Lavergne Turgeon,

(Drummond & Artha.), Wallace.-66. Lavergne (Montmagny),

PAIRS :

Ministerial.

Ross (Ontario), Cowan,

Hyman,

Sutherland (Essex), Beith,

Cartwright,

Christie,

Dvment,

Erb,

German,

Grant,

Opposition.

Hale,

Pringle,

Bruce,

Northrup,

Halliday,

Tupper,

Ball,

McCormick,

Broder,

Smith (Wentworth), Porter,

Holmes, La veil,

Lewis, Robinson (Nord.)

Macpherson, Kendry,

McCool, Johnston (Cardwell),

Morrison, Ganong,

Schell, Kidd,

Wade, Daniel,

Logan, Lefurgey,

Harty, Reid (Grenville),

Wright, Rosamond,

Campbell, Calvin,

Charlton, Tisdale,

Davis, Citlbert,

Emmerson, Fowler,

Gallery, McIntosh,

Girard, Tarte,

Guthrie, Avery,

Lemieux, Brock,

Lovell. Gourley,

McCarthy, Lennox,

McGugan, Seagram,

Mulock, Roddick,

Sifton, Monk.

Amendment (Mr. Clarke) negatived.

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LIB

Lawrence Geoffrey Power (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER.

The question is now on the main motion. .

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April 26, 1904