April 21, 1904

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An hon- MEMBER.

The Campt>e11 coming. calBp-

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Andrew George Blair

Ron. Mr. BLAIR.

All they would have to give us or all that they might give us.

Then a gentleman of the name of Talbot says :

.hut suppose they were not anxious to give u to you ?

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LIB

Louis-Philippe Brodeur (Minister of Inland Revenue)

Liberal

Ron. Mr. BRODEUR.

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CON

George William Fowler

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOWLER.

I would like to ask Mr. Hays if he would be willing to have incorporated in this charter a clause to the effect that all the Canadian trade developed along the route of the Grand Trunk Pacific should go through Canadian ports-that is, all the freight which is intended for export ?

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Mr. HAYS@

Railway that is going to determine that, they have to carry it just where I send it. If the people of the Northwest choose to send their wheat via Portland or New York, how could the Grand Trunk prevent it ? It is the shippers that control the route by which the freight goes, and so the whole question comes down to the shippers. A firm wishing to ship wheat or flour will certainly always send it by the route that will carry it cheapest.

That car of flour, let me say, is shipped over this government road and , reaches Quebec. I would like the First Minister, or any other minister, or any man in this House or out of it, to point out how that, flour is going to be sent to the maritime provinces in preference to taking it, by a haul of 150 miles less, to Portland. There is only one way, and that is for the government to operate the road, if they are going to build it by Quebec. And so I again appeal to the First Minister. I know that he knows X am sincere in my confidence in him. I again appeal to him to stand up in his place and make as energetic-I am glad to see our dear old friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Sir Richard Cartwright) is getting some life in him. This Is the first time I have seen a smile on his countenance for weeks, much less observed him mutter a word as prompter, to the First Minister. I say, I again appeal to the First Minister to stand up and make one of these sentimental speeches such as only he can make, but on the reasonable lines I suggest. I venture to say, there is not a man of his following but will support him. And, wild as was their enthusiasm last evening, they will be infinitely more enthusiastic over such a speech, because their hearts will be in it. They will be glad to hear that the government has determined to throw aside this scheme of a line under Grand Trunk Pacific ownership from the coast to Winnipeg and under government ownership from Winnipeg eastward. I know right well, and the country knows right well, and these lion, gentlemen themselves know right well, that they are whipped into line. Do we not recollect how, when the First Minister rose to present these resolutions-and we were glad to se? him in such good health-the chill of the reception accorded him by his own followers. Throughout his whole speech he was applauded only three times, and then very, mildly. The Minister of the Interior (Mr. Sifton) came on a little later. There is more the master hand about him. He .is the ring master in the circus, so tc speak. He told the government's following : Look here, you terriers, fall into

line and cheer as you never cheered before, or not a man jack of you who is looking for judgeship or a collectorship of customs, or any other good place need expect to warm the office chair he is looking for.

Mr. Deputy Speaker left the chair and R was taken by Mr. Archibald Campbell.

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LIB

Henry Robert Emmerson (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Liberal

Mr. EMMERSON.

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Mr SAM. HUGHES.

Minister back from tliose [DOT]who have this unfortunate influence over him, and that he is endeavouring to make the Prime Minister repudiate such an iniquitous measure. Let us look at the eloquent words uttered by the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Logan) on that occasion :

Coming to the winter shipments, they say: We will give it over to the Intercolonial Railway if we can- make a satisfactory arrangement with the Intercolonial Railway.

We know that the Grand Trunk Pacific will have but a short haul from a point on its main line north of North Bay to North Bay, where it will make connections with the Ontario system of the Grand Trunk Railway. When the Grand Trunk Pacific have their traffic at this point, is it conceivable that the Grand Trunk shareholder who bosses the directors is going to allow that traffic to be hauled over the Intercolonial. from which he will not receive one dollar of return from the freight rates ? Is he not going to force the directors to send that freight down over the Grand Trunk system to Portland, in order that he may gel a dividend from it ? I endorse this language of the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Logan. He proceeds :

Is any man so childish as to believe that if the Grand Trunk Pacific has a car of wheat at North Bay it will take it through to Quebec and hand it over to the 'Intercolonial when they can take it right through to Portland. It is absolutely ridiculous to make such a suggestion.

' I endorse in its entirety this noble language of the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Logan). Why then did we find him last night bowing to the party lash, to the demand of the Minister of the Interior and to the sentimental appeal-and I do not know what other influence-of the First Minister ? Why did he sacrifice the first principles of responsible government by go-* ing back on the noble language he used a year ago, and fall into line behind these men at the beck of the party lash ? Let us hope it is because of a determination to privately win the right hon. the Prime Minister over from this scheme. .

I regret that the right hon. the Prime Minister was absent while I was reading the noble language of the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Logan), but as he is now in his place I shall read it for him.

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LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER.

I will take it as read.

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Wilfrid Laurier (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER.

on the same hinge as I am.

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Samuel Hughes

Liberal-Conservative

Mr. SAM. HUGHES.

is adopted. I would like to ask th>.

*prime Minister, whether he is aware of any meeting of the Grand Trunk shareholders, at which the original agreement was presented to them and rejected. I refer to a remark made in the course of the debate bv mv hon friend from; Haldimand (Mr. Thompson), who used this language :

Has anybody in this House impeached the sin-Mr Hays or of Sir Charles Rivers-wusmi when they made that promise ? Not at an1 They went to their shareholders and they said everything in their power to induce them to meet their views ; they had to pat up this money in order that that contract might be carried out as it was originally framed. But the shareholders point blank refused to do so.

T asked :

Might I ask the hon. gentleman when this meeting of the .shareholders took place to which he has referred ?

And the hon. gentleman (Mr. Thompson) dismissed me with a somewhat lordly wave of his hand in this way :

I have not got the exact date, but I can supply the horn gentleman with it after I have finished my speech.

I have not yet had any intimation of the date at which that meeting was held, ,mr was I aware, until the hon. member irentioned it. that such a meeting had been held Can the right hon. gentleman give me any information on the subject .

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LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Sir WIRERID LATJRIER.

I am not tint there was any meeting of tlie SiKS Grand Trunk WW other than that which took place on the 8th cf March.

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CON

Robert Laird Borden (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr R. D. BORDEN.

Then the original agreement was never submitted to any noting until the original and amended agreements were submitted 10 tins meeting.

oj;,. wiDFRID DAURIER. My hon. friend from Haldimand may have information as t ,int but perhaps these words do not cover exactly what he meant, as sometimes happens. Perhaps he meant to say tha the shareholders had been canvassed. But m my horn friend (Mr. R. L. Borden) has asked me a precise question, I am bound to give him a precise answer. I am noaware of any other meeting.

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Mr R D BORDEN.

My right hon. me-a JOT

stated that 1 was lnt0 my requotations which I iut^di m&y dQ him n0

marks, and m ,, jjiS own course and injustice let me toUow m ow Ry ^

VS let in passing while niy

line last night.

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April 21, 1904