September 8, 1903

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The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.

That is my intention-before this Bill goes through committee.

Topic:   CRIMINAL CODE AMENDMENT.
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CON

James Gilmour

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. GIRMOUR.

Would the minister be prepared to say now whether he would consider it an offence against the law for children to be found on the streets smoking cigai

ettes ?

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The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.

That is a very proper suggestion, and it is in reality the idea I had in my mind as to how far it was proper to punish merely the man who sells under a mistaken notion as to the age of tine person who purchases, and allow the child to go scot-free. As the parents of this country appear exceedingly anxious to suppress the cigarette, I think we ought, if possible, to reach the parent through the child.

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CON

James Gilmour

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. GIRMOUR.

I think tine Minister of Justice, in considering legislation for the future, should consider that policy. The

parents should lend a hand to help to carry out the law.

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The MINISTER OP JUSTICE.

I ought to say this, in addition, that I have received, I venture to say, over a hundred protests from the Women's Christian Temperance Onion all over Canada against this legislation, and I have not heard a voice raised in favour of it except what I have heard hene to-day.

Section 257 struck out.

Progress reported.

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JUDGES OF PROVINCIAL COURTS- SALARIES.


House went into committee to consider the following proposed resolution : Resolved, that it is expedient to amend the Act respecting the Judges of Provincial Courts ; and to provide that the salary of the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of the Northwest Territories shall he $5,000, and of five puisne judges of the said court, each, $4,000 per annum.-The Minister of Justice.


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The MINISTER OF JUSTICE (Hon. Charles Fitzpatrick).

This resolution is introduced for the purpose of providing for the appointment of two additional judges. The salaries are not changed. Very strong representations have been made by the bar to the effect that there are not sufficient judges at present in the territories. For the present we take power to appoint an additional one.

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CON

Edward Cochrane

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. COCHRANE.

Why not send up some of the Ontario judges instead of sending them perambulating around the country on commissions ?

Topic:   JUDGES OF PROVINCIAL COURTS- SALARIES.
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The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.

That is a valuable suggestion, which possibly may be considered when making the appointment.

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CON

Frederick Debartzch Monk

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MONK.

Has the hon. minister anything to show that the legal business before the courts has greatly increased.

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The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.

It has increased enormously both civil and criminal. I know more perhaps about the criminal business, because it is under the direct control of the Department of Justice. The criminal business has increased over fifty per cent in the last two years.

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CON

Seymour Eugene Gourley

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. GOURLEY.

Four years ago, I was living in the North-west and it was hard to get a judge to go on circuit, so that I can quite understand that the increase is called for.

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CON

John Dowsley Reid

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. REID (Grenville).

Does the hon. minister consider $5,000 sufficient salary for the chief justice of the Supreme Court of the North-west Territories ? Living there is much higher than the east and for a posi-Mr. GILMOUB.

tion of that kind you should have the ablest lawyers. I hardly think that any leading lawyer would give up his practice to accept the position.

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CON

William Humphrey Bennett

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BENNETT.

He will have no practice to give up.

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CON

John Dowsley Reid

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. REID (Grenville).

Such men should not get the position. It should be given to the ablest lawyers. Five thousand dollars is hardly sufficient.

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CON

Seymour Eugene Gourley

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. GOURLEY.

There Is a great plenty of game there and any amount of beef and sheep and it ought to be quite easy to live upon $5,000 per year.

Resolution reported,

House went into committee to consider the following proposed resolution :

1. Resolved, that the salaries of the judges of the Supreme Court of Judicature of Ontario

shall be as follows :-

Per annum.

The Chief Justice of Ontario $6,000

Pour Justices of Appeal, each 5,000

The Chief Justice of the King's Bench.. 6,000 Two judges of the High Court of Justice,

King's bench division, each 5,000

The Chancellor of Ontario 6,000

Two judges of the High Court of Justice,

chancery division, each 5,000

The Chief Justice of the Common Pleas 6,000 Two judges of the High Court of Justice,

common pleas division, each 5,000

The Chief Justice of the Exchequer

division 6,000

Two judges of the High Court of Justice,

Exchequer division, each 5,000

2. Resolved, that if the Chief Justice of the

King's Bench, the Chancellor of Ontario, the Chief Justice of the Common Pleas, or the Chief Justice of the Exchequer Division, is appointed to the Court of Appeal, the Governor in Council may direct that he be paid a salary not less than that previously enjoyed by him as such chief justice or chancellor.-The Minister of Justice.

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The MINISTER OF JUSTICE (Hoi).

Charles Fitzpatrick). This is introduced to bring our Dominion legislation into line with the Ontario legislation. By the Ontario Judicature Act, amended last June, it is provided that there shall be an Exchequer Division of the high court, which makes it necessary to provide for a chief justice and a puisne judge for the new division. The court of appeals is not affected by this resolution at all.

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CON

Charles Eusèbe Casgrain

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CASGRAIN.

I congratulate the legislature of Ontario in having found this means of increasing the salaries of the judges in that province. I hope that the legislature of the province of Quebec will take a leaf out of the Ontario book and pass a similar law and thus increase the very insufficient remuneration paid to our judges in Quebec. In that province there are two chief justices and one acting chief justice-the chief justice of the Court of Appeals, the chief justice of the superior court and the acting chief justice of the superior court, who

lives in Montreal, when the chief justice lives in Quebec, and vice versa. In Ontario, under the new Bill, there are five chief justices, each receiving a salary of $6,000. I find also in resolution number two a very good way of increasing the salaries of the judges, because it provides that if a chief justice of one of the divisions is appointed to the Court of Appeal, although under the law he should receive only $5,000, the same as the other puisne judges, he continues to receive $6,000. There are fourteen judges in Ontario, who receive a salary of not less than $5,000, and live who receive a salary of not less than $6,000. And there may be judges appointed to the Court of Appeal, who had been chief justices of the lower courts, and they will also receive $6,000. I would like again to call the attention of my hon. friend, as it has been often before, to the utter insufficiency of the salaries of the judges in Montreal. It is not because we who belong to the learned profession wish to become judges that we urge an increase in the salary, but because we believe that we are really doing a service to the country by bringing this question to the attention of the authorities time and again. I can quite understand that it is not the fault of my hon. friend if he has not been able this session to bring before the House a Bill increasing the salaries of-the judges in Toronto, in Montreal, and in Quebec. I would not advocate at the present time an increase in the salaries of the judges generally all through the Dominion. But if he consults anybody who knows anything about the cost of living in the city of Montreal, he will be told that the sum of $5,000 is absolutely inadequate for a man occupying the high social position that a judge should occupy in such a city as Montreal. All business men in the city of Montreal will tell my hon. friend that, not only those who are connected with the legal profession, but those who have anything to do in the business circles of that city. It seems to me extraordinary that a man having in his hands the administration of justice, a man who very often has to determine, not only upon the life and death of an individual, but upon his fortune to the extent, perhaps, of hundreds of thousands of dollars, should receive the paltry sum of five or six thousand dollars, while a man who is at the head of a financial institution, perhaps a small institution, receives a salary of $10,000, and while others who are at the head of great corporations receive salaries of from $25,000 to $50,000 a year. I may say that in Montreal the judges are precluded from accepting any civilities from anybody, or any of the amenities of social life, because they are absolutely unable to return them. As I said before, this question has occupied the attention of the House several times. I can understand that at this late date of the session it would be impossible to bring in a measure, what I

would call a measure of relief ; and I would again urge upon my hon. friend-he is a strong man in the government, he has a great deal of influence in the government and with the supporters of the government- and I would suggest to him that now is a good occasion to make a change, if not this session, at least next session-if we have a next session-I do not want the right hon. gentleman who leads the House to commit himself upon that question now ; but if we have another session of this parliament, I hope he will heed the views of the great majority of the people in the province of Quebec and of the Dominion at large, and bring in a measure by which the salaries of the judges will be increased to a figure somewhat adequate to the high functions they have to exercise, and the high social position which they occupy in this country.

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CON

Samuel Barker

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BARKER.

I wish to call the minister's attention to what appears to me an . anomaly in the different salaries provided for in this resolution. The salaries of the Court of Appeal judges are the same in the resolution as those of the high court judges. Perhaps the minister will tell me if I am mistaken, but I think the judges of the high court have allowances that the Court of Appeal judges have not, circuit allowances and things of that kind. So that in fact, from what appears here, a judge of the high court does really receive a higher remuneration than a judge of the Court of Appeal. Now it strikes me as rather singular that a judge of the high court should receive a lesser remuneration than the judges of the Court of Appeal, who are the judges of the highest court in the province, and who decide appeals from the other courts ; yet they receive lesser pay, a lesser remuneration, at all events, than those over whom they rank. I would also like to point out to the minister that for the salaries mentioned here. $5,000 for a puisne judge and $6,000 for a chief justice, you cannot persuade the best men at the bar to take seats upon the bench. I think it is generally conceded throughout the province-it is a question that one does not like to discuss very fully, because it might appear to reflect upon those who have been appointed and are now sitting upon the bench-but there is no question, I think, that the government cannot obtain the services upon the bench of the best men at the Bar in Ontario, for the salaries that are mentioned here. I think that is a subject the government should take up and deal with, for it is notorious that the very best men cannot be obtained at present, and it should be possible at all times to put upon the bench of the province the very best material that the province affords.

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September 8, 1903