September 8, 1903

CON

Seymour Eugene Gourley

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. GOURLEY.

I would like to have it stand. Does the Minister of Justice know whether it has received any judicial interpretation in New York?

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The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.

I do not know how old the New York statute is, but it has been in force there for a couple of years. I would not consider it important whether a judicial construction has been put upon it or not, provided it conveys our own ideas.

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CON

Seymour Eugene Gourley

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. GOURLEY.

As I read it, I have great doubt whether (a) and (b) are controlled in any way by (c).

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The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.

The hon. gentleman will notice that the word ' or ' runs through the sections, and it is governed by the word1 ' because.'

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CON

Seymour Eugene Gourley

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. GOURLEY.

At the first reading, it seems to me you have to introduce a very nice construction to get (a) and (b) controlled by (c). I am afraid the courts will say that parliament has not a nice literary idea in drawing these clauses.

Section 75a allowed to stand.

On section 198a-amending section 205,

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The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.

This was introduced at the request of the Royal Art Union of London, with the laudable desire of distributing works, of art. But since the section has been introduced, representations have been made to me that it is liable to open the door again to the inconveniences that have resulted from lotteries established heretofore in Montreal. I have endeavoured to point out that this amendment will not produce that effect, but those who are interested in the good work carried on against lotteries seem to think it is liable to have a damaging effect upon their work in Montreal. Consequently, I think it is better to allow that section to drop for the present.

On section 257a,

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CON

Thomas Simpson Sproule

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SPROULE.

Is this instead of the Bill introduced by the hon. member for Montreal, St. Lawrence, (Mr. Bickerdike) ?

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The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.

I would not like my hon. friend (Mr. Sproule) to say that it is instead of it, or in substitution for the Bill introduced by my hon. friend for Montreal, St. Lawrence (Mr. Bickerdike). This is a little attempt at legislation on my own account. I am sorry to say that the legislation I have introduced does not appear to satisfy any person. I have had protests from all over Canada from the Women's Christian Temperance Union to the effect that this legislation does not go far enough. On the other hand I have had protests from other quarters to the effect that this legislation goes very much farther than is necessary under the circumstances. In view of that I sacrifice this section to the protests of both parties and let it go at present in the hope that next year I may be

able to do something better. This can go as a peace offering to both factions.

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CON

Seymour Eugene Gourley

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. GOURLEY.

Does the hon. Minister of Justice expect next year to be able to do anything better in the way of satisfying the people ?

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The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.

I thought if I took the middle course that it would satisfy both parties.

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CON

Seymour Eugene Gourley

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. GOURLEY.

Is it not the best test of your proposal that both sides complain ? Though not an extremist, I think something should be done in the way of controlling the cigarette smoking habit in reference to boys of a certain age. I do not know what should be the limit, but I think that the adoption of a provision of this kind is good policy. We should not be entirely controlled by people who send us telegrams. We ought to make up our minds what is right and do it. I think the horn minister had better let it stay as it was at the beginning.

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LIB

Duncan Cameron Fraser

Liberal

Mr. FRASER.

I regret very much that the parties who sought for prohibition would not accept this excellent step in the direction of what they asked for. I am very much surprised that there should be any objection raised by the Women's Christian Temperance Union against this legislation because it is a firm step in advance. While I would not say that such a thing as prohibition is going to effect a cure, I think that as a deterrent this will be found to be an excellent piece of legislation. I am sorry that the hon. Minister of Justice has permitted these letters to affect him. I know his equable legal temperament and he might say that viewing the question from this side and that, he might better drop the whole thing. I would say that any correspondence that would bring about the result of dropping this section would only seem to indicate that those who had asked for it had permitted their better judgment to run away witli them.

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The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.

Not their better judgment, their worse judgment.

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LIB

Duncan Cameron Fraser

Liberal

Mr. FRASER.

I put it that way because they are ladies

their better judgment. I must be gallant. I can only say that a great deal of good will result from this legislation and I do not know how we could get at lit in any better way than in the way which is proposed. I never believed that by saying cigarettes shall not be manufactured or imported we were going to prevent anybody from smoking cigarettes, but I say to those who are interested in preventing boys from smoking cigarettes that a great deal will be accomplished by legislation of this kind. I regret very much that those reformers, who are among the salt of the earth, the best people in Canada, should have done what reformers very often do, namely, if they do not get all they want they will not accept that which is in their best* interests.

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CON
LIB
CON
CON

Edward Frederick Clarke

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CLARKE.

I think in view of that fact the hon. Minister of Justice (Hon. Mr. Fitzpatrick) is acting wisely, if the people in whose interest this clause is prepared will not accept it. It must be borne in mind, too, that a great deal of pressure has been brought to bear on the hon. minister by people who claim that the clause he has prepared is too drastic. A large delegation of persons engaged in the tobacco business came down to interview the hon. minister hnd they also interviewed a great many members. They pointed out that they did not open up tobacco shops for the purpose of selling cigarettes to minors, and that if the clause which the hon. Minister of Justice inserted in this Bill were permitted to pass it would work a great injustice to them. They recognize that the evil is one that should be grappled with, and what they suggested was that the clause should stand for twelve {months and that in the meantime both parties in the matter should make representations to the hon. Minister of Justice in the hope that one that would more nearly commend itself to both parties could be adopted.

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CON

Thomas Simpson Sproule

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SPROULE.

This clause has just the fatal objection which was urged against the Ontario Act. The Ontario Act provides against the selling of cigarettes to minors under 10 years of age. The way the Act is evaded is this : A number of boys will

congregate in some place. One or two of them will be over 10 years of age and the rest of the boys will give their money into the hands of the boys who are over 16 years of age who will buy the cigarettes and distribute them amongst their companions. The raising of the age limit by two years or more will not prevent that from being done in future as it is done to-day and I do not wonder that the Women's Christian Temperance Union object to it.

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LIB

Duncan Cameron Fraser

Liberal

Mr. FRASER.

We should not be deterred from passing good legislation such as this because it will be evaded in certain directions. I cannot assume that in all cases you will And boys who are ready to do what the hon. gentleman (Mr. Sproule) suggests. I admit that boys will have as many little ideas in their heads as to how to evade this law as grown up people, but the fact that this law will be on the statute-book will act as a deterrent and an educator. It is a good deal that the boy will know that it is upon the statute-book. The country is full of good boys who smoke cigarettes without perhaps knowing that it is not a good thing for themselves, but the fact that the boy will know that what he is doing is not only not good for himself but that it is not legal, will have good effect. I regret

that the Women's Christian Temperance | Union did not accept and accept gratefully this step which is a step in the right direction.

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September 8, 1903