August 24, 1903

TRANSCONTINENTAL RAILWAY SERVICE.

LIB

Aaron Abel Wright

Liberal

Mr. A. A. WRIGHT (South Renfrew).

Mr. Speaker. Before the Orders of the Day are called, I wish to call your attention to a number of incidents that took place at the Canadian Pacific Railway station in my own town of Renfrew yesterday. I do this to attract notice not to the incidents themselves but to the alleged causes of these incidents. I was taking a short stroll yesterday morning on one of our residential streets in Renfrew, in the neighbourhood of the Canadian Pacific Railway station, when 1 heard a tremendous cheering in the direction of the station. As our town is rather noted for its quietness and orderly conduct, especially on the Sabbath day, I thought it very strange and as the noise continued and the cheering became more boisterous, 1 went to the station to see what was the matter. As I approached I could see a train standing there and people running in and out of the rear end in a hurried manner, like bees from a hive, and when I reached the station, the train was moving out. I went on the station platform and as 1 reached it our village constable and a driver came up and having alighted the constable said that it was no use trying to stop the train then or trying to do anything when it arrived at Pembroke because you could not tell who the culprits were, and it might be dangerous to go in to arrest any one on the train. I was told that the trouble was Mr. HACKETT.

that a number of the passengers who came off this train which was the second train going through that morning, got off the train in search of water, and not finding any at hand went across the street to an ice house belonging to a townsman and undertook to take the ice out in order to melt it down. Three or four men went up into the ice house and threw down the ice and three or four others got the baggage trucks and commenced hauling it to the train, while others carried it into the car in order to provide themselves with water. A number of others seeing a pile of dressed lumber there, belonging to Mr. McDougal, a brother of the Auditor General, came to the conclusion that it would be a good opportunity to improve their sleeping facilities in the car, so they took four or five hundred feet of the lumber into the car while the others were taking the ice. There was also a car on the siding in which a man was preparing to ship a horse and a number of these passengers took out the hay and straw and carried it into the cars in order to make beds for themselves.

I would wish to draw attention particularly to the alleged fact that the origin of all this trouble was that there was not sufficient water in the train for the passengers ; it seems to me that something should be done to prevent a recurrence of incidents of this kind. As another train was expected to pass in fifteen minutes our town constable came to the* conclusion that he had better remain and see that no trouble occurred on its arrival and I thought that 1 would remain also. In about fifteen minutes another train came in and immediately upon its arrival a very well dressed lady and gentleman came out of the train and wanted to know if there was any place where they could get water to drink. They were shown into the ladies waiting room and they got water. Then half a dozen more came out and wanted to know if they could get some. I pointed to a pump across the way, and they went across with tins and all manner of dishes. Seeing that they were really in need of water I went through the cars one after another, and I found that not one of the tanks had water in it. I went to the conductor and asked why there was no water in these cars for the passengers. 'Well,' he said I cannot tell you how it is but it has all disappeared, and I do not know what we are to do.' I said, ' but there is an abundance here.' He said. * It would never to do to leave this train here and there are no hands to put in the water, but I will telegraph from here and see that arrangements are made at Chalk River, the divisional point, to supply the train with water. Furthermore, after I leave here I wish you would go in and see that the operator sends this telegram. After the train passed, I went in and asked the operator if he had telegraphed and he said he had. I wish to inform the House that these gentlemen

945S

treated me in the most courteous maimer, both the conductor and the operator, but they said they were utterly helpless to do anything. It seems strange to me that a train like this, leaving Ottawa at live o'clock in the morning and reaching Renfrew at 8.30 and not likely at the rate it was travelling to reach Chalk River before ten or eleven o'clock, should not be supplied with water. I believe the attention of the House has been drawn to this matter before and I think it is best it should be drawn to it once again, in order that we may see if the Canadian Pacific officials cannot be induced to do something to remedy this evil.

There is another thing to which I wish to draw the attention of the House. On Friday about forty-five persons from our town and the vicinity wished to go west, and went down to the train, but when they got there they found the train was filled and it was impossible for a single individual to get on board. They waited until Saturday and then went down again but again found the train was crowded. A number did get on but the conductor told them to get off. While some of them were being put off the train others got on at the other end and the majority of them got on board. Now, it seems to me that this is an evidence that it is time we had some more facilities for getting out into the North-west than we have now, and that it is a good argument in favour of a transcontinental railway-that, as the right hon. the Prime Minister said, this is not the time for deliberation but this is the time for action, and every one of the people there who wanted to get on that train said the same thing. I move that the House do now adjourn.

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The MINISTER OF FINANCE (Hon. W. S. Fielding).

I presume the hon. gentleman does not suppose we can do more than draw the attention of the Railway Committee to the matter to which he has referred.

Motion to adjourn negatived.

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IMPERIAL CONFERENCE CORRESPONDENCE.

CON

Robert Laird Borden (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. R. L. BORDEN (Halifax).

Before the Orders of the Day are called I would like to draw the attention of the House to a press despatch that appeared on Saturday to this effect:

Correspondence on the subject of the publication of the proceedings at the colonial conference of last summer has been issued. In reply to a telegram from Mr. Jos. Chamberlain, Lord Minto, on behalf of the Canadian government, objected to any departure from the arrangement previously made that the proceedings should he considered confidential. Newfoundland, and Cape Colony took the same positon. New Zealand had no objection to the publication of the discussion on the trade question, while Australia favoured the publication of a full report

and Natal replied that that government had no objection to publication in full.

I would like to ask the government whether or not this statement is correct so far as the Canadian government is concerned, and whether or not the correspondence will be laid on the Table of the House V I suppose there can be no further objection to that as the papers appear to have been placed before the imperial parliament.

The PRIME MINISTER (Rt. Hon. Sir

Wilfrid Laurier). Some time ago, the attention of the government was called to this subject and I informed the House at that .time that there had been some correspondence concerning it, but, that we were not at liberty to lay the papers on the Table of the House, and would require to have some further communication with the Colonial Office. We have had that communication, and have permission to lay the papers on the Table, which will be done,to-morrow.

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TRANSPORTATION COMMISSION.

CON

Robert Laird Borden (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. R. L. BORDEN (Halifax).

Before the Orders of the Day are called I would like to ask the government whether or not any further steps have been taken with regard to the proposed transportation commission. On the last occasion when I brought the matter to the attention of the House, the right lion. Premier (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier) informed the House that a letter had been received from Sir "William Van Horne stating his inability to become a member of that commission. I think the right hon. gentleman was good enough, on that occasion, to hand me a copy of Sir William Van Horne's letter. Has the First Minister any thing further to communicate with regard to this matter ?

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The PRIME MINISTER (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier).

I will try to give further information on this subject also to-morrow.

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QUESTION.

PAYMENT TO MR. JAMES CUMMINGS.

CON

Richard Blain

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BLAIN asked :

How much was paid to James Cummings for remuneration, and how much for expenses in connection with his trip to South Africa ?

The MINISTER OF FINANCE (Hon. W. S. Fielding) in the absence of the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Rt. Hon. Sir Richard Cartwright). I beg to answer the hon. gentleman's (Mr. Blain's) question as follows :

The payments made to Mr. James Cummings in connection with his trip to South Africa were, for remuneration, $3,600 ; for expenses, $1,852 ; total, $5,452.

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THE NATIONAL TRANSCONTINENTAL RAILWAY.


House resumed adjourned debate on tlie motion of Sir Wilfrid Laurier for tlie House to go into committee on a certain proposed resolution respecting the construction of a National Transcontinental Railway, and the motion of Mr. Puttee in amendment thereto.


L-C

Edward Hackett

Liberal-Conservative

Mr. EDWARD HACKETT (West Prince).

Mr. Speaker, before addressing myself to the question before the Chair, I desire to thank the Minister of Militia and Defence (Hon. Sir Frederick Borden) for his kindness in agreeing, as leader of the House on Friday evening, to adjourn the debate at an early hour. It is what I should have expected from an old friend, and as he said that he extended his courtesy to me as an old friend, I thank him for his kindness on that occasion.

When a question of such magnitude as as the one now before the House comes up for decision, it becomes the duty of every hon. member who represents any portion of the people to state his views. Therefore, representing, as I do, an important constituency, I make no apologies when I rise, to speak on this important question. Sir, we are asked now, towards the end of a very protracted session to deal with this question which involves the expenditure of scores of millions of the people's money. This session began on the 12th of March, and it was not until the 30th of July that this measure was tabled. It is only now, after the session has lasted nearly six months that we are called upon to express our opinions and give our votes on the subject. I believe that a question involving such vast consequences to the people of this country should not be decided without being submitted to the people at the polls, for their opinion and their decision. We heard nothing of this question in the last general election. It was only on the 24th of November last, when Mr. Hays, in an interview with the correspondent of the Toronto ' Globe,' stated that It was the intention of the Grand Trunk to build a railway from North Bay to the shores of the Pacific, that we had the first intimation of this project. But we now find at the end of a session lasting, as I have said, nearly six months, that the government is to come to the aid of this company, and not only assist them to build the rail way, but actually build that expensive portion, 1,S00 miles long, from Winnipeg to Moncton, an undertaking which must cost over $100,000,000. This proposition comes before us without due information. The leader of the opposition (Mr. Borden, Halifax! day after day and week after week asked for information with regard to it, but no information was vouchsafed him until the 30th of July, when the Bill was placed on tire Table by the right hon. Prime Minister. Now, as showing the rights of the Hon. Mr. FIELDING.

people in a matter of this kind to have the question submitted to them I desire to quote a very high authority, one that I know will be accepted by hon. gentlemen opposite, and certainly will be approved by the right hon. leader of the House. I have here a speech delivered by Mr. Laurier, in 1880, in this House speaking to a motion made at that time he said :

It is the basis of all free government that the acts of the administration should be judged by the representatives of the people. In this case the same rule, it must be conceded, should apply. It is a well-known principle, that the people have a right to judge, not only of the honesty of those entrusted with the manage-met of their affairs, but even of their judgment in action. The people have a right to say they have erred in judgment. How are we to deal with or decide this question, or whether the government have accepted the best offer. It is impossible for the country to say ; we have only the word of the government. I am quite disposed to take the word of the government, as an individual, but not as a member of the House. As a representative of the people, I thiiik every one of us has a right to say the acts of the government should be done in broad daylight, so that every elector may have an opportunity of judging whether or not the government and every individual member was right, not only in motive, but in judgment. This is the reason of the motion, and I think it will be the duty of every member to affirm its principle, that nothing should be concealed from the representatives of the people.

Is this being done in broad daylight ? Have the elements of this measure been worked out in broad daylight ? Why, I remember when Sir Charles Rivers-Wilson was asked in the Railway Committee : Are you going to receive aid from the government 1 His answer was : That is a matter for consideration. The government would give us no information, and we certainly had no information from the directors of the Grand Trunk Railway Company. It is only now. after we have been thus long in session, that we are placed in a position to even consider this very important measure.

It is said that the questions involved in the building of this railway are not materially different from those involved in the building of the Canadian Pacific Railway. I shall show you, Sir, that the questions are entirely different. The Canadian Pacific Railway was the pioneer railway of the west. For years the government had been endeavouring to secure a company to build that railway. 'The hon. member for West Toronto (Mr. Osier) the other day read from a law placed upon the statute-books of this country by the Mackenzie government in 1877 inviting companies to tender for the building of the Canadian Pacific Railway, laying down the broad principle that there should be a bonus of land and a bonus of cash. In accordance with the statute, notices were inserted in botli the newspapers of Canada and of the United Kingdom, and in the leading periodicals

on the continent of Europe. What was the result of that ? After these notices had been given for a year the government received one tender, and. that tender was of no value, it was simply a mockery, and nothing was done. In 1880, when Sir John Macdonald. Sir Charles Tupper and other gentlemen, who were then at the head of the government, received this offer from the Canadian Pacific Kailway Company to build this great transcontinental line, it was in accordance with the statute placed on the statute-books of our country by Mr. Mackenzie, and that had not been acted upon by the Liberal party. The Conservative government succeeded in securing a company to build this railway. But the project was met with the greatest opposition on the part of hon. gentlemen now sitting on the treasury benches, then sitting on this side of the House. The most strenuous opposition that it was possible to give any measure was offered by these gentlemen to that great measure. I can well remember, because I had the honour of being a member of this House at that time, how clay after day, night after night, they rose in their places and denounced this measure as one antagonistic to the interests of Canada ; as one that would eventually place the country in the hands of a great syndicate. and would ultimately result in disaster to this country. Well, Sir, what do we find to-day ? The Conservative government succeeded in carrying through this great project. The Liberal-Conservative party, under the leadership of the late Sir John A. Macdonald, having as his lieutenant and Minister of Railways Sir Charles Tupper, Baronet, having also as his colleague Sir Hector Langevin, from the province of Quebec, and Sir Leonard Tilley, from the province of New Brunswick-those gentlemen, being at the head of affairs, called parliament to meet on the 9th day of December. 1880. There was no concealment, everything was done in broad daylight. Parliament assembled on the 9tli day of December, and on the 10th day of December Sir John A. Macdonald placed before parliament this resolution. He did not wait for four or five months, tampering with a company, selling the rights of the people to a company that would ruin the country. But on the second day after the meeting of parliament he laid on the Table of this House a resolution empowering the company to go on and build this railway.

Sir. these gentlemen were not satisfied, they believed that something more should bo done. They assembled their friends, and they said : We are going to obtain an offer from anothel" *syndieatej. Sfo they brought other gentlemen here, and after they got here it was found out that their offer was only a bogus offer, it was only an offer on paper, made by parties who had not the necessary means, who could not produce (he cash to enable them to go on and construct this great work. So their

unpatriotic effort failed. Well, now, we heard the hon. gentleman who addressed the House a moment ago (Mr. Wright), speaking of the great difficulty he had in the town of Renfrew yesterday with regard to immigrants I suppose, or perhaps parties of harvesters for the North-west, and he said that their experience showed that they wanted another transcontinental railroad. The police officials in the town of Renfrew, or in the township, were not sufficient to keep order, and they must have another transcontinental railway, without which there would be confusion, rebellion, riot, murder and destruction in this country. They must have another transcontinental railway in order that these poor people leaving Ottawa in the morning and arriving at Renfrew in three or four hours, might have water to drink on the train.

Now, Sir, reference has been made to What has been done by the Canadian Pacific Railway for this country. I want to quote you a few words from a speech delivered the other evening by the hon. member for Burrard (Mr. Maepherson), a very good speech, a very sensible speech, in which he bestowed the highest praise on the Canadian Pacific Railway Company and indirectly on the Liberal-Conservative'- party, which had pushed that project through. I wish to read from it at length, because some of his words should be written in letters of gold all over this country, as showing what that great railway has accomplished for Canada. He says :

I wish to show the House what has been accomplished by the construction of the great Canadian Pacific Railway.

Prior to the advent of this railway, British Columbia was a country isolated from eastern Canada, having nothing in common other than devotion to the old flag and yielding hommage to the same soverign. It was a country which, from its isolation, had no national aspirations. But its people were men of courage and determination in that small and isolated community, and they recognized the great future of British Columbia if it could only get a railroad carried through connecting the eastern part of Canada with the west. The building of the Canadian Pacific Railway has made what was once the fishing hamlet of New Westminster a large, thriving commercial and populous city. It made a new province for Canada, one of the brightest gems in the Crown of confederation.

Remember. Mr. Speaker, that I am quoting the words of a gentleman who is no doubt a strong Liberal, but who is honest enough to state his views iu this way :

It made the men who, while proud to say that they are British Columbians, still prouder to say they are Canadians. It made what was in 1883 a primeval forest into our present great city of Vancouver. It made it possible where 20 years ago stood only the Douglas fir and the British Columbia cedar, that a city of 35,000 people live to-day. Where not one dollar of customs revenue was collected 20 years ago, where the past year the sum of $1,388,709 was collected. It made possible, where banks were

unknown, where to-day stand six of the leading banking institutions of Canada. Where bank clearances were unknown, to where during the first six months of the present year the clearances amounted to nearly 29 millions dollars. It made the great seaport of Vancouver and created what last year was the fourth largest port of customs collections in the Dominion. Where ships were unknown practically 20 years ago, to-day in the harbour of Vancouver boats flying almost every maritime flag in the world can be seen loading and unloading. It has made and created a new trade with the Orient. It made and created a new trade with Australia and New Zealand. It has made and created a new trade with the United States. It made and created a new province whose inhabitants are a happy and contented Canadian people. It made possible the development of a section of our mining country, which only goes to prove that we have greater than has been found. It made it possible for us to produce in the last 16 years 31,640,203 ounces of silver, valued at $18,475,882 ; it made it possible for us to produce 280,200,845 pounds of lead, valued at $10,447,540 ; it made it possible for us to produce 92,652,480 pounds of copper, valued at $12,333,200 ; or a total value of silver, lead and copper of $41,256,603.' And prior to the building of the Canadian Pacific Railway this condition of things was unknown in British Columbia.

Sir, no greater tribute could be paid by any one to tbe benefit of the Canadian Pacific Railway, and to tbe wisdom of the great Liberal-Conservative party of Canada, that party which have been untiring in their efforts to promote the interests of the people of this country, notwithstanding that hop. gentlemen opposite preached the blue ruin and the desolation which would overtake this country by the building of the Canadian Pacific Railway, which nevertheless has accomplished all that has been stated by the hon. member for Burrard. The hon. gentleman has not only paid a compliment to the Canadian Pacific Railway, but he has also paid a tribute to the energy, ability, integrity and honesty of the Liberal-Conservative party. This proposed railway is a differenet affair altogether. At the time the Canadian Pacific Railway was undertaken, it was undertaken by a company receiving, it is true, large bonuses in land and money, but it was undertaken as a pioneer railway. It was to open up those great fertile western plains that were lying unknown as a sealed book as far as the people of Canada were concerned, known only to the Indian and the fur trader. Now we find that owing to the construction of this railway, owing to the great work done by the Liberal-Conservative party 100,000 settlers have been taken into that country, each year and yet hon. gentlemen opposite endeavour to take the credit for the present tide of immigration. It was said by a leading member of this House some years ago that they were only flies on the wheel and as far as immigration is concerned, they still are only flies on the wheel. It was the great Liberal-Conservative party that opened up Mr. HACKETT.

this country by building this railway through those fertile plains and thus enable people from the congested centres of Europe and the United States to go in there and create for themselves happy homes on the soil of Canada.

One great objection I have to the resolution is that it contemplates the building of a railway without this parliament knowing at all what are the conditions of the country to be traversed by this railway. The most complete information the right hon. gentleman can give us was the statements of missionaries and explorers whose information has been gained some two hundred years ago. He had no recent surveys to guide him. We do not know the conditions of the country through which this railway passes. I am in hopes that we have as promising a country as that which has been described by hon. gentlemen opposite, and as that which has been termed by the hon. member for Bonaventure (Mr. Marcil) a great northern empire, but before we throw away millions of dollars of the people's money on building a railway, we should have some data, some facts, some surveys, something to guide us as to the nature of the country, something to show whether the country can only produce forests of spruce, pine, cedar, &c., or whether it is capable of the production of grain crops upon which the people may subsist. The hon. member for North Renfrew (Mr. Maekie) stated the other evening that he had gone over a large part of the country to the north of us. The hon. gentleman does not address this House very frequently, and I listened with much pleasure to his statements, because I am sure that he made them in sincerity and honesty, but the most he told us in regard to the agricultural capabilities of the country was that he saw cabbages and turnips growing. He did not know whether the country was capable of growing wheat or not, but he was certain that it could grow vegetables. It may be possible that, when the timber is cleared away, if you have a good clay soil, and if you have no early frosts, you may be able to produce wheat, but if the season is short you may only be able to produce short lived vegetables. The hon. gentleman said another thing that he may also have considered to be true, but, if it is true, it is miraculous. He said that the rivers flowed up hill in that country, that a great plateau existed extending for hundreds of miles-1 think he said that he had explored 500 miles of this tremendous plateau-and that the rivers flowed both ways upon it. We have no further data than that. We have nothing further to show us whether we would be justified in expending such an enormous amount of money to build this railway. What we insist upon, and what the people of this country, I am certain, will insist upon, is that this question shall not be pressed with undue haste through

9465 AUGUST 24, 1903 9466

this parliament, but that time shall be given for its consideration, that a matter of two or three months will not be sufficient and that after threshing it out in this parliament and after every phase of the subject has been considered by the representatives of the people, the matter shall be submitted to the people at the polls for consideration aird decision.

The hon. member for King's, P.E.I. (Mr. Hughes) has made a computation of the cost of the building of this railway. The hon. gentleman is no doubt a good business man and you would think that when he was dealing with figures he would have some regard for the accuracy of the estimate he made. He has made a singular estimate. He has estimated the cost of the line between Winnipeg and Moncton at $65,000,000, and of the line west of Winnipeg at $15,000,000. Thus the whole cash payment and liability incurred by the people for the road, according to that hon. gentleman, will be $80,000,000. Then he tells us that that liability in seven years will amount to 15 cents per head of the population. Even taking his own figures, and he was far away from the correct figures, because, a-s 1 stated at the beginning, the liability will be at least $150,000,000, he tells us that the interest charge on even this large amount will only entail on the people of this country a liability equal to 15 cents per head of the population. That is a most singular statement. If it is true that we are only going to expend $80,000,000 upon this great project, and if it is only going to cost the people 15 cents per head for seven years, we should make the hon. gentleman Minister of Finance, and let him carry on the affairs of the country, because, if he could do it as advantageously as his estimate would lead us to believe, we would all support him. But, there is another side to this question. The interest, as the hon. gentleman will see on this $80,000,000, at 84 per cent, which is about the lowest rate at which he can borrow money in the money markets of the world, would amount to over $3,000,000 per year. We have a population in this country of about 6,000,000, and if we divide 6,000,000 by 3,000,000 we will find that the interest charge will represent 50 cents per head of the population per year instead of 15 cents per head, which for a family of six people means an annual tax of $3. An estimate of six people to a family in Canada is a moderate one. We have families ranging from six to fifteen but if we place it at six and base our estimate on the amount which the hon. gentleman says the railway will cost, it will mean that the man living on his farm who has to work long hours to maintain his family, to clothe and feed them, will be called upon to contribute, in addition to his other taxes, to maintain municipal institutions and schools for the education of his children, to the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway 50 cents

per head, or $3 per family per year. This is a matter that should be seriously considered by the people of this country. The farmers of Canada have not riches to throw away in that direction. It is a matter to ponder over seriously as to whether the country can afford to undertake such a project as this. We have now two lines of railway running west of Winnipeg providing the best means of transport from the fertile plains of the west to Port Arthur. Let us then utilize our great water-ways and afford facilities such as has been suggested by the leader of the opposition. Accommodate the people of the country through means of utilizing the Intercolonial Railway and extending it to North Bay, and thus afford transportation facilities that will be equally efficient and will not cost one-fortieth part of the amount that the government are going to contribute to this Grand Trunk Pacific Railway scheme.

I heartily approve of the proposition of the leader of the opposition. It views the affairs of Canada from a broad standpoint, and it is a statesmanlike policy. Why did Mr. Blair resign ? Why did the late Minister of Railways and Canals resign a lucrative and honourable position in the cabinet ? It was because he could not conscientiously hold his position and support a measure of this kind. Mr. Blair had a strong conviction that where the people of Canada have expended from $71,000,000 to $72,000,000 in the construction of a railway from Halifax and St. John to Montreal ; while they were paying large interest on that amount year after year ; while it meant a large addition to the taxation of the country ; he could not conscientiously support a measure that would parallel that railway for the greater part of its length and render it almost useless from the point of view of carrying freight. My hon. friend from King's, P.E.I., (Mr. Hughes) told us the other night that this Grand Trunk Pacific Railway was going to be a great military line. The hon. gentleman got mixed up in his figures, because one time he told us that it would cost only $2.80 a head, and another time he told us that it would cost us 15 cents a head. I don't blame him at all for mixing up his figures because the hon. gentleman (Mr. Hughes) was seized with a fit of military enthusiasm. _ He imagines himself a Roberts, or a Kitchener, or a Wellington, or a Napoleon, standing somewherei at the eastern terminus of this great railway and looking along a line 3,000 miles in extent, seeing it carrying on its trains, soldiers, and guns, and armoured cars, and everything of that kind. It is no wonder he should forget Ids figures. Speaking of this great project, he said :

But there is something else which commends this proposition to roy approval.

This great military .man ; this great warrior for King's, P.E.I. !

If the time should ever come, and It will come through no fault of ours, when we may have to stand shoulder to shoulder in defence of our country, our institutions, and our laws, just think what a sense of security this continental railway extending from the impregnable fortress of Quebec, to a fortified port on the Pacific Ocean will give us. Our troops

Just think of his strategy; what a strategist the member for King's, P.E.I., is ? He spoke about conveying our troops 3,000 miles.

Our troops could easily be transferred from the west to the east and from the east to the west, and placed at any intermediate point. Should that day ever come, is there any man in Canada who would begrudge this contribution of 15 cents a year for fourteen years, for the power and security which such a line of communication could afford.

Sir, there was the spirit of military enthusiasm inflaming the hon. member for King's, P.E.I., but what do we And ? Only last Saturday evening in the good old city of Montreal, the hon. member for Labelle (Mr. Bourassa) who sits almost at the same desk with the hon. member (Mr. Hughes), denounced imperialism, denounced spending one cent of the people of Canada for imperial purposes or for imperial defence. How can these two gentlemen reconcile their position, and each support the same government. The hon. member for I.a-belle called Chamberlain almost an idiot and the Earl of Minto a second to him. While this great military strategist from King's, P.E.I. (Mr. Hughes) is going to build this railway for military purposes extending from the impregnable fortress of Quebec, as he says, to another impregnable fortress on the Pacific coast; while he is willing to spend millions of money for this, his confrere from Labelle (Mr. Bourassa) denounced the spending of one cent of public money for the purpose of defence in Canada. That is the kind of following the government has on the other side of the House.

I suppose, Sir, that after all that one thing which is expected from a member in this House is to speak in favour of the province whence he comes. I have said pretty much all I have to say in connection with this transcontinental line and I repeat again that the people of Prince Edward Island will expect some consideration from the government, and they will also expect that I should make reference to their claims.

I had the honour of moving an amendment a few days ago advocating that Prince Edward Island should be connectel with the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway. I presume this Grand Trunk Pacific Railway will be carried out. I do not know that our protest will have any effect on the government to prevent them from carrying out their views. It was my intention, if at all possible, to have the province of Prince Edward Island connected with this system of Railways. For years' we have been suffering in this island province for the want

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L-C

Edward Hackett

Liberal-Conservative

Mr. HACKETT.

of communication in the winter time. In summer time we have facilities for transporting our produce and developing our industries, but the great drawback is that when the ice forms in the Straits of Northumberland, Prince Edward Island is to a certain extent isolated and shut out from communication with the rest of the world. In 1873, when Prince Edward Island entered confederation, the government of Canada guaranteed that continuous steam communication would be established and maintained between Prince Edward Island and the mainland. Very little has been done to carry out that treaty. We have two winter steamers it is true, one of which is getting pretty old and will have to be replaced soon by a better one. The Postmaster General told us that this great railway scheme of the government was going to be a great transcontinental national railway which would unite all the provinces of the Dominion together, and I thought, now was the time for Prince Edward Island to assert herself and to show that if it was going to be transcontinental and national the little province of Prince Edward Island should not be neglected. I moved an amendment to the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Bill asking that the company should acquire the branch of railway from Sackville to Cape Tormentine, placing suitable steamships on the route between Cape Tormentine and Carleton point, constructing a pier at Carleton Point, and thus giving Prince Edward Island connection with this transcontinental railway.

While we have unexcelled fisheries around the coast of Prince Edward Island, these great resources remained undeveloped for the want of this communication with the mainland. Consequently, our young men are obliged to leave their homes in the autumn season and go to the lumber woods of Maine or New Brunswick for employment, although the waters of their own province contain this teeming wealth. Last winter a large portion of the products of the fisheries, after they had been frozen and prepared for the American market, remained at Georgetown until the month of April, owing to the fact that the government steamers were fast in the ice. As a result of that, our young men, who spent their money and their time in the fisheries, lost some $5,000 or $0,000 in cash. A petition was sent to the government asking the government to recoup them for this loss, inasmuch as it was occasioned by the want of government steamships for keeping up communication with the mainland ; and I hope that the government will see their way to reimburse these people, who are endeavouring to prosecute an industry of great value to the province and to the Dominion, in the loss they have sustained, and thus encourage them to continue in the industry for another year, and keep them from going to the United States. Is it any wonder that our popu-

lation has fallen off 5,000 or 6,000 in the last ten years when our young men have eo little encouragement to stay at home?

Referring again to my amendment, I was astonished to meet with the opposition of the lion. Minister of Finance (Hon. Mr. Fielding). When he was in the province of Prince Edward Island he was very generous. When he had a candidate contesting an election, he would promise the people all kinds of things; but when he is asked to do anything in this parliament for the people, he forgets all his promises and pledges, and will not do anything at all. But, surjn'ised as I was at the action of the Minister of Finance, I was amazed at the conduct of the hon. member for King's, P.E.I. (Mr. Hughes), who said it was an unreasonable thing to ask that Prince Edward Island be connected with the mainland- that it was an unreasonable proposition that a pier should be built at Carleton Point, and that boats should be placed on the route between Carleton Point and Cape Town entitle. Sir, the fathers of confederation, the gentlemen who, on behalf of Prince Edward Island, negotiated the terms of union with the Dominion of Canada-the late Senator Hawthorne, the Hon. Alexander Laird, the Hon. James C. Pope, the Hon. George W. Howlan, the Hon. T. Heath Haviland- were all unreasonable men when they asked for this communication; and my hon. friend opposes them. I am almost ashamed to mention it, but I can only leave the hon. gentleman to the tender mercies of his constituents.

Another proposition was the building of a third steamer. I have already told you that one of the steamers, being some eighteen years of age, is growing old, and will shortly be unfit for the service, unless she is repaired. The other boat, the ' Miuto,' is a newer and better boat. But we want a third steamer. The people of Summer-side and of the western part of Prince Edward Island desire a steamer in that section of the country. We do not wish to deprive our friends in the east of their communication between Pictou and Georgetown; but we insist that between Summer-side or Carleton Point and Cape Tormentine communication should also be kept up ; and that cannot be done without another steamer. I was told by the hon. Minister of Marine and Fisheries a few days ago that the government had no intention of building another steamer for that service; but I do trust that while they are expending hundreds of millions of dollars in western Canada. they will see their way clear to do something for Prince Edward Island.

There are some other matters which I would like to bring to the notice of this hon. House, especially the right hon. leader of the government, whom I see in his place, and also the energetic and able Minister of Public Works (Hon. Mr. Sutherland), who is sitting beside him. I would like to see

a branch railway built from O'Leary Station, on the main line of the Prince Edward Island Railway, to the west coast of the island. I brought this matter to the notice of the hon. ex-Minister of Railways and Canals some time ago, and he gave me the answer that the question was under consideration. O'Leary Station is only twelve miles from Cape Wolfe, on the coast, which is about eighteen miles from the coast of New Brunswick, at the terminus of the Kent Northern Railway, which is operated from Richibucto to the Intercolonial Railway. I am informed by the gentlemen who own and operate that railway that if these twelve miles from O'Leary Station to the coast are built, they are willing to put on a steamship in the summer season between Prince Edward Island and the mainland, and thus to furnish another connection between tlio island and the Intercolonial Railway.

Another branch that is required is from Wiltshire, on the main line of the Prince Edward Island Railway, to Victoria Cra-paud, on the west shore of the island. We also require a branch from a point on the railway to New London on the north shore. These are sections of the country that require consideration in the way of improvements.

Sir, it lias been said by our opponents : You are making the same mistake that we made in 1880, when we opposed the building of the Canadian Pacific Railway; you have not learned by experience, and in opposing this measure you are opposing the best interests of the country. Sir, I deny that As I have already said, the Canadian Pacific Railway is the great pioneer railway of the North-west. At the time the fertile plains of that country were opened up, it was the duty of every man in Canada to see that the railway was assisted. But we have an alternative proposition made by the hon. leader of the opposition. That proposition is to utilize the Intercolonial Railway, which has cost the people of this country $71,000,000 or $72,000,000, and which is now extended to the city of Montreal; to extend it to North Bay on the Canadian Pacific Railway, and to the Georgian bay ; to provide proper terminal facilities there and at Port Arthur, because those who have studied the transportation question know that the largest quantities of wheat and other products of the west are carried by water; to nationalize the Canadian Pacific Railway around the north shore of Lake Superior, and make it a common highway for all railways. In this way, with a small expenditure of public money, you will place the farmers of the Northwest in direct communication with the people of the east, and make Montreal and Quebec the summer ports of Canada. Improve the terminal facilities at Montreal as well as at Quebec. Do the same thing for St. John and Halifax as winter ports, and yon will have Canada enabled to take her

position among the nations of the world with a moderate expenditure of public money, but do not pledge the credit of our country to this enormous expenditure while we have these facilities.

I oppose this resolution and the building of this railway on the following grounds : The government has no mandate from the people of Canada to build this railway. They are not authorized by the people of Canada to build it or to expend this large amount of public money in that way. If they desire to consult the people of Canada let them dissolve the House and go to the country on this question and we are not afraid to meet them in any part of Canada on this important point. I oppose it also because no surveys, or explorations, or estimates of the cost have been made. You know nothing of the mountains you will have to pierce,' or the rivers you will have to bridge, or the valleys you will have to traverse, in building this railway. It is not a business proposition that you should undertake a work of such great magnitude without first having estimates and reports by competent surveyors. I oppose this measure too because the House had been in session from the 12th of March until the 30th of July before this resolution was placed on the Table. It was not hi the form of a consultation with hon. members of this House, it was simply a contract binding hard and fast the people of Canada to an agreement. I oppose it, Sir, because it is the dying kick of a moribund government, of aj government that is falling to pieces day by day. What have we seen within the last year, or within the last six months ? Two of the leading members of that government resigning their portfolios and going into the cold shades of opposition. The hon. member for St. Mary's Division, Montreal (Hon. Mr. Tarte), resigned because he was not in accord with his colleagues upon the great fiscal questions of this country, because he believed in protection for Canadian industries, because he believed in Canada for the Canadians and he was forced to resign his position and to leave this government. The hon. member for St. Mary's division was at the' head of one of the most important departments of the government and was looked upon as one of its ablest members ; it was said of the right hon. the Premier that he said : * Anything that is not good enough for Tarte is not good enough for me.' Mr. Tarte was forced out. A short time afterwards, the hon. Minister of Railways and Canals (Hon. Mr. Blair)-also at the head of an important department of the government of this country-because of his honest convictions, because of his honest desire to serve the best interests of the people of Canada, knowing, Sir, that these tricksters-if I may use the word in a parliamentary sense-knowing that this government in its dying days was about to bring to its support the Grand

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Edward Hackett

Liberal-Conservative

Mr. HACKETT.

Trunk Pacific Railway and to endeavour, by boodle and by promises of boodle, to obtain a few more years of support and power in this country, felt as an honest man, having strong convictions on this point and anxious to protect the interests of Canada, felt it his duty to resign his position, one of great honour, which lie had acquitted with credit to himself. I am surprised that formerly these hon. gentlemen were willing to laud him to the skies ; as soon as lie resigned, they commenced to pour abuse on him. They chided us upon this side of the House because we applauded the hon. the ex-Minister of Railways and Canals. Yes, Sir, we applauded him, and are always pleased on this side to applaud an honest man, always pleased to give credit where credit is due and where an honest man, because of his own honest and sincere convictions, felt it his duty to resign an honourable and lucrative office and stand alone in this parliament, I say it is an honour to this side of the House if they applaud such a man. Now, I do not know that I should detain you any longer, and I will bring my address to a conclusion.

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?

An hon. MEMBER.

Hear, hear.

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Edward Hackett

Liberal-Conservative

Mr. IIACKETT.

My hon. friend says ' hear, hear,' it cannot be possible he wants to hear more of it, because if he does I am prepared to give him a great deal more, but I think it is better that 1 should stop. As an old member of this parliament, representing as 1 do an important constituency in Canada, knowing that this is a crucial time in the history of our country, knowing that our rights are about being sold-if I may use the word-that our liberties are about being tampered with, that the government of this country is binding the people of Canada to such an enormous expenditure that it will grind them down for years to come, knowing that the government, iii making this agreement with this company, ore bestowing upon it vast franchises and great privileges-privileges so great that it is going to be a question in the future who are to rule in this country, the government of the day, the peopte of Canada, or the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway. I think it my dutv to rise in my place and, although I may never speak again in this parliament, raise my voice against what 1 think a most iniquitous measure.

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LIB

Onésiphore Ernest Talbot

Liberal

Mr. O. E. TALBOT (Bellechasse).

Mr. Speaker, it is with a certain amount of diffidence that I rise on this occasion to address the House upon the very important resolution which has already been the subject of an interesting and prolonged discussion. The hon. gentleman who has just taken his seat has quoted at length from tlie speech made by the hon. member for Burrard (Mr. Macpherson), in which the hon. member was praising highly the undertaking of the Canadian Pacific Railway and the immense things that the realization

of this project had done for the country. Does any hon. member believe that what was done twenty years ago and what is now resulting from the construction of that immense railway undertaking cannot be now and in the future repeated by the construction of another trancontinental railway. He says also that nothing is known of the country through which the projected railway will go.

I hope, that before 1 resume my seat, I shall have convinced even the hon. gentlemen himself that a great deal is known about that country. He also tells us that the farmers have no money to throw away, suggesting, I suppose, that by the construction of this road, the farmers of this country will be impoverished. Representing, as I do, a rural constituency, I know as well as does the hon. gentleman that farmers are too sensible to throw away their money. But 1 never knew a farmer who would object to investing fifty cents if he thought he could make five dollars by it. And I consider that this undertaking, although I admit that the comparison is hardly possible, will, in the same proportion, do immense things for Canada. He quoted also from the speech of the hon. member for King's, P.E. I. (Mr. Hughes) that hon. gentleman expresses his views with regard to the military value of this proposed road. I had not intended to say anything on that point, but the remarks of the hon. gentleman (Mr. Hackett) brought to my mind a conversation I had in Quebec last winter, on the subject of the Trans-Canada, with an American gentleman whom I afterwards found to be a military engineer. He told me that the Trans-Canada, built as it was proposed to build it in the northern part of the country would certainly be a great advantage to Canada in a military sense. He said : In case any trouble should take

place between our country and yours, it would be the easiest thing in the world for a party in a small vessel to cross Lake Superior, blow up the bridges on the Canadian Pacific Railway on the shores of the lake at Jackfish bay and Heron bay, and, this done, the whole of the North-west Territories and Manitoba would be in our hands. This is the weak point of your country. The weak portion of the human system is in the small of the back, and it is the same way with Canada. I consider that the construction of the railway will be of the greatest possible benefit to Canada from a military point of view. It will run away north of the shore of Lake Superior and will be of great advantage for the transportation of troops should such a thing at any time, be necessary. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Hackett) also referred to the hon. member for Labelle (Mr. Bourassa) mentioning the hon. gentleman's speech made yesterday in Montreal on the subject of imperial defence. I am not here to defend the hon. member for Labelle ; that hon. gentle-297

man is well able to defend himself. Nor do I hold the same views as that hon. gentleman in every instance. But there is one point upon which he and I are agreed. I believe, I sincerely believe, that it is far better for Canada to spend its money in developing its own resources and building railroads such as this than in taking part in the wars of Great Britain all over the globe and wasting its energies and its resources. The hon. member for West Prince (Mr. Hackett) makes a strong appeal for more branch railways in Prince Edward Island.

I know the value and the importance of Prince Edward Island ; I know that that province is a terrestrial paradise, not only because of the fertility of its soil, but because of the works of improvement which ' have been carried out by its intelligent and energetic people. But if we study the history of railway administration in that part of the country, I think, we shall find the appeal of my hon. friend is not very strong in one respect at least. When we find that it costs $135 for every $100 which the railways in Prince Edward Island bring to the country we cannot but feel that this is a fact to be considered. And it seems to me that this fact is an answer to the argument in favour of government ownership and administration of railways in Canada. This is about all that struck me, Mr. Speaker, in the speech of the hon. member who has just taken his seat.

Very interesting and very instructive have been some of the speeches made on this question. Very wearisone, lengthy and misleading, to say the least, have been some others. Nevertheless, I am

of the opinion that the government has everything to gain by this long discussion. The undertaking is an immense one and its importance and necessity grow from day to day in the minds of the people.

I shall be brief, Mr. Speaker, for I shall limit myself to matters concerning my own province, and with which I am somewhat familiar. The other parts of the Dominion interested in the construction of the transcontinental road have been very clearly dealt with by hon. members on this side of the House who are more familiar than I am with their local wants and details. As to the legal aspect of the contract between the government and the Grand Trunk Pacific, nothing that I might say could make it clearer than the luminous and frank explanations that have been so profusely given about it by the best legal authorities in this House.

I should say, however, Mr. Speaker, that since last fall I have devoted a good deal of my time, scanning maps and reading reports of all kinds concerning the northern portion of our vast and rich Dominion. It was also my good fortune to make a very interesting and pleasant trip, during the past winter, through Manitoba, the north-west Territories and British Columbia. In the in-

terests of the Trans-Canada Railway Company, I addressed, in the principal cities and towns of these provinces, several meetings attended by the most influential and representative business men of the different places which I visited. I am somewhat surprised, Mr. Speaker, when X hear hon. gentlemen on the other side of this House say that the government is hasty and premature in its present action, that no demands or expressions of opinion have come from any part of this Dominion asking for the construction of this new transcontinental road, that, in fact, the people of this country know nothing of the immense region through which this proposed line of railway is to pass. I am not aware of any city or town of importance where boards of trades or municipal councils have not framed resolutions, giving emphatic expression to the necessity of this construction. Columns after columns of the most important newspapers of Canada have been filled with the most minute descriptions of the vast and magnificent area of country to be developed by this new undertaking. There is hardly a citizen of Canada who does not, at the present time, possess a very fair knowledge of the northern and valuable portion of our Dominion. The Trans-Canada Railway Company alone has distributed many ihousands of copies of prospectus and reports of the physical features and of the resources of a great portion of the territory tributary to this projected railway.

May I be permitted here, Mr. Speaker, to say that much credit is due to the promoters of the Tra us-Canada Railway Company- for the very effective missionary work they have perfoimed in this connection. The gentlemen composing this company have spent considerable money in important surveys and have devoted considerable time to gathering valuable and numerous data and have published a very interesting compilation of reports from engineers, missionaries, explorers and Hudson's bay officials. Several thousand copies of this compilation, accompanied by maps and profiles made by one of the best engineers of Canada, a graduate of the Royal Military College, and second Sir Percy Girouard in railway construction, have also been freely distributed. Much credit is due to these gentlemen, for they have traced the way for a great portion of an undertaking which is now attracting the attention of the people of Canada and indeed of the whole world. For Canada, although small in population as yet, is forging its way ahead with sure and gigantic strides. I still hold the strong belief that, by the time this Grand Trunk Pacific Railway is completed, the necessity of shortening the line by building north of Lake Winnipeg will be strongly felt, and instead of an immense curve of 300 miles to the south, the population of northern Saskatchewan, of northen Alberta

and of southern Athabasca, will render it necessary, in my humble opinion, for another railroad to be built on the line of the Trans-Canada project.

May I be allowed here to take strong exception to certain statements that have been made in and out of this House that the Trans-Canada Railway Company have sold out to the Grand Trunk Pacific. Looking over the list of names of the promoters and shareholders of that company should be sufficient to prevent any one from making such a ridiculous and unqualified statement. The Trans-Canada Railway Company still believes in the merits of its undertaking, and in its realization in the near future. Let me quote a few words from the acting manager of the Trans-Canada Railway Company, the active manager of the Quebec and Imke St. John Railway, and the exmanager of the Great Northern Railway, which is now placed in the hands of the Canadian Northern. I think every one in this House and out of it will admit that Mr. J. G. Scott is a good railway authority, and I am not afraid to pit his knowledge and his authority in railway matters against those of the hon. member for Hamilton (Mr. Barker). Last week Mr. Scott was interviewed on the subject Of the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway, and was asked by a reporter of the Quebec ' Chronicle ' what he thought. Here are his words, Mr. Speaker, quoted in the Quebec ' Daily Tele-grapli ' of August 10 :

Mr. Scott declined to express any opinion as to the policy of the government in assisting the Grand Trunk, but said that although the Trans-Canada directors are deeply disappointed that their line, which is the shortest, and, in their opinion, in every way the best for the country, has not boon adopted, nevertheless he personally could not but admit that the proposed government line from Quebec to Winnipeg would be of very great advantage to this city, especially if a level location is selected.

Further on Mr. Scott gives his opinion as to the possibilities of grain transportation by an all-rail route, and here again I think his opinion will rank favourably with that of any other railway expert in this House :

Although some high authorities think that an all-rail route cannot compete with the great lakes and canals for the transportation of grain from the North-west, he is firmly convinced that if the government select a level location with grades not exceeding thirty feet to the mile, they will not only be able to compete with the water route, hut will soon cut down freight rates very considerably, and save a great deal of money to the western farmer. People are apt to forget that the water route is only open for about two months after the crop is harvested, whilst a railway is open all the year round. They also forget that although you can send a vessel from Duluth or Fort William to Buffalo or Parry Sound, drawing eiehteeu feet of water and carrying 7,000 tons of grain, you can only send a vessel drawing fourteen feet and carrying about 2,000 tons through the Welland and St. Lawrence canals to Montreal or Quebec. This is what makes the

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LIB

Onésiphore Ernest Talbot

Liberal

Mr. TALBOT.

water route to the St. Lawrence ports expensive, and when to that you add the inland railroad freight from the interior to Lake Superior and the cost of elevating and transhipment, it will make it possible for a railway with good grades to compete readily for the transportation.

This, Mr. Speaker, I consider a very high opinion coming from a recognized authority on railway matters in Canada. Now, Sir, much has been said in this debate that might have remained unsaid by lion, members on the other side of the House. If every vestige of shame has not been destroyed in them by ardent partisanship, they will blush when, in a few years, they read of the things they have spoken during this debate of a part of our country of which they admit they know nothing. How can hon. gentlemen who, after all, occupy responsible positions, so far forget themselves, for no other motive than the advancement of their party, as to utter such absurdities and, offer such ridiculous assertions ? Self-esteem and the consideration of their fellow members, the dignity of this parliament and the respect of the citizens from whom they hold their mandate, should have been more than sufficient to prevent them from placing themselves on record with such exhibitions of extravagance and want of good faith. Mr. Speaker, I shall now deal with a few facts and figures in order to refute some of the very lame arguments advanced by hon. gentlemen on the other side of the House. First of all I shall devote a few moments to the hon. member for North Victoria (Mr. Hughes). According to this hon. gentleman's own autobiography he was at one time engaged in the honourable profession of teaching. He also, according to his own statement written by his own hand, devoted a good many years to the development of his muscles, giving his time to athletic training. Here is what he says about himself :

As teacher an 1 lecturer in history, language and literature. I was a recognized success. There is none whose students have taken higher standing or are filling higher places than mine, and there is none with better record or who is more beloved by his students than I am. . . . My athletic and political victories, my successes as educationist, writer on history and geography, and railway developer, have hot been the result of chance or mere blind doggedness. The head, heart, nerve and muscle have each and all been taxed, and their forces judiciously combined.

If his knowledge at that time was not any more accurate about the geography of the country he should love and know more about, I pity the pupils he has formed. It is true that my hon. friend, as well as some other hon. gentlemen on the other side of the House, coming from the so-called banner province of Canada, do not think it is worth their while reading about this part of the Dominion for which they seem to have had deepest contempt, and which is called the province of Quebec. It 297J

it very preciptible that what galls them in this new project is the fact that the province of Quebec will receive from it considerable benefit through relief being afforded to old settled townships and villages, and the immense development which will follow the opening of a new part of the province. They would prefer that the northern part of Ontario should remain a wilderness than to see the province of Quebec deriving auy advantage from this undertaking. One can readily gather that, had the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway started from Gravenhurst or North Bay, it would have met with their unanimous approval, for they cannot reconcile themselves to the idea of Quebec and the maritime provinces securing any immediate and considerable advantage from this policy.

It shall be a somewhat arduous task to follow the hon. member for North Victoria, who, thanks to his athletic development and elevated opinion of himself, traverses the province of Quebec over the tops of the Alle-ghaney mountains, jumping from summit to summit, and builds a railway without any trestle work to fill the gaps between them. He so often mentions the word ' air-line ' in his descriptions of the country, that one would imagine he was constructing an air road without a flying machine. I notice, however, reading the unrevised edition of ' Hansard ' reporting his speech, that he has thought prudent to eliminate certain figures which he had mentioned in the ifonse in relation to distances from points of the Intercolonial Railway to imaginary points of this new government construction. He said that 8 miles from Trois Pistoles was the starting point of the central route described by the hon. Minister of Finance, when in reality Trois Pistoles, by as straight a line as the crow flies, is 44 miles to the nearest point of the projected railway. Then he gives us what he calls the border line across the counties of Temiscouata, Kam-ouraska, LTslet, Montmagny, Bellechasse and I.evis.

The figures I shall now give will simply corroborate the statement made by the hon. the Finance Minister as to the actual distance by an air-line' from the nearest stations on the Intercolonial to probable stations in a southerly direction along the new projected line :

Miles.

From River Du Loup the distance is 25

From St. Pascal the distance is 17

From Ste. Anne the distance is 17

From St. Jeanport Joli the distance is

25

From LTslet the distance is 25

From Montmagny the distance is 20

From St.Valier the distance is 25

From Anselme the distance is 20

With the exception of the last station, which is along the Quebec Central Road, tlie others are stations served by the Intercolonial, and the closest to the projected railway. This will answer the question

94S0

raised as to the point of paralleling the Intercolonial.

The hon. member for North Victoria was also good enough to tell us, when he gave us the different elevations in feet of the different summits of the range of mountains back of which the proposed line of railway is to pass, that he was taking an opportunity of placing on record from official reports of the surveys of the United States survey department, a statement as to the topography of our country. This House must bear in mind that this double range of mountains, between which runs an almost continuous valley, follows a direction from west to east through this part of the province of Quebec, but the unfortunate mistake that the hon. member for Victoria made was to give to this House the summits for passes. What he describes are cross-sections of these mountains taken at different points running north and south. He gave the summits as follows :

Elevation.

Ft.

Woodbridge 1,878

River Verte 2,231

Painchaud Centre 1,936

Chapais 1,868

Garneau 1,898

Patton 1,720

Montmagny 1,727

Roux township 2,358

Roux township 1,972

Ware township 1,995

I have only given some of those mentioned by the hon. gentleman. There is on the wall of the Railway Committee room upstairs a complete profile of the entire route made by an eminent engineer, Mr. Hoare, and if you follow that through the entire country, you will find that the highest altitude which this railway will have to surmount is 1,450 feet. Of course, it is the report of an American surveyor that the hon. gentleman has referred to. I am sorry that the hon. gentleman has made use of it In this House, because we have Canadian engineers who have reported upon this country, and if he had taken the trouble to read their reports, he would have found that it would have been more satisfactory to himself, more satisfactory to this House and more satisfactory to the country to quote from them.

I should have thought, Mr. Speaker, that the hon. gentleman would have refrained from alluding to the construction of the St. Charles branch of the Intercolonial. The cost of this construction is a scandalous monument to the memory of the former administration. The $2,000,000 paid for the construction of that branch was not caused by the difficulties in the construction of the railway, but are due to exorbitant prices for rights of way paid to friends of the party. I fail to see, Mr. Speaker, why the hon. member for North Victoria made use of an American engineer's report, when so many surveys have been made by good Can-Mr. TALBOT.

adiau engineers over this part of the province from the boundary of New Brunswick to Chaudi6re Junction.

The hon. member for South Lanark (Hon. Mr. Haggart) referred to one made by Mr. Davey. He took advantage of that survey to exaggerate the difficulties to be encountered by the government in the construction of its new line. The hon. member for Westmoreland (Mr. Emmerson) showed clearly that Mr. Davey's line was a diagonal one, and had no relation whatever with the new project. The same hon. gentleman referred to a line run by Mr. Crawford from Rivifire Ouelle. This one is of the same nature, and also meets with the same objection. The only explanations and locations to be considered of real value are the ones made by Mr. Tetu in 1S89 and 1S90, and one made by Mr. Hoare in 1891. They cover the entire territory from St. Francis river, N.B., to St. Anselme, in the county of Dorchester. I shall refer more particularly to these two. I may also add that two more explorations have been made ; one by Mr. Sullivan, beginning at St. Claire, in the county of Dorchester, and the other by Mr. Light, starting from a point four miles west of St. Charles Station on the Intercolonial Railway. All of these surveys and explorations cross at a given point.

Now, in order to make this particular part of the undertaking clear to the people, and to show how possible and practicable it is, I shall read from Mr. Tetu's report, page 29, taken from the general report of the Commissioner of Public Works of the province of Quebec for 1891. These were the instructions received by Mr. Tetu from the Hon. Pierre Garneau, Commissioner of Public Works, before Mr. Tetu started this exploration :

Sir,-A portion of the information required by the report of the Committee of Agriculture, &c., adopted by legislative assembly on the 14th June, 1886, being already in the possession of the Department of Crown Lands

Hon. gentlemen will remember that this report was adopted after a prolonged and interesting debate, in which some 15 or 20 members of the Quebec legislature took part.

-the main object of the exploration with which you have been entrusted by letter of the 31st of August last, should be to discover an easy line for a railway and to prepare a sketch of the level from St. Anselme to Lake Etche-min, and from Lake Etehemin to the frontier, passing through St. Justine. You should also explore from Lake Etehemin, taking a northeasterly direction to the frontier of New Brunswick.

At the same time, while preparing these sketches, with a view to the eventual construction of a railway, that is to say, in keeping account of the grades and curves to he overcome or avoided, &e., &c., you should take note of your observations on the value of the soil and on the different kinds of forest trees you may meet with in the course of your expedition.

Should you discover indications of mineral deposits, you should also take note of them and bring back specimens of the minerals, whict you will deposit in the Department of Public Works.

The House will see that these instructions were very clear, and that they were given for the purpose, and the only pur pose, of ascertaining the possibility of the construction of a railway in this very part of the country. I will read a few extracts germane to the question, anl as briefly as possible, from Mr. Tetu's reports. He made three different surveys and three different reports, and in his general observation, here is what he says about that part of the country :

Soil.-The soil in these townships is exceedingly fertile and most suitable for agricultura' purposes, the forests well wooded with merchantable timber, while almost the whole extent of ground contained in my tracings shows only much more stony land, due to its positior in the near neighbourhood of the mountains.

Grade.-Although, owing to the proximity of the mountains, I was sometimes obliged to go round, I always maintained an easy grade, never exceeding one foot in a hundred, with the exception of one-half mile, where I war obliged to allow 18 inches to the hundred feet.

He goes on to describe from the first mile, giving a general idea of the country and speaking very highly of the country until he strikes that part between the S5th and the 100th mile, as to which he says :

At this point, I am at the height of 1,450 feet above the level of the sea, in a region of mountains, but the line which I have followed is in a fertile valley, well wooded with maple birch, &c., through which run numbers o" small streams, tributaries to the lake.

From the 85th to the 100th mile, I followed the valley of the River Noire (which is th< discharge of Lake Violon) for a distance of about 10 miles, always keeping on the nortl slope of the hill. The lay of the land here permitted of my running the line for a distance of 15 miles almost perfectly straight, through a forest heavily wooded with spruce timber of large size, together with a small quantity of pine. On each side of the high lands are magnificent forests of maple.

This is a general description of that part of the country over 130 miles of that line running all the way from the Etchemin river to Lac du Loup, the source of the Riviere du Loup. That was the limit of Mr. Tetu's survey, and there he was met by Mr. Hoare. Here is the information furnished by Mr. Hoare in 1890 in bis letter to the Hon. Mr. Garneau :

Quebec, August 24th, 1891.

Topic:   THE NATIONAL TRANSCONTINENTAL RAILWAY.
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August 24, 1903