August 21, 1903

OFFICIAL REPORT OF THE DEBATES.

LIB

Louis Napoléon Champagne

Liberal

Mr. L. N. CHAMPAGNE (Wright).

Mr. Speaker, I beg to move that the sixth report of the Select Committee appointed to supervise the official report of the Debates, be adopted) with a modification of the third clause. This clause reads as follows :

That the amanuenses to the official reporters, *who at present are receiving $3 per diem for their services, be, as regards salary, placed on the same footing as the extra sessional clerks, i.e., that they be paid $4 per diem, and that the said increase date from the beginning of the present session.

It is proposed to modify this portion of the report, to make it read as follows :

That the amenuenses to the official reporters, who have been employed during the presont session, and who have been receiving $3 per diem for their services, be paid $3.50 per day lor the term they have been employed and will be so employed, and that the said increase date from the beginning of the present session.

I may explain to the House that the object of this amendment is to cover the case of a certain gentleman who has been employed as amanuenses of one of the reporters from the beginning of the session until the 1st of July, and who has since been replaced by another man. My attention has been drawn to the fact that clause 3 of the report as it is framed would entitle the gentleman who has been employed from the 1st of July until the end of the session to receive the increased pay from the beginning of the session, while the other, who served from the beginning of the session until the 1st of July, would only be paid $3 per day. It is to cover that case that this modification is suggested. The committee recommended in the report that the salaries of the amanuenses be increased from $3 to $4 per day. Representations, however, have been made to me by the government-I think there is no indiscretion on my part in saying by the lion. Minister of Finance and the Speaker of the House-to the effect that while $4 per day was not altogether an excessive salary, it would not be in accordance with what is paid to other sessional clerks. Therefore, I suggest now that the report be modified to that extent, so that these employees will be paid $3.50 per day. With this modification, I move the adoption of the report.

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The MINISTER OF FINANCE (Hon. W. S. Fielding).

There is always a possible question as to how far a motion of this kind, dealing with money matters, can properly be brought before the House in its present form ; but I believe the practice of the House has been to allow such reports 293J ,.

to be made, not as conclusive in themselves, but as recommendations which, in order to have effect, must be followed by the necessary appropriation in the estimates to cover the increased expenditure. I think it would be better if my hon. friend would provide that the salaries of the gentlemen referred to should be placed on a par with those of the sessional clerks, without mentioning the particular sum. There is a regular scale of salaries for the sessional clerks-$3 ordinarily, $3.50 to those qualified as type-writters,. and $4 to those qualified both as stenographers and typewriters ; and it seems to me that the same general rule should be followed in this case, so that any of these gentlemen who are qualified in the same way as other sessional clerks would receive the same pay. I understand tnat these appointments are not made by the House or by the committee, or by the Speaker, and I think the officers who are to be dealt with in this way should be appointed either by the Speaker, as representing the House, or by the Debates Committee. I have at present no objection to the motion, but I think it should be understood that a motion of this kind, when passed, is to be taken as a recommendation, and as not necessarily conclusive. The general rule as to money matters is not easily determined, but I am inclined to think that if one wanted to be technical, objection could be taken to many of these reports. With the understanding that the motion is passed as a recommendation, I have no objection to it going.

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Mr. T. S.@

SPROMjE (East Grey). I entirely concur with the suggestion that any expenditure can only be made on the recommendation of the government with the assent of the Crown, and of course, it is in the discretion of the House whether it will be granted or not. With regard to the other suggestion, I think now, as I did before, that these appointments should be in the hands of either the Speaker or the government and should not rest with any committee of the House. I have always held that view, and this is why I refer to it now.

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Motion agreed to.


REPORT PRESENTED.


Report of Superintendent of Insurance of the Dominion for the year ending December, 1902.-The Minister of Finance.


MANITOBA GRAIN ACT AMENDMENT.


House in Committee on Bill (No. 232) to amend the Manitoba Grain Act, 1900.-The Minister of the Interior.


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The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR (Hon. Clifford Sifton).

This Bill was completed in committee a couple of weeks ago, but an amendment moved by my hon. friend from Macdonald (Mr. Boyd), suggesting that the Grain Commissioner should telegraph

to all country points the prices of grain from day to day, was laid over in order that I might consider it. I was not prepared to deal with the amendment at the time, because I had not sufficient information, but I told my bon. friend that I would take the matter up at an early day. After making careful inquiries, I find that the suggestion is not practicable. I referred it to the Grain Commissioner, and he telegraphed to the managers of railway companies in the wheat growing states to the soutli and also to the Boards of Trade and tlie Grain Commissioners, and he found that such a practice is unknown in the United States and regarded as wholly impracticable. So far as Canada is concerned, it is certainly impracticable, becausei we have no way of getting- an official price, as we have an open grain board upon which official prices are bulletined. I move that the Bill be reported.

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CON

Richard Blain

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BLAIN.

As the hon. member for Macdonald is absent, would the hon. minister allow the Bill to stand until Monday ?

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The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.

I am obliged to go away to-morrow and do not expect to be here again this session. I have already held the Bill over several days, because my hon. friend from Macdonald was not here. His absence, however, makes no difference, because he left the amendment in my hands in order that I might see whether it could be worked out or not.

Bill reported, read the third time, and passed.

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NATIONAL TRANSCONTINENTAL RAILWAY.


House resumed adjourned debate on the motion of Sir Wilfrid Laurier for the House to go into committee on a certain proposed resolution respecting the construction of a National Transcontinental Railway.


LIB

Charles Marcil

Liberal

Mr. C. MARCIL (Bonaventure).

There are, Mr. Speaker, in the history of nations, as in tlie history of individuals, red letter days. These are red letter days for Canada. The Liberal party, with the co-operation and approval of the Canadian people, is about placing on our statute-books a law, the preamble of which reads as follows :

Whereas, having regard to the growth of, population and the rapid development of the production and trade of Manitoba and the Northwest Territories, and to the great area of fertile and productive land in all the provinces and territories as, yet without railway facilities, and to the rapidly expanding trade and commerce of the Dominion, it is in the interest of Canada that a line of railway, designed to secure the most direct and economical interchange of traffic between Eastern Canada and the provinces and territories west of the great lakes, to open up and develop the northern zone of the Dominion, to promote the internal and foreign

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LIB

Clifford Sifton (Minister of the Interior; Superintendent-General of Indian Affairs)

Liberal

Hon. Mr. SIFTON.

trade of Canada and to develop commerce through Canadian ports, should be constructed and operated as a common railway highway across the Dominion, from ocean to ocean, and wholly within Canadian territory.

If there is anything deserving of the hearty co-operation of every true Canadian, whatever section of the country he may come from, or whatever may be his origin, it is the policy of striving to the best of our ability to develop this country and advance it in the march of progress. The, span of human life, Sir, is set at seventy years. This young nation has not yet lived the average span allotted to each individual, and it is not more than half of that time since the intellectual giants, who then guided the destinies of Canada, discussed the advisability of building a transcontinental railway. Today we are following in their footsteps. Today we are about to repeat the lesson they taught us. Canada has made immense strides since 1871, when a transcontinental railway was first mooted, and since 1885 when it was opened to the public. Tlie strides which Canada has made since then are without parallel in the history of modern times, and we are now facing the imperative necessity of building a second transcontinental line. This question comes before us at an opportune time, at a time when the leaders of commerce, recruited from all parts.of the British empire, are meeting in our metropolitan city for the purpose of discussing the progress and advancement of that empire of which Canada forms to-day so prominent a part. It is fitting that we should realize our obligation and our duty, and it is gratifying to the Canadian people to know that the business men of the British empire realize to-day the possibilities of Canada. These men, assembled from all parts of the British empire, will shortly leave Montreal to go down to the Pacific coast. In their voyage through this country, they will see an object lesson and will learn what industry, patience and perseverance can accomplish in a few short years. The preamble of this Bill, Sir, is justified by what has taken place during the last fifteen years in the North-west. May I be permitted to read here the words of an eminent journalist, published in the city of Montreal. He thus describes the possibilities of our North-west and the actual stage which that country has reached today :

Canada's food producing resources, even in their present partially developed state, are giving a good account of themselves, contributing to our exports of last year a little more than one-half of the total value of goods sent abroad. Canada's total exports last year amounted to $211,640,286, and of these the food products had a value of $109,326,319, the leading articles of food exports being : grain, $32,751,400; flour and meal, $4,369,781; cheese, $19,-870*072; fish, $14,187,070; animals for food, $12,-342*489; meats, $14,161,565. After feeding five and a half millions of people at home the food producing resources yielded a surplus of over

one hundred million dollars. Great Britain took $81,961,000 worth, and the United States $5,023,000. The wheat crop alone amounted to 98,654,000 bushels, being 38,000,000 bushels more than were raised in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and 55,000,000 bushels more than the entire crop of Australia, New Zealand and Tasmania. Ontario, for many years the leading wheat producing province, now has to take second place, for last year her yield was only 26,904,000 bushels, while that of Manitoba was 54,750,000 bushels. And only patches of the Canadian west have as yet known the plough. Manitoba and the three territories, Assiniboia, Saskatchewan and Alberta, contain an area of 270,000,000 acres, of which 135,000,000 acres are good land capable of yielding abundant harvests. Of these 135,000 000 acres only 4,000,000 acres are under cultivation. Over the other 131,000,000 acres the '.prairie grass still waves and beckons the people of the crowded east and the still more crowded centres of the old world to come and possess the land. And here a problem in proportion suggests itself. Four million acres of Manitoba and the three territories are cultivated, and the population is 391,000; what will the population be when one-half the tillable land is under cultivation? The answer is six and one-half millions, or on.e million more than the present population of all Canada. This is only a hint of the possibilites of na-tonal growth dependent upon the development of Canada's agricultural resources.

It is easily seen that the preamble of this measure is fully warranted and fully proved by what we have at present before us. Is Canada to stand by and allow this western country to be invaded, as it was this year, by 100,000 immigrants, a number greater than the number of those who came in during all our twenty years under the so-called national policy ? Are we to allow these people to take possession of our country, to become masters of the Canadian west, as others of their kind became masters of the American west ? Are we to remain satisfied with our present canal system, with our present railway system ? Are we who, for five years, have heard on the part of our public men nothing but demands for the improvement of Canada's waterways, the advancement of Canada's progress and the strenuous efforts that should be made to realize Canada's Immense possibilities, to remain inert while others move ? I am sorry that the Conservative party, which, in the past, has done great things for this country without doubt ; I am sorry that to-day its policy is limited to that which Eas been expounded in this House by its leader. That policy, I have no hesitation in saying, is not worthy the traditions of the Conservative party. If Sir John Macdonald and Sir Charles Tupper were still in political life, men who were the pioneers of the first transcontinental railway, such a policy would never have been accepted, but we should have seen these men working with the majority of the Canadian people to-day for the building of a second transcontinental railway, which is the only natural sequence of the first constructed road.

The leader of the opposition (Mr. Borden, Halifax), in concluding his remarks, used these words :

This, Mr. Speaker, is an outline of the policy which I would submit as an alternative to that proposed by the government. It is a policy based upon an abiding and abounding hope and confidence in the future of this country; a policy which looks to an enormous development in Canada within the next few years; a policy which, I trust, is not unworthy of the traditions of that great party which made the North-west a part of Canada, which bound together the scattered provinces of Canada by a railway stretching from the Atlantic to the Pacific, and which, from first to last, has believed in and advocated a national policy, not only for the development of our industrial life, but also for the solution of the great transportation problems of this country.

Mr. Speaker, I am but one of the humble members of this House ; but, in the name of the people I represent, in the name of the constituency which was represented in this House for long years by members of the Conservative party, I know I give expression to the Conservative sentiment of my county in saying that the present policy submitted to the consideration of this House is unworthy of the past of the Conservative party. We are told that the time has come when Canada must grapple with the difficulties that confront her, when Canada must decide at the parting of the ways, whether the trade of this country shall reach the two oceans, shall reach the motherland and reach Asia, through Canadian channels or by way of American territory. We have heard the system of transportation discussed in all its phases in this House. We have heard all that can be said in favour of our waterways and in favour of our different systems of railway transportation ; and, after having heard the whole discussion, after having heard that question treated in all its different phases, there is an almost unanimous opinion in this House that our waterways and transportation system are not up to the times, are not what they should be. And yet we are told to-day by the leader of that Conservative party that we must rest satisfied with what we have. We are told that we must use the Intercolonial Railway, which ; was built at a cost of $70,000,000 for political and military service, and in the operations of which we have lost, in round numbers. $20,000,000 ; we are told that we must build a branch line from Jacques Cartier junction, must use the Canada Atlantic Railway to Depot Harbour, then build another branch line or use the Canadian Pacific Railway to Port Arthur and Fort William, thence utilize the two present railway systems to Winnipeg, from Winnipeg to Edmonton encourage the present railways, or help the Grand Trunk if necessary, and then give the Canadian Northern, or the Grand Trunk, or the government, power to build from Edmonton to the Pacific coast. That, very imperfectly described, is the

policy of the Conservative party at the present moment. That is not a policy which will commend itself to the approval of the Canadian people. It will limit Canada to what it is at the present time. It will limit our inhabited area. Beyond this, it has one radical and fatal effect, which is sure to bring about the condemnation throughout the length and breadth of the Dominion. The fatal effect of that policy is that it has no reference whatever to the new portions of Quebec, the new portions of Ontario and the new portions of the Canadian west. We are told that our immense territory in the province of Quebec of 70,000,000 acres, and that the immense stretch of new land in the province of Ontario, is to be traversed by a colonization road, to be built gradually, as circumstances warrant-to be built, I suppose, at the rate of ten or twenty miles a year, as colonization roads are generally built. Is that the policy the Conservative ' party approves of for this country at the opening of this new century, when Canada is merging into nationhood and is taking the proud position on this continent for which Providence destined her from her earliest days ? That is not a policy that will commend Itself to the people of the part of the country from whence I come. And I have a conviction that it will not appeal to the national aspirations of any Canadian, no matter what province he may belong to. This policy is unworthy of the consideration of parliament, and we must therefore consider the other policy which is before us.

We are asked to assist in the construction of a transcontinental railway. The need of that transcontinental railway has been manifested over and over again during the last few years in every possible way. The immigration into the North-west .-justifies the Construction of this road. Let me give you some figures to show the rate at which that immigration has invaded the western country. In 1S97, there were 21,000 settlers ; in 1898, 31,000 ; in 1899. 44,000 ; in 1900, 49,000 ; in 1901-2, 67,000 ; in 1902-3, 125,295. In one single year. Mr. Speaker, more than all the people of the province of Prince Edward Island went into that western country. The Increase that has already taken place would warrant faith in the new transcontinental project.

But thefe are other considerations which must not be overlooked. The trade of that country must remain to Canada, and the only way in which we can secure its remaining to Canada is by giving it access to the sea. The present Canadian Pacific Railway is not able to meet the requirements of the traffic. We have heard a good deal this session and last session about the congestion of traffic. We have therefore to face the situation, we must face the obligation which is imposed upon us. Shall we undertake the task which lies at our

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LIB

Charles Marcil

Liberal

Mr. MARCIL (Bonaventure).

door ? I have confidence in my country, I have confidence that the generation to which we belong is worthy of the generation that has gone before us, and that we will be able to cope with the requirements of the present. What do we ask the Canadian people to do ? Do we ask them to hand over to the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company $100,000,000 or $125,000,000, as the Conservative party did when they first opened up that western country ? We have heard the statement of the Minister of Finance, we have heard the statement of the right lion, the Prime Minister, neither of which have been challenged, that all that Canada would be called upon to pay to secure a new transcontinental road of over 3,000 miles in length, is the sum of $14,000,000, equal to the surplus of one single year. Under these circumstances hesitation would be folly on our part, and if we did hesitate we would not be worthy of the position which we occupy at the present time. The steady advance in population and production in that western country fully justify the construction of this road. The hon. member for Charlotte (Mr. Ganong) who spoke last night, referring to the scheme of the leader of the opposition, used these words :

It becomes a patriotic scheme, as it will be a people's road, built by the people's money, ar,d controlled by the people, rather than a contribution of $125,000,000 to build tip a distinctly foreign corporation over which the government can have no possible control.

That, Mr. Speaker, is not, I am sure, the feeling of the Conservative party towards the old Grand Trunk Railway Company of Canada. The old Grand Trunk Railway Company of Canada is not a foreign corporation. Those who are old enough remember the day when the Grand Trunk Company rwas hailed as a blessing to this country. There is not a member of the province of Ontario who would rise in his seat and depreciate the Grand Trunk of Canada ; there is not a member of the province of Quebec who would attempt to do so. I presume that our hon. friend from Charlotte, hailing as he does from New Brunswick, does not know the real advantages which the Grand Trunk have conferred upon old Canada. In a slighting way he tried to make light of the $25,000,000 which was advanced to the Grand Trunk Railway by the Conservative party, by the -men in whose footsteps he is trying to walk, which sum still remains as an asset in our books, to prevent the winding up of the road altogether, and to prevent the failure of the whole undertaking. That $25,000,000 was advanced to enable the Grand Trunk Railway to carry out its undertaking, and we were told at the time that it would be a last charge upon the road. That money has not been collected, but I may say also that that money has been well invested : and to-day we are proud, we in Quebec especial-

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ly are glad to know that it is the Grand Trunk- Railway Company that is going to undertake this great scheme. We know that our sons and our brothers and those of our jjeople who have left the older pro-yinces to carve out new homes for themselves in Manitoba and the North-west will feel that they are still at home that they are still in Canada when they see the old familiar name of the Grand Trunk Railway inscribed upon the cars and locomotives that run through that country. They will see that it is a contribution of eastern Canada towards the development [DOT] of western Canada, and the name alone will show them that we have undertaken this work in sympathy with them in the west as well as in the interest of eastern Canada. It would be nonsense to suppose that the Grand Trunk Railway of Canada would for ever have confined its operations to the provinces of Quebee and Ontario ; it was inevitable that the time should come when the Grand Trunk Railway would invade the western prairies would cross the territories of Canada and reach out to the Pacific ocean. That tim.e Mr. Speaker has arrived, we believe that time is now upon us. We believe that that work should be commenced now. We do not believe in putting it off one year, or five years, or ten years. We want that work to proceed now. We want the Governor General of this country to come down here a few days hence and in the name of one of the greatest sovereigns who has ever honoured the throne of Great Britain, to place the seal of approval upon the scheme which is now laid before this House for consideration. We want this year to be marked as a red letter year in the history of Canada. We want, within the next two years, to set 25,000 men at work from Moncton to Port Simpson. We want the outlay of $75,000,000 to commence now. We want the good times of the last seven years in Canada to continue for seven years longer, at least, while this project is being accomplished. That is our policy, and we should adhere to it.

One of the first gentlemen to rise in this House and criticise this scheme was the exMinister of Railways and Canals, the hon. member for St. John city (Hon. Mr. Blair). That hon. gentleman had never previously possessed the confidence of the opposition in this House. Sir, I do not think any one can find, during all the six years that hon. gentleman lias occupied a seat in this House, one single word of tribute from a Conservative to his ability as Minister of Railways and Canals. For six years no word was strong enough to denounce his management of the Intercolonial. There is not a member of the opposition whose words cannot be found in the ' Hansard ' condemning the hon. gentleman who has now become the prophet of the Conservative pqrty. I visited the county of Restigouche last fall in company with the exMinister of Railways, which county adjoins my own, and listened to an address by that hon. gentleman to the people there. His policy then was to extend the Intercolonial via the Canada Atlantic Railway, and to carry it up to the great lakes. There is no novelty in this policy now proposed by the government, it is the old policy of the hon. ex-minister. Therefore we are driven to the conclusion that the Conservative party have had to adopt the policy of the ex-min-k ister since they have no policy of their own.

Now, Mr. Speaker, I do not wish to think unfavourably of our hon. friends opposite, and I feel that before the final word has been said in regard to this project, there will be found members on the other side of the House who, if they do not support this scheme, will at least refrain from condemning it by either their words or their votes. There are men on the other side of the.House who represent constituencies in Ontario and who know by experience what is meant by the Grand Trunk Railway of Canada undertaking a scheme like this. There are men on the other side of this House who will not condemn this undertaking when it has the approval of the Grand Trunk Railway Company.

But, Mr. Speaker, I do not intend to detain the House for any great length of time and I have no intention at the present time of covering the whole ground involved in this debate which has already been so prolonged and which promises to be continued during several days yet. We have heard from the members of British Columbia of the immense advantage which the construction of this railway would be in the northern part of British Columbia, we have heard the story told us of the immense' riches of British Columbia, of its timber, of its forests, of its fisheries, which are unsurpassed in the whole world, we have heard the story of the North-west, we have heard that of Manitoba, we have heard that of Ontario and Quebec, but the story of Quebec has not all been told. There is an hon. member sitting in this House who is styled by his colleagues the Conservative leader for the province of Quebec. That h in. gentleman, Mr. Speaker, lays c-laim to occupy in our province the proud position that was once held by Sir George E. Cartier. Sir George B. Cartier would never have come before this House in 1903 to ask for the construction of a colonization railway in the northern empire of the province of Quebec. The hon. member for Jacques Cartier (Mr. Monk) has laid before us a policy of that kind. I know, understanding as I do, the sentiment that exists in the province of Quebec, that the province of Quebec will not adopt any such policy. Let it not be forgotten, though misinformed people or misguided people have in the past declared the province of Quebec was the most backward province in the

Dominion of Canada, that the first link In the Canadian Pacific Railway was built by the province of Quebec out of its own resources as a provincial undertaking. The mother province of this Dominion, because Quebec is the mother province of this Dominion, the province which gave the signal for the construction of the first transcontinental line in Canada, will never go back upon the revered leader of the Liberal party who undertakes to build a second transcontinental line. I have no hesitation in saying that the hon. member for Jacques Cartier will not be able to find in the province of Quebec half a dozen constituencies to support bis policy, or the policy of the Conservative party, and that if that is the policy upon which he intends facing the people in the coming election, the seven members who now support him in the House will be reduced still more in number. That is my candid opinion, and it is the opinion that prevails throught the province of Quebec. As I have said, I intend more .especially to refer to the province of Quebec. When we, some years ago, obtained the addition to our territory of 70,000,000 acres of land, when the limits of Quebec were extended up to Lake Abitibi on the west, to Hudson bay on the north, and to Labrador on the east, a problem rose immediately before the people of Quebec. The idea was at once to invade that land, to inhabit it, to people it and to repeat in that northern territory what the French Canadian people have done in Canada, a thing that is unparalleled in the history of the world-the sixty thousand people of 1763 who were in Canada at the time of the cession of the treaty of Paris raised to 2,000,000 people in 100 years. Where is there an example of that kind ? We wish, in promoting this scheme, to repeat what has been done during 100 years by the people of Quebec. We want to invade those new lands, we want to take possession of them and we want to keep them for this country and for the flag under which the French Canadians have attained the position they occupy today. During the last thirty or forty years in the history of Canada what has become of the million of surplus of our population, what has become of that million of souls who to-day inhabit every state of the American union, who are to be found from Portland, Maine, to Portland, Oregon, who have gone there to find the sustenance, to find the livelihood which they were unable to find in their own country, being limited as it is to within forty or fifty miles from the banks of the St. Lawrence beyond which is the wilderness We want to reverse what nas been going on during the last forty years. We want, during the next twenty years, to retain the million in the surplus of our population in the province of Quebec, and we want them, instead of going south, to go north. We want to give another object lesson. When the Canadian Pacific

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LIB

Charles Marcil

Liberal

Mr. MARCIL (Bonaventure).

Railway stretched its road through Nipis-sing and Algoma, those districts were a wilderness. Look at them to-day ; look at Nipissing, look at Algoma. We wish to repeat along the line of this new transcontinental railway what has been done in Nipissing and Algoma. We want to retain in Canada the citizen of the province of Quebec, because he loves his native country. It is his native soil, in which is to be found everything he cherishes, and in which he has the liberty and protection of his institutions, in which he has prospered and for which he is willing to live and to die, and to remain, regardless of what may be said and what has been said so often, to the last ditch the most devoted and loyal citizen that Britain has at this time. The opening up of this region from Quebec to Lake Abitibi opens up for us a new area, a new vista. While the old country settler, while the Scotchman, the Irishman, the Englishman and the German will go to Manitoba and the North-west Territories, and take up a farm on the fertile prairie where he can raise a crop in the first year, and where he can make a fortune in five years, the French Canadian habitant will go to the wilderness, he will go into the rough woods, he will go where he will have to cut down the trees, to hew out the timber, and where it will take him twenty years, if necessary, to establish a farm that will be a worthy counterpart of the farm that the European settler will find .in Manitoba and the North-west Territories two years after he goes there. Our people are well qualified for this particular section of the country, and for this particular work. They have proved it abundantly in the past, and I believe that what we are doing to-day is one of the most patriotic works which we can d>

for the future solution of the question of Canadian nationality and British supremacy. There are men in this House to-day who will see in twenty years hence rise cities, towns and villages, rise on the whole course of the new transcontinental railway from Quebec to Winnipeg. We have in that country immense water-powers, we have fertile lands testified to by out missionaries, by our explorers, and by all who have travelled through that country. We have magnificent wood of all kinds. We have pulpwood, from which we will in twenty years supply the whole British Empire. We have all the conditions that are necessary to the doubling in our own lifetime of the population of the province of Quebec, and what will he done in the province of Quebec will be done in the province of Ontario. And what we have done in Quebec will, be done in Ontario, but I am speaking now more specially of the province of Quebec. The government of Ontario has realized its duty in that regard. The Temiscamingue Railway which is now building is the first stage towards the invasion of that northern

country. We wish in a word to open up Canada. We wish to develop its area; we wish to keep our people at home. We do not wish to meet young Canadians full of brawn and sinew, men of energy, who tell us we must go to the United States for our living; we must go to the United States for our work. We must find work for them in Canada; we want to develop our own resources; we want to make Canada what it should he; we want to put an end to that state of affairs which has existed for so long, when almost as many people from the maritime provinces were found in the United States as remained in the maritime provinces. We want to put an end to the exodus from Quebec which fortunately has stopped during the last five or six years and without saying one word derogatory to the hon. gentleman who has preceded me-the bon. member for Charlotte (Mr. Ganong)-I would say that I was sincerely pained, last night when I saw that hon. gentleman, one of the representatives of New Brunswick, one of the representatives of the people of that province, rise from his seat and blinded by party exigencies and partisan motives, stand up against a project that will be the salvation of New Brunswick. Here is New Brunswick with its magnificent rivers, with its splendid lumber, with its splendid soil, with its population drawn from the old United Empire Loyalist stock, second to none in Canada, second to none in the world. Here New Brunswick for the last twenty years has been going back and back and losing population. We shall pass in a few days in this House a law which shall deprive New Brunswick of another of her representatives. Is it not time for the people and the representatives of that province to rise to the exigencies of the hour 7 I was sorry to see the position that the hon. member for Charlotte (Mr. Ganong) took, but the position he took was the natural sequence of the ideas that unfortunately prevail on the other side of the House. He was willing it is true to have a railway through New Brunswick but that railway would have to go to St. Andrews and it should not go to Moncton; that was the qualification which he placed upon it. Mr. Speaker, I represent a portion of Gaspesia. The transcontinental railway is not going to Gaspesia. It is a country which has been deprived of railways for many years. We have in the peninsula 10,000 square miles. We have there at the present time 75,000 people, 25,000 in Gasp6, 25,000 in Bonaven-ture and 25,000 in Matane-75,000 people and practically we are without railways. There are none in Matane none in Gaspe and a limping bankrupt railway in Bonaventure. In the name of the old settlers of the Gas-pesian peninsula, they who have contributed their mite and their share to the building of railways all through Canada, I am willing to come forward now to support this scheme because I feel that it is to the general advantage of Canada. Now, Mr. Speaker, if I were to take the position in this House that was taken last evening by the member for Charlotte, and would have to go back to my people and re d r an account of my stewardship, I would be ashamed to show my face because the people in that part of the country realize that the advancement and progress of Canada can only be assured by the construction of railways. The railway is the modern agency; the railway is the modern level-. Blighted is the country without railways. Blighted is the country through which the shrill cry of the locomotive is not heard. There Is no part of Canada which has not been benefited by a railway; lines have been duplicated between Montreal and Ottawa. They have been duplicated in every part of Ontario. In the western peninsula of Ontario the saying is that you cannot go ten miles in any direction without striking a railway. The result of that is that Ontario and especially the western peninsula of Ontario has become one of the most fertile, one of the most prosperous parts of Canada. We wish to do for other parts of Canada what railways have done there; we wish to increase our territory, and to develop it to the best of our knowledge.

The part of the scheme to which I wish to refer more especially now is that extend ng from the city of Quebec to the city of Moncton because it traverses the part of Canada from which I come. That portion of the road has been greatly criticised, and still it is but a small part of the undertaking, it is a small part; but it is a necessary part. From all time we have heard from experienced men that the port of Quebec was beyond peradventure the great port of Canada, but the port of Quebec unfortunately is closed for some months in the year. The port of Quebec stands second to none in the world during the summer time. You have there a magnificent frontage from Pointe-d-Carcy up to the new Quebec bridge that is building, a frontage of ten or twelve miles, one of the finest harbours you could find anywhere. We are ^bringing this transcontinental railway to Quebec; we are bringing it back to the point from which civilization started in this country, from which the colonization movement began in this country. We are coming back from the portals of the west and of the new land, back to the city of Quebec from which the original explorers of this continent started. We are coming back with the modern locomotive to the rock of Champlain and Montcalm from which the explorers left in bark canoes to cover this continent from end to end. We are as the hon. member for North Norfolk (Mr. Charlton) has said, bringing back to Quebec that which Quebec gave to this continent, but unfortunately our climatic conditions are such that we can concentrate the trade of Canada at Quebec for only seven or eight months of the year. We have to find an out-

let for the other months. There is one thing we might have done. We might have been satisfied with the Intercolonial Railway, we might have continued to accumulate deficit upon deficit as did the Conservative party for twenty years, losing probably $500,000 a year. Is there any Canadian in Canada who is not satisfied that the Intercolonial Railway can never be a commercial success 7 Has that not been demonstrated by thirty years of experience 1 Is there any railway man in Canada or out of Canada who will contend that a road which has to cover 700 miles when only 400 need be covered will ever be a success ?

Why should we continue any longer to struggle against nature, to struggle against distance when the Gordian knot can be cut and the problem solved 1 I have not a word to say against the construction of the Intercolonial Railway where it was constructed; at the time it was necessary. The .population of New Brunswick, the population of Quebec, lived along the shores of the St. Lawrence and along the shores of the Baie des Chaleurs. It had not yet penetrated into the interior of New Brunswick or the province of Quebec, but those days are long since gone by. The original settlements which were stretched along the St. Lawrence have now extended to the Maine frontier and beyond the Blaine frontier and are invading the United States. We wish therefore to open up the rear portion of Quebec along the state of Blaine. We do not wish the Canadians who live there and who have lived there for many long years to have to drive 25, 30, 40 and 50 miles to reach a railway station in this modern age of progress in Canada. That is the reason therefore, Mr. Speaker, why this new line is being built; to benefit materially seven or eight constituencies immediately concerned.

There are constituencies in that district represented in this House by Conservative members, and I am interested to know what position those members will take if they undertake to give expression to the feeling that prevails in that district. From there the railway crosses Qie province of New Brunswick. The exact line has not yet been defined; but we can trust to the engineers and surveyors to lay it out properly. The distance to our winter ports will be cut down by at least 100 miles, which is a great gain. From Bloncton to Halifax the road will be doubled tracked, the distance to St. .Tolin will be made much shorter than it is, and we shall have at last a through railway bringing the products of Canada to the winter ports of Canada. Why should we stop at North Bay, and be content that Canada should have some of the western traffic during six months of the year, and lose the whole of it during the other six months ? We know that during the summer time a great deal of the traffic goes by the canals and the railways to Montreal, but that in the winter time the whole of it Mr. MARCH, (Bonaventure).

goes to Portland, Boston and New York. We have constructed elevators at Halifax for the Intercolonial, in the hope of filling them with grain, but they have remained empty. We have spent money to improve the sendee at St. John ; but the task has been beyond us, because we are struggling against nature and against distance, like a man struggling against the current. We want to solve this problem once and for all by taking the shortest and most direct route to the maritime provinces after the port of Quebec is closed, and the proposed railway will take it. We want the people of the maritime provinces to know that they are still part and parcel of this Dominion. We want them to help us to build up our country, and to share in any benefits that may come to the country.

But there is another feature of the scheme which lias been overlooked by our Conservative friends and by the lion. ex-Blinister of Railways and Canals (Hon. BIr. Blair). The hon. gentleman seems to have conveyed to the members of this House the idea that has prevailed for many years that the Intercolonial Railway was built solely for the purpose of connecting the maritime provinces with the old provinces of Canada, and that the sole object of the management of that railway was to see in how short a time a train could be rushed from Halifax to Quebec aud Blontreal. In the Blatapedia valley, in my own constituency, we have Intercolonial trains running at the rate of forty or fifty miles an hour during the night, and stopping at only two or three stations in a run of 100 miles. Thirty years of experience have demonstrated that the Intercolonial Railway as a through line has been a dead failure, and that it should be used for other purposes. Speaking in the name of the people who inhabit that district, I say that we want the Intercolonial to be used for the benefit of the district through which it runs. We want to abandon this phantom race, this attempt to make time and to cover endless distances uselessly. We want the Intercolonial Railway to benefit the district through which it runs. The main line of the Intercolonial Railway is about 837 miles in length, and it has about 500 miles of branches in different parts of the provinces of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick. Hon. members would not probably imagine, but the fact is, that we have not one mile of branch line or of feeders to the Intercolonial Railway in the province of Quebec, although we have more of the main line in the province of Quebec than there is in the maritime provinces. The distance from Blatapedia to Blontreal is 452 miles, which is greater than the distance from Blatapedia to Halifax. We want, therefore, to use this short line which we are about to build for the purpose of local and through-traffic, and we want to utilize the Intercolonial Railway for the development of local and through-traffic where

it can be found. In the Gaspesia peninsula there are at the present time

75.000 people. Build the Matane Railway from St. Octave to Metis, to Matane and ultimately to the Gnspe Basin, assist in completing the Atlantic and Bake Superior Railway, on which $1,600,000 of the public money of this country has been wasted ; assist it to reach the Gaspe Basin, and to secure at once the traffic of a peninsula of

12.000 square miles, rich in fisheries, rich in farming lands, rich in puljf wood. You have there a local traffic which will more than duplicate any through-traffic which you may obtain for the Intercolonial Railway. Build the short line from Fraserville to Matapedia and open up over 100 miles of splendiu country in Temiscouata, ltimouski and Bona venture. Mr. Speaker, that is the first condition that should not be overlooked. Then, the Intercolonial Railway has been brought by the Liberal party up to its present state of efficiency. It is now a railway second to none on the American continent. Its bridges have been strengthened and improved, and some of them have been replaced by new ones. The steel rails have been replaced by larger ones ; the whole roadbed is in prime condition ; and the equipment of the line is in first-class order. It no longer stops at Levis, but runs to the city of Montreal, where it has a binding agreement with the Grand Trunk Railway for 99 years for the transfer of traffic. The future of the Intercolonial Railway is assured. But are we to rest satisfied with what our fathers did thirty or thirty-five years- ago ? We want to improve on their work. We waiit to develop that portion of the country through which the Intercolonial Railway passes. We built the eastern extension to Sydney and to Cape Breton when there were not 100,000 people in the whole of Cape Breton. We have now 75,000 in the Gaspesia peninsula without any railway at all. Develop that district. Develop the whole district along the south shore of the St. Lawrence, where you will find lumber mills and other industries every few miles, as well as on the north shore of the Baie des Chaleurs. At present the peninsula of Gaspesia is a terra incognita to us, almost as much as the far-off regions of Canada. We have had a government railroad running through that country, but making no attempt to increase the local traffic or to develop the resources of the country, whether in agriculture, fisheries or anything else. We have had encouragement from the present government towards that end, but I hope that this House will realize that the Intercolonial Railway, when it was built, had not for its sole object the connecting of the maritime provinces with the old provinces of Canada, but that it was also the intention of the men who built it, that it should benefit the country through which it runs. That can be done, and done easily, and I know that the government of the day,

and any other government that has at heart the interest of eastern Quebec and of western New Brnnswick, will see that what can t>e done in that direction shall be done. The traffic of the Intercolonial Railway is now $6,500,000, of which only one million is through-traffic, and our local traffic could be doubled within the next five years if means were taken to develop it and if all our -energies be not bent on running fast through trains over the road. I intended to give some facts and figures in connnec-tion with the local traffic, but as these were laid before the House yesterday by my hon. friend from Cumberland (Mr. Logan) I shall not take up the time of the House by doing so.

I am in favour of this transcontinental road because it is going to open up all parts of Canada, because it is going to develop new regions, because it will bring the west closer to the east. I am iu favour of it, further, because it will develop the province in which I am more particularly interested, and also because it will give expression to the national aspirations and ambitions of the Canadian people. On the threshold of this twentieth centivy, with the portals of the future opening broadly before us, this, is not the time for a sturdy young nation like ours to hesitate in her march of progress. This is the time for us to be up and doing, and I believe that every man who casts his vote in favour of this measure will have reason in after years to feel proud of what he has done. He will realize that he did something to break down provincial barriers and prejudices, to bring the various provinces nearer together, and to hasten the advent of that day when a citizen of the province of Quebec can go to Fort Simpson and feel that he is still in his own home. I shall not, like the hon. member for West Toronto (Mr. Osier), look merely at the mercenary side of the question. I shall not stop to calculate what the extent of our dividends may be or the amount of our earnings. A government which is worthy of its mission, has other things to do than earn dividends. It does not exist for that purpose It exists for the purpose of advancing the interests of the country confided to it, and there is .no project which cau be laid before this House which would do half as much for Canada as this will. It can no longer be said that the Liberal party is nothing but a party of critics who spent their time criticising the building of the Canadian Pacific Railway. The Liberal party, Sir, in the days when that great transcontinental railway was being pro-' looted, were not opposed to the idea, but to the methods employed. There, were no more patriotic Canadians than the Dorions, the Blakes, the Haltons, and our present leader, who took part in the debate on the Canadian Pacific Railway project. AA'hnt the Liberal party is now doing is to give expression to the wishes of the Canadian

people. It is putting another entrenched camp in British North America. Our present transcontinental system is within twenty-four hours' inarch of any American army which would invade this country, but by the projected system we shall be able, in case of necessity, to maintain our communications from ocean to ocean, which we cannot do at present. Ask the Minister of Militia what would happen between North Bay and Winnipeg if difficulties should intervene. Who would guard that immense territory to the north of Bake Superior, that hinterland which divides eastern from western Canada ? But once build this new railway, open up that northern region to the children of our soil, let the Canadians from our eastern provinces invade it, let them know that it is their home, and we shall have nothing to fear. We shall see then in that country what Martha Craig so graphically described in Western Ontario. Martha Craig uses these eloquent words:

On either side, from the placid chore to the foothills of the protecting mountains, stretched fertile lands on which hundreds of thousands of fruit trees flourish. In this earthly paradise live a happy, rich and prosperous people. As we wander through the orchards in the springtime and inhale the delightful perfume of the breezes laden with drifts of apple blossoms, we can hardly realize that a hundred years ago this fertile land was a trackless forest, rhe abode of the Indian and the savage beast. But the hand of time has worked this transformation, using as its instruments the energy end perseverance of the Saxon. Those men who have made the wilderness blossom as the lose are true heroes. Theirs was not one dash of bravery and then victory. No, the battle they fought was waged from day to day from year to year, in heat and cold, without flinching and without, turning back. These are true noblemen and heroes that all men delight to honour.

Those are the men we should imitate. It is in the fields of peace, of human activity, that we must use the energies of our young Canadian nation, and if the time should ever come when we must shoulder the musket, Canadians will be found ready to answer the call. But militarism is not the idea which we must foster in this country. What we require to develop are the arts of peace, and we can never do so more effectively than by putting through this measure, which will double the present inhabited area of Canada, almost double its resources, and unite our provinces in one great and happy land.

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CON

Uriah Wilson

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. URIAH WILSON (Lennox).

not distributed like other Bills, why the resolutions were not placed on the Order paper in the ordinary way. 1 have not heard any excuse for it up to the present time, either from the First Minister, from the Minister of Finance or from the Minister of the Interior, all of whom have spoken. When the First Minister brought down his Bill to this House, he said :

To those who tell us, wait, wait, wait ; to those who advise us to pause, to consider, to reflect, to calculate and to inquire, our answer is : No.

Now, Sir, that does not seem to me to be a very sensible view to take of this great question. I think in view of the instructions of the good old hook which says that every man should be able to give a reason of the hope that is in him, we would have been in better shape to follow tjiem if he had not been keeping things so closely to himself. Then he goes on to say :

This is not a time for deliberation, this is a time lor auction. The flood tide is upon us that leads on to fortune ; if we let it pass it may never recur again.

Well, now, I would like to know what signs there are of a flood tide being upon us, or what need there is of this great hurry. I cannot see anything within the range of my vision except that these railway magnates have been chasing them up and down, here and there, and pressing their claims upon them.

If we let it pass the voyage of our national life, bright as it is to-day, will be bound in shallow's.

Well, what a pity.

We cannot wait, because time does not wait It is immediate and imperative. It is not of to-morrow, but of this day, of this hour and of this minute. Heaven grant that it be not already too late. . . . and that an ever vigilant competitor does not take to himself the trade that properly belongs to those who acknowledge Canada as their native or their adopted land.

Now, Sir, we have entered into an agreement with the Grand Trunk Pacific Company. We have agreed, as I understand, to build from Moncton to Winnipeg at govern- I ment expense, while we give a charter to the Grand Trunk Pacific to build from Winnipeg west to the Pacific coast. Now it has been presented1 to this House by several hon. members that the Grand Trunk Pacific will have their share of the road built long before the section can be built from Winnipeg to Moncton ; and it has been pointed out that there is no provision in the contract whereby the Grand Trunk Pacific will operate the eastern part of the road until it is all finished. Now the question is : What will they do with it V

Will they keep it lying idle, put the rails on, and let them rust, and have nothing to do with it ? Not only that, but the Grand Trunk Pacific will be busy gathering its

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CON

Uriah Wilson

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. WILSON.

trade in the North-west, they will be bringing it to Winnipeg and finding an outlet for it. As was pointed out very clearly the other night by the hon. member for Hamilton (Mr. Barker), after they find it they will carry it into the United States, where they have lines running to St. Paul, and they can easily make their through-connections with that system so that they will ultimately take it through the United States to the seaports. In that case what will become of the all-Canadian route ? Now, it seems to me that after all, the ex-Minister of Railways took the proper position. He says that if you want to go into this arrangement, let us say to parliament, we are prepared to build another transcontinental railway if it is found to be necessary. Let us ask for an appropriation to explore the country and to survey a route, then we will be in a position to act intelligently. I think that was the proper course. I understand that the government tried every means possible to induce the ex-minister not to retire, but to retain his position, and he laid down the principles on which he would stay, and they were very strong ones, and they were pretty sensible, in my judgment. The letter of the ex-minister of the 16th of July, 1903, you will find in the ' Hansard ' on page 6743:

I would require that the government should abandon its present intention :-

1st. Of building or authorizing the building of a line of railway to Moncton, which would be paralleling and destroying the Intercolonial; or building or authorizing the building of any other line of railway more remote from the Intercolonial, until the need of such latter railway becomes apparent, and proper surveys and an estimate of its cost are first made and thoroughly considered.

Now, we have been spending, as everybody knows, a large amount of money on the Intercolonial, I believe since these gentlemen came into office they have spent $15,000,000. This very last year they had an appropriation for $3,260,000 more to be spent on the Intercolonial. Before they had made up their minds to go into this new scheme they brought down in their estimates another appropriation for the present year which, if they are going to build a new railway and destroy the usefulness of the Intercolonial, I do not think they will require. They ask this year for $2,054,550 for repairs on the Intercolonial, yet some of the hon. members opposite have said that if they built this road it would ruin the Intercolonial altogether, and in a country such as that through which the Intercolonial passes I think one railway can do all the business that is to be done. Then the ex-minister lays down his second proposition :

2n.d. The idea of immediately proceeding with a railway from Quebec to Winnipeg. The government should be content with declaring itself in favour of the policy of building a government line from Quebec to the prairies, and across the prairies to the Pacific coast, as soon as the need shall arise ; and in the meantime

that parliament be asked for an amount to enable a thorough exploration of the country to be made, so that it might be possible to judge whether or not a suitable traffic producing route could be found through this district, and its cost and the character and conditions of the country through which it is to pass ascertained.

Now, Mr. Speaker, it seems to me that that statement commends itself to the common sense of every business man. But L want to say one thing more. While the Railway Committee was fighting hard to get a charter through, supposing they were honestly providing a charter for the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway, it appears that the First Minister was making a bargain with Mr. Hays, the manager of the Grand Trunk Railway. I think any person who knows the two men will agree with me that while the leader of the government might be a better statesman in some respects than Mr. Hays, he is not in any way equal to him so far as railway matters are concerned, and I think it was absolute folly for the First Minister to try to make a bargain. I think it is evident, as was pointed out by the hon. member for Bast Hastings (Mr. Northrup) the other night, that this bargain was very one-sided, and evidently the contract between the government and the Grand Trunk Pacific was drawn up by the solicitors of the company.

Now, Sir, no man in the government pretends to know anything about railways, except the ex-Minister of Railways, who has had a large experience, and who is well known to be an able man. The idea of the First Minister ignoring him and trusting to his own knowledge, in pretending to be an expert and to be a good business man, is absurd. I know that the hon. member for South Wellington (Mr. Guthrie) said that the right hon. Prime Minister had a perfect right to ignore his cabinet, or any member 'of his cabinet, if he saw fit. Nobody disputes that, but the question is was it wise, was it in the best interests of this country, was it in the best interests of the government itself ? My own impression is that it was not. I think if you have an expert at any particular thing, connected with any business you have to do, you had better use his knowledge and influence to keep you right. That is my view, and that is the course that every successful business man must pursue. If he does not know how to do a thing himself he calls in the best assistance he can find. But, Sir, there was no calling in about it. The minister was on hand, and he was prepared to do his part and do it well. Everybody who knows him will admit that. There was another request that would have had to be complied with if he had stayed in the government:

That the policy of giving a present guai an tee or other aid to the company to build a railway and continuation of the Quebec-Winnipeg line through the fertile prairie district, the most valuable and promising section of the whole [DOT]system, should not now he entertained, and that the final decision of the matter he deferred until it became reasonably clear that settlement along the probable route of such railway would justify its construction.

I think that is just as sensible as the rest, and that it is on the right lines. The hon. ex-Minister of Railways and Canals points out the folly of pouring money into this enterprise, notwithstanding these surpluses we have had year after year, of which the hon. Minister of Finance (Hon. Mr. Fielding) is so proud. But it is not difficult to have a surplus if you only keep your books in the right way. All you have to do is to charge enough to capital account and then you will have a surplus, because you can take the balance out of income. The government has been particularly fortunate since they came in, because they have had an overflowing treasury, but I am afraid they have not been able to make very good use of it. They have listened too much to the demands of what are called the grafters and the wire pullers. The hon. ex-Minister of Railways and Canals has told us that the government must adopt these terms or he would retire from the government. I admire his pluck, I admire the courage of a man who will sacrifice, not only social position, but a large salary in the interests of the country. There was an effort made by the government, or by some member of the government, to induce him to stay in. The hon. gentleman said in'his letter that there was a proposition made in Council, or by some of his colleagues, to him that if he could not endorse their policy he could simply sit by and allow somebody else to put the Bill through the House, and he would have nothing to do with it. I admire the pluck of a man who would stand out against any such insinuation, because, as the hon. ex-Mlniste'r of Railways and Canals said, if he had done that he would have been worse than the others. He would have been dishonest through and through. But he took a more courageous and more manly course. He has thrown all the responsibility of this p: licy upon the right hon. Prime Minister and his ministers, and they have to bear it. I think if the government had carried out the policy announced in the speech from the Throne, that they were prepared to appoint a royal commission to investigate the transportation question, they would have had the support of both sides of the House, because this has been a burning question and it has been discussed In this House for a gr.od many years. That was a proposition that was worth considering, and not only was it worth considering, but the transportation question should have been submitted to the men who are the best informed upon that question and upon the wants of the country in that regard. That was a promise that was made by the whole government, hut the right hon. leader of the government did not seem to be nearly so anxious about his own promises as he pretended to be about a promise which he said was made I by this parliament on a former occasion.

He said that there was a promise to build a railway from Salisbury to Fredericton made in 1885, and that it was to implement that promise that he introduced this Bill. As the hon. member for East Hastings (Mr. Northrop) pointed out very clearly the other night, the Bill providing for the construction of the Salisbury-Fredericton line passed this House, but it did not pass the Senate, and that consequently there was no promise contained in the Bill as far as this parliament was concerned. It was only a ptomise that the House was willing to fulfil, provided the other Chamber agreed to it. The right lion, leader of the government told us of a resolution that he had moved In reference to the short line going through Maine, which was as follows :

In the opinion of this House, atditional surveys are requisite in order to a sound decision for the short line railway, and it would to premature to adopt any line before further surveys have been made.

Why has the right lion, gentleman gone back on the views that he held in 1895 ? He considered it necessary that the route of the short line, which had been surveyed once or twice before, and perhaps oftener, should be again surveyed ; yet he has completed a bargain with the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company before he knows where the line is to be located, or before he knows how much it will cost, and which is going through a country of which he himself has no knowledge whatever. But there are other promises which he and his party have made. I recollect reading a speech that he made in Winnipeg, I think, in 1895, when he said that when the Liberal party came into power they would submit a plebiscite, and that if it carried they would give the country prohibition if it cost the Liberal party power for ever. He did carry out part of that pledge. He took into his cabinet a gentleman who he thought would give him weight with the temperance people. He took in the hon. Minister of Agriculture (Hon. Mr. Fisher). He also submitted a plebiscite to the people, and it was carried by good majorities in every province except one. Why is he so anxious to carry out the pledges made by Sir John Macdonald and by the Conservative party and to ignore his own ? These are things for the right hon. gentleman to explain, because these are things that it is difficult for the people to understand. I recollect that he made a speech at Toronto, in which he said: We are going to reduce the public expenditure year by year from one, two, three, and the Hon. Mr. Mills says $4,000,000 per annum. Has the right hon. gentleman and his party implemented that promise ? Have they reduced the public expenditure ? It is about $20,000,000 per annum more now than it was then, and still they were howling on every platform all over the country about the extravagance of the Conservative party. Now, the right hon. gentleman went to Win-Mr. WILSON.

nipeg-I think it was at this same time, in 1895-and he said : I come to preach to you a new gospel, the gospel of free trade as they have it in England. I would like to know how he has implemented that promise. These are only a few of the promises made by the Liberal party. They talked about superannuation ; that was one of their hobbies, and I recollect that Mr. McMullen, now Senator McMullen, used almost to weep on every platform about how the public money was being spent, and he said that civil servants who had been superannuated, and who were able-bodied men, were walking around the streets of Ottawa drawing larger salaries than they could earn if they were working at any ordinary calling. He said : When we come into

power we will change all that. Since the Liberal party have come in they superannuated a great many more civil servants than we did during the same number of years.

I just want to refer to a resolution and I think the Bill passed through the House the other night. The judges previously had been allowed superannuation at two thirds their salaries. Well, Sir, that was not sufficient for these gentlemen. These men had had the best of it all their lives at least since they had been on the bench where many of them were making two or three times as much as they had made before they got on the bench and the other night a Bill was passed by which they are allowed to be superannuated at full pay. It does seem to me that these people have entirely forgotten their principles.

At one o'clock, House took recess.

House resumed at three o'clock.

Topic:   NATIONAL TRANSCONTINENTAL RAILWAY.
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August 21, 1903