July 28, 1903

CON

Frederick Debartzch Monk

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MONK.

They may not be as valuable as the mines in Nova Scotia, but if this is useful legislation it should apply generally throughout Canada. It is an innovation and it makes our law analogous to the criminal law of France, which is so very objectionable and under which the party charged is obliged to exculpate himself. We should hesitate before we Introduce that principle into our law.

Topic:   CRIMINAL CODE, 1892.
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LIB

Fletcher Bath Wade

Liberal

Mr. WADE.

It Is not unique, because we have the same principle applied in the Customs Act.

Topic:   CRIMINAL CODE, 1892.
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CON
LIB

Fletcher Bath Wade

Liberal

Mr. WADE.

It is a penal statute which imposes heavy penalties, the forfeiture of goods, and imprisonment. An officer of tlie Customs Department may walk into the store of any merchant and demand his invoices, and' if he cannot produce them he is summarily fined and his goods forfeited. This is to meet a case where it is an impossibility to convict. In my experience in my profession, which extends over 25 years or more, I have never known but one party to be convicted of stealing amalgam or gold, and yet it is a known fact that from every mining camp there are thousands and thousands of dollars worth of gold stolen every year. I know what the conditions in Nova Scotia are, and that is the reason why I ask that it should apply to Nova Scotia. The government there is directly interested, and if any other province wishes to have these provisions extended to it, I certainly have no objection.

Topic:   CRIMINAL CODE, 1892.
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CON

Frederick Debartzch Monk

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MONK.

The customs laws do not constitute part of our Criminal Code. In the province of Quebec we have a great deal of provincial legislation under which the burden of proof is thrown on the party

charged, but this is introducing in the body of our criminal law a principle which is new.

Topic:   CRIMINAL CODE, 1892.
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LIB

Duncan Cameron Fraser

Liberal

Mr. FRASER.

The same principle applies in our game laws. If a person is found with a salmon or a moose taken out of season he has to prove where he got it.

Topic:   CRIMINAL CODE, 1892.
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CON

Frederick Debartzch Monk

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MONK.

That person would be charged with an infraction of the game laws under a provincial statute and not with a criminal offence.

Topic:   CRIMINAL CODE, 1892.
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LIB

Duncan Cameron Fraser

Liberal

Mr. FRASER.

If he does not pay the fine he goes to jail, so that that effect is exactly the same. The taking of the property of others which has been paid for is worse than having a salmon in your possession out of season.

Topic:   CRIMINAL CODE, 1892.
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The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.

The principle laid down in this amendment is already to some extent in our Criminal Code in respect to taking branded cattle, marked timber or public stores; but the person who has these in his possession has an opportunity of knowing where they came from, because they were branded. This legislation goes further than that, and it appears to he very drastic, because the person who takes the gold has no means at first sight of ascertaining where it came from. I would suggest that we allow this amendment to stand over for consideration, so that I may have an opportunity of looking into one of the Natal Acts, which I believe contains a provision with respect to those who work in the diamond mines. I apprehend that this legislation would be similar to that, and I would like to find out how it operates.

Topic:   CRIMINAL CODE, 1892.
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LIB
CON

Robert Laird Borden (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).

I think that is called the ' Illicit Diamond Vendors Act ' in South Africa. I think my hon. friend might look at the provisions of section 143 (c). I do not know exactly how any one could assist in the commission of the crime set forth there without himself being guilty of the crime. Some of these other sections would seem to require a little redrafting.

Topic:   CRIMINAL CODE, 1892.
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LIB

Fletcher Bath Wade

Liberal

Mr. WADE.

It is possible that there are some slight errors in the copy the hon. gentleman has.

On section 359,

Every one is guilty of .an indictable offence and liable to one year's imprisonment who, in incurring any debt or liability, has obtained credit under false pretenses, ot by means of any other fraud.

Topic:   CRIMINAL CODE, 1892.
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The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.

This is a new departure, and it is intended to extend very much that section which has reference to obtaining goods under false pretenses. Practically we are adopting the English system which provides punishment for those who obtain goods on credit by Mr. MONK.

making false representations which do not amount in reality to a false pretense. This amendment has been suggested by the Crown attorney of the city of Toronto, and as it is rather novel, I would like to have it considered.

Topic:   CRIMINAL CODE, 1892.
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CON

Robert Laird Borden (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).

This is founded on a section of the English criminal law?

Topic:   CRIMINAL CODE, 1892.
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The MINISTER OF JUSTICE.

res, practically. [DOT]

Topic:   CRIMINAL CODE, 1892.
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CON

Robert Laird Borden (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).

A section similar to this was introduced some sessions ago at the request, I think, of the innkeepers of the province of Ontario, who represented that persons obtained credit by pretending to have luggage, and it was afterwards found that the supposed luggage was worthless, and the amount of the liability that had been incurred was not paid. So far as I am concerned, I do not see any particular objection to the provision; but I would like to know if my hon. friend the Minister of Justice has looked into its working in the United Kingdom, whether it has proved satisfactory there, and how far we can profit from their experience.

' The MINISTER OF JUSTICE. The usefulness of the section was illustrated in the case of the King vs. Jones, where a man was indicted for obtaining a meal at a restaurant by fraud. The pretense did not amount to a false pretense within the meaning of this section, because he obtained the meal by cheating. It was really this restaurant case which suggested this amendment, and it will meet the class of cases which the hon. gentleman refers to, of people who go to restaurants and hotels and places of that sort and obtain credit by means of misrepresentations which are not false pretenses, but actual frauds imposed on the persons who give them board or lodging. I think, under the circumstances, the clause may be made useful. At the same time, as the House refused to accept it a few years ago, I thought it well to point out its effect.

Topic:   CRIMINAL CODE, 1892.
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LIB

William Manley German

Liberal

Mr. GERMAN.

It seems to me that the amendment does not go any too far in its attempt to suppress the sort of crime which has just been referred to by the Minister of Justice. There is without doubt a large amount of that sort of crime in existence in the country. Very frequently persons go to hotels and make representations as to their financial position which are absolutely false ; but the hotel proprietor, believing that a respectable man coming to his hotel will not make a statement of that kind without some foundation, gives this person a week's lodging, and it turns out that his statements are absolutely untrue, and the result is that the hotel proprietor is defrauded out of what he is justly entitled to. I do not think the law can be made too severe to punish offences of that sort. I have in my mind an attempt to convict,

under section 359, of the Criminal Code, a person who had obtained goods on what were practically false representations, and who was let off because It was not proven that they were false representations'within the meaning of the code. To my mind the proposed amendment is in the right direction, and Is one that should be placed on the statute-book.

On section 476,

Evei^ one who utters any coin defaced by having stamped thereon any names, words, letters or numerals, or any figures, devices or marks, is guilty of an offence and liable, on summary (Conviction before two justices of the peace, to a penalty not exceeding ten dollars.

Topic:   CRIMINAL CODE, 1892.
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The MINISTER OP JUSTICE.

The new words here are : ' Letters or numerals, or

any figures, devices or. marks.' I may say that there has been a recent issue by a tire company of Toronto of a number of coins having stamped on them the trade mark of the company, and when these coins are returned to the company, a reward is paid in money. In that way they use these coins as a mode of advertising. It is contrary to the intention of the law to allow any coin of the realm to be used for any such purpose, and this is to prevent it.

Topic:   CRIMINAL CODE, 1892.
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CON

Thomas Simpson Sproule

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SPROULE.

Suppose a person stamps a name on a coin, as is sometimes done, would that render' him liable to punishment ?

Topic:   CRIMINAL CODE, 1892.
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The MINISTER OP JUSTICE.

That would deface it.

Topic:   CRIMINAL CODE, 1892.
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July 28, 1903