July 24, 1903

LIB

Peter Macdonald (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Air. DEPUTY SPEAKER.

If I raise a point of order, I am either right or wrong. If I am wrong, I will apologize to the committee, if I am right, then I want to retain control of the committee so that I may guide it in the discussion. The way to ascertain the ruling of the House is not to move that the committee rise, but simply to say : I appeal to the House for their

decision.

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Hon. A@

No, no, that is not the way at all.

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LIB

Peter Macdonald (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Air. DEPUTY SPEAKER.

I beg your pardon, but, however, as that question is not before us, I do not suppose it is necessary to discuss it.

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The AIINISTER OF FINANCE.

It is not an uncommon thing by the general consent of the House to allow the discussion to be broadened. I am sure every member of the House on both sides desires to uphold the Chair, and we are quite satisfied that the chairman is only desirous of maintaining the rules of the House, but it is a general practice by common consent to allow the discussion to be broadened and my own opinion wrould be that the chairman should not keep us too closely to the question. There are two or three resolutions on the Oraer paper dealing with the same class of subjects and I would rather that we had liberty to refer to them, but when we do exercise that liberty we must not hold the chairman responsible for establishing a precedent which will prevent the committee at another time from keeping closely to the rule.

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Hon. A@

I think the hon. gentleman (Air. Maclean) is perfeptly in order. He is discussing the question in reference to binder twine and surely you may say that if you are going to grant a bounty on binder twine it is necessary that a similar concession should be given in regard to other articles. I have been a long time in the House and I have never heard such an interpretation given the rule as that which has been given by the chairman of the committee. Every one in the House, I am sure, desires that the dignity of the House and that the rules of order shall be preserved and especially that the ruling of the chairman shall be accepted when he is correct. But, I beg to differ from the chairman and I wish to stick strictly to the rules. He has no right to appeal to the committee. If his ruling is wrong our duty is to put it in writing, appeal to the House, call in the Speaker and have his opinion upon the

subject and if necessary appeal from the ruling of the Speaker to the House.

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Mr. DEPUTY SPEAICER@

That is exact-lj the position X took. I thought I was right then and I am of the same opinion still. It is the duty of any person who does not believe I am right in my ruling to appeal to the House. I would rather that an hon. member would do that than that I should sit here knowing that I am perfectly right in regard to my ruling and have it disregarded. Almost every time I have ruled in the committee in an effort to keep the committee to their work and to facilitate the despatch of business I have been overruled by one party or the other. The result is that the session is extended week after week and I am kept sitting here without any progress being made in the business. When I give a ruling that in the opinion of the committee is not according to the rule then I would like to have the opinion of the House upon the matter and then I will know whether I am right or not and will not be obliged to submit to the lectures of parties who think I am wrong when as a matter of fact I am perfectly satisfied I am right as I believe I am now. However, the responsibility will be upon the committee.

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LIB

Frank Oliver

Liberal

Mr. OLIVER.

There is a rule which means something or it does not mean anything. If there is a rule that requires hon. members to stick to the subject under discussion then, certainly, that rule should be enforced. If the remarks of my hon. friend from East York (Mr. Maclean) are pertinent to the subject under discussion, then any member of this House can say anything he likes on any subject when any question comes before the House.

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An hon. MEMBER,

No, no.

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LIB
CON
LIB

Frank Oliver

Liberal

Mr. OLIVER.

Certainly he may say anything on any subject. It is quite evident that unless the rules are to be supported, we cannot carry on business. Of course, the chairman cannot dictate to individual members under the privilege of parliament as to what they shall say if these members are supported by other members, but unless members of this House are prepared to support the chairman in rulings that are according to common sense as well as according to the rule of the House we certainly cannot do business with very much credit to the country or to ourselves.

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IND

William Findlay Maclean

Independent Conservative

Mr. MACLEAN.

I do not think that the hon. member for Axoerta (Mr. Oliver) has stated the case fairly. The hon. Minister of Finance came forward here with a proposition to grant bounties. I have not departed from that in the least and I intend to stick most closely to the subject.

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LIB
IND

William Findlay Maclean

Independent Conservative

Mr. MACLEAN.

The question of bounties having been introduced I am discussing the desirability of extending these bounties to other things. I think the hon. Minister of Finance (Hon. Mr. Fielding) and ine right hon. Prime Minister (Rt. Hon. Sir AVilfrid Laurier) agree that I am within the rule. I propose to show why a bounty system should be applied to the ship-building industries of Canada as well as to binder twine and for this purpose I shall read a short communication setting out the arguments in favour of my contention.

Certain of the component parts of a ship not manufactured in Canada-but imported either from Great Britain or the United States are subject to duty. Certain other of the component parts of a ship manufactured in Canada upon which duty is not directly paid but by reason of our tariff the price includes if not the whole at least nearly the same duty as if imported. The coal used in the construction of a ship is subject to duty. Nearly the whole of the material used in the construction of a ship has to be imported either from the United States or Great Britain ; during the .last eighteen mouths almost exclusively from Great Britain, because satisfactory delivery could not be obtained in the United States. The freight and marine insurance on this material amount to considerable. The carpets and furnishings throughout pay duty directly if imported. If not imported indirectly on account of our tariff. The difference in labour is also very considerable. the wages paid in this country being fully fifteen per cent higher than in Great Britain. This difference, however, I am glad to say "would be somewhat lessened, because I believe men in this country perform more work per hour than they do in Great Britain.

In Great Britain, coal and structural material are in close proximity to the shipyards, and therefore are obtained at a minimum of cost. All parts of a ship including its furnishings are obtainable on the lowest basis of cost of production on account of the tariff of Great Brit!lOur chief competitor for the building of new ships is Great Britain, and while Canadian shipbuilding is subject to the several disadvantages above mentioned, amounting to rather more than $4 per gross registered ton, British built ships are permitted to come into Canada entirely free of duty, and are afforded the same privileges in Canada as Canadian built ships. This we do not at all object to, as Canadian built ships are afforded the same freedom in all British ports, but what we desire is that the government consider the advisability of affording such 'a rebate or bounty as will be equal to the disabilities under which we labour, amounting as stated to rather more than $4 per gross registered ton, and thus place the ship-building industry in Canada on a parity with the same industry in Great Britain. This being done I feel sure there will be no more newiy built British ships brought into Canada, but that they will be built in Canada, as they can be obtained at no more cost than if built in Great Britain, and will be more suitable at least for the lake traffic.

In the days of wooden ship-building in Canada it was considered fair to allow a rebate of $1.15 per net registered ton on the highest class of

steel-kneed vessels built in this country. Thus it will be seen that what we are now seeking was recognized years ago to the extent then required.

Then suitable wood for the construction of vessels could be conveniently had in Canada. Now scarcely any wooden ships are being built, but steel ships are taking their place, and instead of being able to obtain the material convenient to the shipyards as was the case when wood was used, the material has to be imported, as already stated.

In addition to this required subsidy of $4 per gross registered ton, it is earnestly desired that foreign built ships be excluded entirely from Canadian coasting privileges, the same as Canadian built ships are excluded from coasting privileges in foreign countries, and that foreign built ships be not admitted to coasting privileges at any rate of duty unless and until Canadian ships are admitted subject to the same rate of duty or license fee as is now charged in Canada.

The gentlemen who drew up that paper made out a case which they presented to the government some time ago which, I think, justified the extension of this principle of bounties to the production of steel ships in Canada. If it were applied to the production of steel ships in Canada we would have large shipyards all over the country. I believe that we have the ore, we have the coal and we have everything necessary for the production of steel ships, but tbe encouragement which applied protection would give them in the shape of a bounty. I think it Is time that the government had the courage of their convictions. They have not the courage of their convictions'; that is the trouble. They believe in protection but they will not live up to it. They have been converted to it and they carry out the principle at times In a spasmodic way, but if they would carry it out in its entirety in these growing times, when Canada is going ahead, when we propose to spend millions on our railways and give some encouragement to the steel ship-building industry we would have immense shipyards in the country and we would be building the ships that would run in connection with the transcontinental roads from, their ports on the upper lakes. We would he following the example of the United States which stands to-day in the first position.

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LIB
IND

William Findlay Maclean

Independent Conservative

Mr. MACLEAN.

No, hut in regard to a great many things and the great danger to this country to-day is that it is 'threatened with an invasion of the products of the American manufacturers who attained to a position to rival Canadian manufacturers and drive them out of their own market by the thorough adoption of the principle of protection. I disagree somewhat with the hon. member for Montreal, St. Mary's (Hon. Mr. Tarte) who said that the system of bounties was not a good form of protection. In a great many cases the bounty Is the highest form of the protective system. It is sometimes the most efficacious

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IND

William Findlay Maclean

Independent Conservative

Mr. MACLEAN.

form of protection and I would like to see it applied in other directions. I not only hope to see the government extend that policy to steel ship-building, to lead, to binder twine and to steel and iron, but I would like to see it extended to a great many other things, and I would like to see the customs employed so as to increase the measure of protection that the manufacturers and workmen of this country ought to have. I have been led, as I said to the committee a short time ago, to make these remarks by reason of what is transpiring in the United States to-day. I almost fear that a financial crash of some kind is impending over there. The manufacturers are making money, the railway companies! are making money, and yet, by reason of something that lias happened there, they see their markets threatened, they have more production than they know what to do with and they are preparing to make a slaughter market of Canada as they did in the old days, but, if this government had the courage of their convictions and if they had the courage to put the protective principle into force they would give us bounties on all these things as well as customs duties so as to give increased protection to Canadian workmen and Canadian manufacturers.

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LIB

William Roche

Liberal

Mr. ROCHE (Halifax).

I have to apologize for appearing to again rise, when a question of order was being decided by chair, but I regret to say that from this part of the House it is impossible to tell what is being said. Hon. gentlemen speaking from the lower benches upon this side of the House have their hacks turned towards us, and it is very rare that we are able to catch one word in ten that is said. We sometimes hear lion, gentlemen on the front row of the other side of the House, as there is a better opportunity of the sound being carried across. Hon. 'gentlemen speaking at the back of the chamber on the other side cannot be heard on this side without very great difficulty. With regard to the question of bounty on hinder twine, I would ask gentlemen opposite what better device could be adopted to enable our manufacturers of hinder twiue in this country to make it here than the one now proposed. The United States and Spain unfortunately went to war: the United States was the victor and they took possession of the territory where the raw material for the manufacture of binder twine grows. If we attempted to prohibit the importation of American binder twine into this country, it is possible that the United States government might retaliate by refusing to allow any of the raw material to he sold to Canada. There is a monopoly in New York at the present time for the purpose of controlling the trade altogether, and I believe that the bounty now proposed is the only possible way of aiding the manufacturers in tliis country. If we attempt'd

to slnit out American twine there might be a reprisal in the shape of a refusal to give us the raw material, and then we would be at the mercy of the American twine manufacturers altogether.

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Mr. CLARICE@

What is the export duty imposed on the raw material by the United States ?

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LIB

July 24, 1903