June 25, 1903


Section agreed to. Bill reported.


SUPPLY-PURCHASE OF CATTLE FOR SOUTH AFRICA.


The MINISTER OF FINANCE (Hon W. S. Fielding) moved that the House go into Committee of Supply.


LIB
CON

Rufus Henry Pope

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. R. II. POPE (Compton).

This afternoon the leader of the opposition called the attention of the government to the purchase by the British authorities of a large number of cattle in the United States for the restocking of Boer farms in South Africa. The Minister of Agriculture replied that a certain amount of correspondence had taken place between this government and Lord Strathcona and that certain representations had been made. We, upon this side of the House, and many people outside of the House, feel that this is so important a matter that it should have received more attention from the government, and to emphasize that fact I' shall conclude with a motion. Now, Sir, we have heard a great deal on both sides of the water about preferential tariffs, and certain other things that will bring the colonies and the mother country more closely together. We believe there should be something more than sympathy, something more than a deep, loyal, patriotic feeling on the part of the colonies for the motherland, and on the part of the motherland for the colonies. I know of no better way to emphasize that desire than by the government of England, when it has an opportunity of doing business with the outside world, making an effort at least to do business with British colonies rather than with foreign nations. We have only one way of presenting our case before the British government or the British parliament, and that is through the government of our own country. After the splendid position Canada obtained in the British mind, after the close of the war in South Africa, as a result of the efforts Canada made on that occasion to emphasize her desire to maintain the British empire in its integrity, we cannot but feel that if the hon. Minister of Agriculture and the government to which he belongs had put forth a proper effort we should have had some practical results, such as the purchase of these animals in Canada instead of in the country to the south of us. The hon. gentleman told us this afternoon that he had not even heard of this transaction. We remember a year or two ago when another important matter, the purchase of meat supplies for the British army, was before us, the hon. Minister of Agriculture confessed in this House that he had not heard of it. Well, we know that the hon. minister is not deaf, that it is possible for him to hear; we know that he is not illiterate, that he reads; we know that he is entrusted with an important department of the government; and yet it is strange that within gunshot of where we are now sitting, Major Maude, the agent of the British government in this matter, was living day in and day out; and the Minister of Agriculture and the goveriflnent (o which he belongs know nothing whatever of the purchase of this stock. I do not deny it. I am bound to accept the words of tile lion, gentleman, and I do accept them to the full-

est extent; but it is surprising to say the least. We find that this steamer, the ' At-lanteau,' is at Montreal, loading 2,000 tons of hay, and that Mr. Kirtaw, of New York, their representative in the United States, is superintending the shipment. Can it he possible that this has not been known to the lion. Minister of Agriculture ? We all remember what great credit was claimed for the Minister of Agriculture and his colleagues when they changed the regulations between this country and the United States, and claimed that they had thereby opened up a market for our stock. We remember how the flag again went up when they .entered into negotiations with regard to the importation of diseased cattle, and how we were told that the prompt action of the Minister of Agriculture had saved this country. If those were matters of importance, surely au opportunity like this, which was heralded throughout this country months ago, should have reasonably called for a much greater effort than the hon. gentleman seems to have put forth. There could not have been a more opportune time than this very year, when every section of the country from which the hon. gentleman conies has been suffering from a severe drought. We know that our hay crop is not going to be more than 50 per cent of what it ought to be, and cattle are very cheap-just the kind that are best adapted for South Africa-better than the cattle of Texas or other southern states, where the cattle are poorly bred. There are thousands of cattle in our country seeking a market, and surely the lion. Minister of Agriculture and his colleagues could have afforded sufficient time to have urged on the gentleman who represents Great Britain in this matter, Major Maude, the value of our cattle, and thus have secured some relief for the people who have been suffering in the eastern part of ,tlie country. The hon. gentleman says he has not heard that there has been any exportation of cattle from this country. I think that under these circumstances we are justified in finding fault with the hon. gentleman and the government for neglect. True, he has been basking in the sunny climate of Japan, enjoying himself for weeks and weeks; but that was his desire. He went there, I presume, with the idea of doing good to Canada. But I expect that when the time arrives, it will turn out to be like his trip to England, where he was present when the negotiations were going on for the sale of army meat, and yet had not heard anything about it. So, when we come to find that the United States or some other country is getting the advantage of us in Japan, I suppose we shall find that the hon. gentleman -has not heard of it, just as on this occasion he has not heard of the thousands of head of cattle tljjit are being exported to South Africa to the great advantage of the people to the south of us.

It is not my intention to speak longer on this matter; I do not think it is necessary. I have drawn the attention of this House to the fact that the government have taken very little means to urge on the British authorities the great advantage it would be to this country to provide cattle for shipment to South Africa, and to the confession which the hon. minister made this afternoon, that he did not know anything about this matter, though on one occasion he had taken sufficient interest in it to communicate with Lord Stratlicona. Perhaps lie has had one communication, or he may have had a dozen, with Lord Strathcona; but he did not follow the matter up. It would have been more important, if the hon. minister had heard anything about it, to have gone to England himself rather than to Japan.

No doubt the hon. gentleman was an attractive personality when in Japan, but we would have been inclined to look with indulgence on his holiday there if he had done something for Canada. Had he obtained for the province of Quebec, and particularly the eastern section of that province, the material advantage which might have been obtained had proper efforts been made to secure for us the restocking of the Boer farms, we would not have concerned ourselves about that hon. gentleman's oriental experiences ; but I trust that now that I have brought this matter to the attention of the House in the shape of an amendment to Supply, the government will lose no delay in communicating with Major Maud, who represents the imperial authorities in this country, and in taking every possible step to secure to our country the supplying of the cattle required. In the newspaper article describing this matter, .it was said that these cattle are selected very carefully, that many are called but few qre chosen. I have no doubt, from what I know of the cattle of Mexico and the south, that very few will be chosen. I do not know of any part of the world where you will get a more undesirable breed of cattle for the foundation of a dairy stock than in Mexico, Texas and the southern part of this continent. They have no good dairy stock. Their cattle are ill-bred animals, more or less filled with disease. But in this country we have just the quality required. The increase in the business of dairying has caused a wonderful increase in the breeding of dairy cattle so that our farmers in the eastern provinces have a large amount of dairy cattle on hand, which they cannot send out to their ranches in the west where they require cattle for the beef market, and which would be admirably suited for restocking the farms in South Africa, and could be had at very moderate prices.

I beg therefore to move that all the words after ' That ' be struck out, and the following substituted :

This House regrets that the government have not taken more active measures for the purpose of protecting the interests of Canadian farmers and cattle dealers in connection with the purchase by the imperial government of cattle required for restocking the farmers in South Africa.

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?

The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE (Hon. Sydney Fisher).

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CON

Rufus Henry Pope

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. POPE.

plete and thorough justification of the position of the government and a lack of justification on the part of the hon. gentleman in moving this resolution on a question on which he knows nothing and concerning which he denies the government the opportunity of stating the facts. Under these circumstances I must ask the House to vote down the resolution.

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CON

David Henderson

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. D. HENDERSON (Ilalton).

I only intend to refer for a few minutes to the matter which has been brought to the attention . of the House by my hon. friend from Com-toil- (Mr. Pope). I do not think it requires many words to show that the government has been derelict in its duty in not making a greater effort to secure for the stock raisers of this country that market so recently opened up. We have been told by the lion. Minister of Agriculture that the government sent remonstrances to England through Lord Strathcona. Does the hon. gentleman mean to say that these remonstrances had so little weight that at present we find the agents of the British government in the United States buying cattle fpr export to South Africa, instead of meeting the wishes of the Canadian government which has done so much for Great Britain in the way of preference. Does he mean to tell us that after all these remonstrances, made, as he has told us, through the proper channel, the British government has quitely ignored them. Surely the influence of this government is much less indeed than any one would have expected.

The Minister of Agriculture and his colleagues have, time and again, boasted of what the government have done in the way of searching out new markets for the people of this country. I must confess that what we find now reported in the press- and there is every reason to believe it is absolutely correct-is not at all in keeping with the representations made by the government when they told the people how much interested they were in providing new markets for them, told them of their efforts and of the results those efforts would bring, above what had been secured by those who preceded them in the government of the Dominion. Now, one word with reference to the article itself and the representations it has made. We are told that the cattle are of a high class. Surely, the hon. gentleman will not contend for a moment that the people of the United States can furnish a higher class of cattle than the Dominion of Canada can. I have always understood that the people of the United States come to Canada to get their high-class cattle, and I believe there is a very large trade carried on by Canada in high-class cattle to be sent to the United States. Yet we find that the people of Great Britain are so ill-informed on this question that when they wish to secure high-class cattle for South Africa, Instead

of coming to Canada, where the Americans buy their best stock, they go to the United States whose people are purchasers from Canada. We are told that good prices are being paid. That is just the kind of market the Canadians wanted for their cattle, a market where good prices are paid. Yet, the government have allowed this market to slip out of their hands, I will not say without remonstrance, but without effectual remonstrance. Apparently, they have not been listened to. What is the matter witli Great Britain that, after having received the privilege of our market under a 33J per cent preference, they have nothing to give irs in return of rather they treat us with contempt "! We are told that the southern cattle dealers are reaping a harvest. That is very nice indeed. We ought to be reaping a harvest. The interest of the British government in these cattle purchases are being looked after by whom ? Not by Americans, but by a paid official of this government, a man who is paid his salary by the people of this country. He is actually engaged to-day in assisting the' British government to secure cattle in the United States to send to South Africa, and he is doing that whilst he is receiving his salary out of the coffers of the Dominion of Canada. I say we do not want any such officials. We ought to have men more loyal to the Dominion of Canada than to engage in any such transaction. I do not think it speaks well for Major Maude to be mixed up in this transaction in this way. I think that when he was asked by the British government to take charge of the purchase of cattle in the United States for South Africa, he should have said that, being an officer of the Dominion of Canada he thought it his duty to uphold the interest of the people of Canada rather than those of the people of tiie United States. I do not desire to say more. I think this is a lesson to us to be careful in the future what preferences we give to the mother country if, when an opportunity comes for an advantage to be afforded the people of Canada, we are to be treated in this manner which I might almost characterize as contemptuous.

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CON

Seymour Eugene Gourley

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SEYMOUR E. GOURLEY (Colchester).

Mr. Speaker, I think that Canada little deserves this humiliation-for I regard it, and the people of Canada will regard it, as nothing less than a humiliation. This great colony of Canada, if reports be true, has been feted in England for three or four years past on great public occasions. Yet, when there is any business that can be turned in the direction of Canada, unfortunately for us, there seems to be such incompetence either on this side of the Atlantic or on the other side, that the interests of Canada are sacrificed on every occasion. The remarks of the Minister of Agriculture, I think, shows the reason for the whole misunderstanding. Canada, he

says, was the best field in which to buy that stock. He says that the Minister of Agriculture-with whom I have no quarrel up to the present time-said that Canada was the best field. That was the representation he made to the British government. Is that any representation to make to the stupid and incompetent people in the offices in England ? I understood that we were living the strenuous life on this continent, especially in our politics.

If the Minister of Agriculture had led the strenuous life when he was dealing with this government at home, he would not have used only that gentle language, which, to my mind, invited the refusal that the British government returned to his request. He should know that our great trouble in dealing with the British government for the last seventy or eighty years has been that they have neglected every interest of Canada-they have neglected every colonial interest-until within the last five or ten years. The colonial offices in England and all the high offices there are filled with men who cared nothing about the colony until a few years ago, and are loath to take up the new doctrine of colonial ascendency. That being the case, the lion. Minister of Agriculture, who has visited England, ought to have known of this carelessness on the part of the government service of England with regard to the colonies-barring Mr. Joseph Chamberlain and a few of the great imperial-minded men who have recently come forward in the public life of that country. Fifty years ago, when the history of Canada could have been changed, when the greatness of Canada could have been made to run in parallel lines with the greatness of the United States, we were neglected by the government of England, and we were neglected by the government of Canada-because I am persuaded that if the govern-menj of Canada had led the people here to more strenuous maintenance of their position, if they had led the people to be more dignified in their political life and to demand recognition from England of the status of this great colony, we should not have been in the position we are in to-day. And now when we hear so much about the imperial feeling of England all this should be changed. I am an imperialist ; I honour the traditions of the empire, and I can stand here on this occasion and offer the criticism I offer free from any charge of seeking to detract in any way from the greatness of the empire. I therefore, am in a position to charge against the Minister of Agriculture and the cabinet the absolute neglect of the public interest of this great country. Why did you not talk business to these tu-penny-ha'penny fellows over there ? After sending them a mild and polite notice that you desired them to look after the interests of Canada, why did you not set the cable to work to tell them that Canada was not in a position to be neglected, that we

hold the key to the British empire ? I can usderstand how one of these officials in England felt when the Minister of Agriculture wrote that-I was going to say disgracefully, cowardly, message, and it was a cowardly message to send to these people in England. It was all right enough to begin with ; there is nothing like opening negotiations with politeness. But when their answer was received the wires under the ocean should have been kept hot with indignant messages from the government of Canada, to let the people over there know that the day was past when a few little civil servants in England could neglect the interest of this great country.

The government of this country should be told that the hour is past, this government should tell the government of England that the hour is past, when, if Canada speaks and requests the attention of the government of England to our great interests, a few petty officials in Downing street can turn a deaf ear to our request. Why, Sir, I can pick out mechanics in the streets of Ottawa who would make more intelligent cabinet ministers than those who now run the English government. Yes, Sir, we must understand in this country that we occupy a much superior position to the public men in England. The members of this House of Commons are infinitely more intelligent on the general affairs of the empire than the aggregation composing the House of Commons in England ; and the cabinet of Canada ought to occupy a prouder position than the imperial cabinet, because we have a wider outlook upon the affairs of the empire. Before a man could become a cabinet minister or a member of the English House of Commons, he should be brought to Canada and kept here for five years. He is not lit to administer the affairs of the empire until he has breathed the atmosphere of this great colony, until he has breathed the spirit of Liberalism, the high and dauntless courage Jhat every man breathes who lives in this splendid country.

Now, Mr. Chairman, I am persuaded that the government of this country is to blame for the whole thing. Because, being the government, and knowing the imperial sentiment that prevails, why did they not say to the government of England : You are

asking us to give you battleships, you are asking us to help maintain your lleets, and you must do your duty by us? I say that public opinion in this country is ripe for that,

I am ripe for that, because I do not wish to be a part of the empire unless I hear my proportion of its responsibilities ; and when I bear my proportion of its responsibilities I want to be able to charge any official over there, whether he stands on the steps of the throne, or sits in the House of Commons, I want to talk to him from the same level and the same platform, and I can only do that when I pay my share of the cost of the empire. Now, Sir, I want to

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CON

Seymour Eugene Gourley

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. GOURLEY.

say to this government, I want to say to these stupid little jackasses in London, that the colonial empire could have been dominant over the whole earth, the colonial empire could have been greater than a 11 the nations of the earth, if these little fellows in England had been big enough to look over the whole world, if they had had among them ten or fifteen men like Joseph Chamberlain fifteen years ago. What would have been the position of South Africa, of Canada to-day ? Why, we would have filled the eyes of the world. But because Joseph Chamberlain cannot infuse a little of his own spirit into the rest of the cabinet of England, and into the civil service of that country, we occupy the humiliating position that we do to-day. When this government found that men so small were running the government in England, why did they not instruct Lord Strathcona to send an ultimatum to the English government telling them that if they want us in Canada to be loyal, to be true to the empire, if they want us to give them battleships, and to contribute to the permanency and glory of the empire, they must stand up and look after the rights of Canada, instead of looking after the rights of the Yankees across the way. This is the humiliation to the people of Canada beyond all compare, that Englishmen should think that there is only one country on this continent, and that is the United States, that Canada is an insignificant country, and that the United States contains and controls all the agricultural resources of this continent. That is a monstrous thing. Why, even the people of the United States themselves, I am told, have erected a line against the Texas fever. Why, the people of the United States will not allow these little scrub cattle from Texas to come beyond a certain line, they will not allow them to come up to Massachusetts or to Illinois, they have erected a line beyond which the Texas steers cannot come. They would have to be shipped out of Galveston if they were brought up north. Yet the British government will be. permitted to go into that pest-ridden and fever-ridden country and buy their cattle, to the insult of this country.

I charge upon the Minister of Agriculture an absolute lack of his duty. Why did he not summon parliament, if necessary, at once ? When he saw this insult was perpetrated upon us, why was not the Governor General interviewed and requested to inform the English government that the time had passed when they could play this game upon Canada any longer ?

Now, I am speaking for imperial unity, and I believe imperial unity could be brought about by telling English statesmen that they have got to control the public men of that country and their civil servants, and not permit them to insult the Canadian government. I am surprised that the Minister of Finance should permit himself to be so insulted. That is not the way

of the true Nova Scotian, to permit himself to be insulted by a lot of those little fellows over in England. Why did not the cabinet meet and telegraph a protest : We are the government of Canada, and we don't propose that Major Maude, or any other officer is going to insult this government. It is a direct attack upon the dignity of the cabinet of Canada. I am surprised that the Minister of Finance did not at once take some means of resenting the insult put upon them by the British government, by informing the British government that if they wanted imperial feeling to exist in Canada, they must treat this country with respect. We are not to be subjected to eternal insult. The colonies have been subjected to insult for the last fifty years, and still we have been loyal and faithful to the empire's interests. But the time has gone by when we will stand it any longer. Since I have been in this parliament, I have endeavoured to awaken Canadian pride. Surely we who are descendants of an undaunted race, a race who dared all the dangers of a new country, surely that dauntless French race with which we are combined, surely these two races, we who are the greatest representatives of the human race, ought not in Canada, after enduring the toils we have endured to make Canada great, to permit any longer the affairs of this country to be run by those little men over in England. True, they do not represent the English people, because, as a rule, the cabinet of England, for the last fifty years has represented no body but the little tu'penny ha'penny men who happen to get into the cabinet by some chance or accident. Recollect, I always separate the English people from the English public men. The public men of England for the past sixty years have never truly represented the feeling of the English people. The people were always splendid and strong, but their cabinet ministers, like Gladstone and Salisbury, have permitted that Empire to be insulted by evefy Yankee, and Frenchman, and German whenever they wished, until the time came when it was dangerous for a man that had spirit to pick up his paper in the morning for fear he might read that some fresh insult had been heaped upon the British empire, and there was nobody to protest. Now, Mr. Chairman, I think the Minister of Agriculture ought to resign at once. He ought to resign on two grounds, first, to preserve his own self-respect, and as a protest against the insult that has been put upon this country by the English government; and secondly, in deference to the wishes of the people of Canada, who desire to see a stronger and more masterful minister in that de-jiartment to deal with our public affairs.

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CON

Thomas Simpson Sproule

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. T. S. SPROULE (East Grey).

I am sure that the 645,000 farmers of Canada will be surprised to learn what is taking 172

place in and around Ottawa, when they find that the Minister of Agriculture is wholly unaware of a* matter in which they are so vitally interested. He seems to be a true Rip Van Winkle. Last year we had a similar question of great interest to the farmers of the west, in the beef contract. These contracts would have been most valuable for the farmers of the west and the farmers of Canada generally. He knew nothing about it. The business had been carried on in England. We were vitally interested in it, we might have taken advantage of it but we did not because the hon. Minister of Agriculture was practically asleep. Another very interesting item of information comes to our knowledge that practically one of the officials from Ottawa is engaged in a foreign country buying large numbers of cattle to restock the farms of South Africa when these cattle might as well have been purchased in Canada if proper representations had been made to the mother country and backed up by an efficient government. Where was our Minister of Agriculture ? He was away in China . and Japan hunting up markets and allowing the market right at home to slip away from him without any effort to secure it for the farmers of this country. He was away studying the Chinese. He can tell us all about the Geisha girls but he cannot tell us about the cattle purchased in the United States to be sent to South Africa. He is a valuable farmer for the people of Canada. Now, he comes forward and expresses surprise that this motion should be sprung upon the House. He even expressed surprise that such a motion should be moved. Will this not be a matter of great surprise to the farmers of Canada, and will they not regret that the government knowing of what is taking place around them in what the farmers of Canada are so vitally interested ? It certainly will be a matter of great surprise. He had never seen, ha said, a more unreasonable proposition submitted to this House than to say that we regretted what had occurred. Does he not regret it, and will the farmers of Canada not regret it, that stronger representations, had not been made, because we have known it to be a fact that if proper representations were made to the imperial government in regard to anything in which Canada was vitally interested, where they could give assistance to Canada, if these representations were properly backed up, they have endeavoured to meet our views as far as possible ? IVe have many instances of this and on no occasion have our efforts failed where such representations have been made as might have been made in this case. It is said that Canada was the very best field for the purchase of this kind of stock. I have no doubt of that whatever. England only requires to know that. I think that England treats Canada in a much more friendly way than

she treats any foreign country, and she dees this because Canada is her best colony. What is taking place in England from month to month is the best evidence of it. It is brought to our notice in a thousand different ways ; therefore, we are justified in coming to the conclusion that if there had been proper information in England, if proper representation had been made, and if they had been intelligently made and backed up by such force as the government could and should command, there is no doubt but that regard would have been paid to them, that there would have been some evidence of it to-day, and that farmers of Canada would have been benefiting by it at the present time. What do we want ? We want better markets. What was the lion. Minister of Agriculture doing in China and Japan for three or four months ? He was trying to get better markets and yet a market right at home is allowed to go and no attention is paid to it, though it is the best market in the world by our most important products and the most desirable market for the largest class of people in our country. Yet the government know nothing about it, pay no attention to it, but utterly disregard it. I have only to say that I am quite sure that this is another evidence that will bring it home to the farmers of Canada what an incompetent Minister of Agriculture they have. He is the steward of the people of Canada. How has he managed that stewardship ? Has he managed it in the interest of the farmers ? It must be evident to all that he is looking after his own interests rather than the interests of the farmers. He is travelling all over the country every year, he can tell us what has taken place in every part of the world, but he knows nothiDg of what is taking place right around him in Ottawa, and as regards the farmers of Canada, he knows very little. He is asleep when it comes to looking after the interests of Canada, but he seems to be well informed as to what is taking place in other parts of the world. I am satisfied that the farmers will regret and will be inclined to censure the hon. Minister of Agriculture aqd the government for their failure to make proper representations on this subject, and I do not think we are going too far to-night when we express the great regret that we feel that stronger representations have not been made, and which, if made, would undoubtedly have resulted in securing to the farmers of Canada an important market that has been enjoyed by the people of the United States on account of the carelessness, or indifference, or want of knowledge of the hon. Minister of Agriculture and the government.

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LIB

Hance James Logan

Liberal

Mr. H. J. LOGAN (Cumberland).

Mr. Speaker, il the resolution had read that this House regrets that the imperial government has seen fit to purchase cattle in the United States of America, I think we would have Mr. SPROULE.

had a unanimous expression of opinion by this parliament which might have had some effect upon the imperial government or upon the officials in the home office who have control of the purchase of these cattle. How has this motion been brought up ? It is an evidence of absolute partyism run wild. This afternoon the hon. leader of the opposition (Mr. Borden, Halifax) asked a question across the floor of the House in reference to the report dealing with the purchase of American cattle and the reply which was given to him by the hon. Minister of Agriculture (Hon. Mr. Fisher) was that remonstrances had been sent to England, to our representative there, Lord Strathcona, asking him to protest against the buying of cattle in the United States for the restocking of Boer farms. The hon. minister further said that these remonstrances had been repeated, and yet, to-night, without giving any notice of the motion to be moved, the hon. member for Compton (Mr. Pope) brings this resolution in, regretting the fact that the Canadian government did not make more strenuous efforts to prevent the imperial government from buying American cattle. What does he, or the hon. member for East Grey (Mr. Sproule), know as to what remonstrances have been made by this government to the imperial government ? They have not asked for the papers to be brought down. They have given no notice of their intention to bring this motion before parliament so that the hon. minister might bring to the House the remonstrances he sent to England, or the letters he sent to Lord Strathcona. They have given him no oppbrtunity to place these letters before the House, so that we are absolutely in the dark as to what these letters contain. Strong language has been recommended to be used to the imperial authorities. How do wre know what language has been used to the imperial authorities when we have not the letters before us which were sent by the hon. Minister of Agriculture ? The hon. member for Colchester (Mr. Gourley) has given us an oration upon the littleness of the English ministers and officials. I regret that an hon. gentleman has seen fit to make these remarks here to-night. If they were contained in the columns of the New York ' Sun ' a greater insult could not have been offered to the British nation than that which has been offered to it by a member in the House of Commons of Canada. Has it come to this that the representative of the old Tory party, the party that always thought it contained all the loyalty that could exist in Canada, is going to stand up in his place in parliament and say : Why

did you not send them an ultimatum ? Why did you not say that if you want us to be loyai, support us ? The hon. gentleman says that if you want us to be loyal, buy our cattle. It is absolutely cattle loyalty the hon. gentleman wants. I contend, however much

we may regret that the British government has not bought our cattle, that this government has done everything that is possible and everything that any selfrespecting government could do in regard to the matter. This government did not cringe and beg that something should be given to us, but has asked in a manly and straightforward way that these cattle should be bought in Canada. What are the facts ? I am Informed, that at the conclusion of the Boer conference, when it was decided to supply a certain amount of money for the restocking of the Boer farms, the Minister of Agriculture of Canada communicated immediately with Lord Strathcona, the representative of Canada in England, and requested that an effort should be made to induce the British government to buy these cattle in Canada.

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The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.

Hear, hear.

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LIB

Hance James Logan

Liberal

Mr. LOGAN.

What more could the Minister of Agriculture have done at that time? Do these gentlemen opposite expect that he should have gone to England and held a gun at the head of the officials of the British government, and demanded that they should buy Canadian cattle? And what happened? *When it afterwards came to the knowledge of the Minister of Agriculture that the British government were buying these cattle in the United States of America, he immediately sent a remonstrance to Lord Strathcona. What more could any Minister of Agriculture have done ? There is no doubt that it is regrettable that the British government should have seen fit to buy these cattle in the United States. It is to be regretted that at a time when we were sending our sons to shed their blood on the veldts of South Africa, and when we were paying heavy contributions towards the Boer war ; at a time when the people of the United States were singing long live Kruger, and were praying for the success of the Boers, when almost every newspaper in the United States was coming out in yellow journalism fashion condemning England, it is to be regretted that at such a time the British government were buying horses in the United States for the use of the British army. But, Sir, we must go about this matter in a dignified manner. This government could not in self respect have done more than was done by the Minister of Agriculture in the premises. I can only regret that the motion of the hon. gentleman (Mr. Pope), instead of being one of censure on the Minister of Agriculture and the government of Canada, is not a motion of regret that the British government did not see fit to buy these cattle in this portion of the British Empire, rather than in the United States.

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CON

Ernest D'Israeli Smith

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. E. D. SMITH (Wentworth).

We have

many things to complain of with regard to

172}

this matter. We have to regret that although the Minister of Agriculture sent a remonstrance to the British government, he did not recognize it as his duty to follow that remonstrance up, aud as the member for Colchester has said, make the cables hot with messages to the British government endeavouring to induce them to buy these cattle in this country. This year aud last year the government have asked for thousands of dollars to extend our markets in foreign countries, but surely they should have means at their hand to be informed of what the British government is doing in the way of purchasing supplies, and to bring these purchases to Canada. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Logan) has taxed the British government with being wrong, but the British government did exactly what any wise man would do ; the British government pursued the policy which has been theirs for the last fifty years, of buying in the cheapest market. And, Sir, if the policy of the Conservative party had been adopted when they advocated a mutual preference, these cattle would have been bought in Canada and not in the United States. The Conservative party has maintained that the only sensible preference is a preference under which you get something for what you give, and if this government had adopted such a preference the English government would be buying from us to-day. There is no sentiment or sympathy in trade. The English people will buy in the best market. It is the boast of this government that as a result of the preference, England has bought more from us than she would otherwise have done, but In this very case, where the British government itself was the purchaser, it passed our doors and bought in a foreign market. Let this government negotiate for a mutual preference which will apply not only to the British Isles, but to the British colonies ; such a preference as has been advocated by the Conservative party, and then we will not have to complain of this kind of thing happening in the future. That is the only way to make trade mutually advantageous.

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CON

Andrew Broder

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. A. BRODER (Dundas).

The admission of the Minister of Agriculture that he was not taken by surprise as to the intention of the British government to buy these cattle in the United States, ought to have given him sufficient time to make out a better case than he seems to have made with the authorities in England in connection with this matter. He ought to bring down to the House the replies which he received to the remonstrances which he made to the British government, so that we may know the reason for purchasing these cattle in the United States. We must remember, Sir, that the British government has had some experience of doing business with the hon. gentleman's department in buying hay and oats, and perhaps that may be a reason why

they did not care to buy cattle through his department.

Some lion. MEMBERS. Hear, hear.

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CON

Andrew Broder

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BRODER.

The hon. gentleman from Cumberland (Mr. Logan) is very willing to vote for a motion of censure on the British governmeut, but he is very loath to censure those who are directly responsible for neglecting Canadian interests. We have a right to assume that if the Minister of Agriculture had made proper remonstrances to the British government, they would have given heed to them. But we cannot forget that the premier himself told the people of England that he did not want any return for the preference, and that the Minister of Agriculture, following in his leader's example, told the people the same thing when he was in England. Even a prominent official of this government who figured in political circles-in Liberal party circles some years ago in this country-he told an English chamber of commerce that the Canadian government did not want anything in return for the preference they gave to England. When you tell the English people, on one hand that you do not want anything, and then go back and tell them that you do, they do not know whether to believe you in the first instance or in the second. The position taken by the Prime Minister and by his Minister of Agriculture with regard to preference has placed them in a very sorry plight when they go to demand anything from the British government. Our hon. friend from Cumberland (Mr. Logan) says he would vote for a resolution censuring the English government. He would not give them any notice, though he, wants notice given to this government. They might have some reasonable explanation to give why they did not buy your cattle. The hon. gentleman's loyalty is not very deep ; it is hardly lip loyalty.

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LIB
CON

Andrew Broder

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BRODER.

It is on four feet, however, and would leave the country at any hour. The hon. gentleman would censure the British government without any notice, but he would not touch a hair on the head of the hon. Minister of Agriculture. I say there is one of two reasons why the British government have not bought our cattle: either they do not want to do business with the government of this country after the experience they have had, or else our cattle are not the cattle they want. This House has a right to know what reason the British government have given the authorities of this country why they do not want to buy our cattle. The English governmeut over a year ago gave notice in the House of Commons, not only to this country, but to the world, that they intended to restock the farms in South Africa. There is no question that time enough was given to the

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June 25, 1903