June 15, 1903

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The MINISTER OF FINANCE.

I do not think, this is a matter which calls for a more definite decision of policy than has Hon. Mr. FIELDING.

already been laid down. I think the matter will settle itself commercially. 1 do not think there is any danger of a company establishing another dock where there is one in a locality which is able to do the business.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   DRY DOCKS CONSTRUCTION-GOVERNMENT AID.
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CON

William Humphrey Bennett

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BENNETT.

I understand the hon. minister to say-of course ' Hansard ' will show whether he made the statement or not-that the government will not entertain any proposals for the assistance of a new dry-dock until it has been shown that the established dry-dock, in a certain locality and assisted by the government, has been unable to cope with the business. After that it would be quite in order on the eve of a general election to appeal to Midland, Owen Sound and other towns with the promise that a government supporter's return will result in the establishment of a dry-dock, and I am quite confident that I will be able to show that the hon. Minister of Finance made the statement that this would be one of the conditions under which such a proposition would be entertained.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   DRY DOCKS CONSTRUCTION-GOVERNMENT AID.
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The MINISTER OF FINANCE.

If my hon. friend can get so much comfort out of my remarks as that, I would be sorry to deny them, but I think he will find that they will not bear the interpretation that he puts upon them.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   DRY DOCKS CONSTRUCTION-GOVERNMENT AID.
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CON

Edward Frederick Clarke

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CLARKE.

I would like to ask the hon. Minister of Finance whether the government will have any say as to the charges which shall be made for the use of this dry-dock ?

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   DRY DOCKS CONSTRUCTION-GOVERNMENT AID.
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The MINISTER OF FINANCE.

Yes, it is proposed that the owners of the dock must charge according to a tariff which has been submitted to the government, because, when they are receiving this large amount of public aid we think they shall establish fair and reasonable rates.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   DRY DOCKS CONSTRUCTION-GOVERNMENT AID.
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CON

Robert Laird Borden (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).

Has the government any report as to the probable cost of this werk ?

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   DRY DOCKS CONSTRUCTION-GOVERNMENT AID.
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The MINISTER OF FINANCE.

I have not heard anything on the subject since the last discussion took place. The hon. Minister of Public Works (Hon. Mr. Sutherland) is not in his place and I do not know whether he has anything on the subject or not. However, we will be able to ascertain later.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   DRY DOCKS CONSTRUCTION-GOVERNMENT AID.
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CON

John Graham Haggart

Conservative (1867-1942)

Hon. Mr. HAGGART.

What is the meaning of the words ' on the cost of the work ? ' Surely it does not refer to repairs. The old dock is entering into the construction of this dock at Collingwood. The section says :

The Governor in Council may authorize the payment .... of a subsidy not exceeding three per cent per annum on the cost of the work.

Then, there is a qualifying clause at the end which says :

4:631

The cost on which it shall be calculated shall not be greater than the value of the work as estimated by the said minister.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   DRY DOCKS CONSTRUCTION-GOVERNMENT AID.
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The MINISTER OF FINANCE.

These are not new words. These are words which have been in the Act for twenty years. The purpose I have no doubt is that while we may pay interest on the cost, we shall not pay a subsidy on an extravagant cost. They must submit an estimate and they must satisfy the minister that the cost is the bona fide cost, so that we shall only pay a subsidy in return for a bona fide expenditure.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   DRY DOCKS CONSTRUCTION-GOVERNMENT AID.
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CON

Robert Laird Borden (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).

While these words might have a certain interpretation if an absolutely new dock was being constructed the hon. Minister of Finance will, of course, recollect that in the resolution as passed and in this Bill as proposed the words include the completion of a dry-dock now in course of construction. In this dock at Collingwood, for example, a portion of a former dock constitutes an important part of the new dock. If you were building a completely new dock you could say what is to be the actual cost of the work. But, suppose you introduce into the question a portion of an old dock partly completed, such as there is at Collingwood, and which has not been built under the supervision of the Department of Public Works, a difficulty would be introduced, which you would have to consider.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   DRY DOCKS CONSTRUCTION-GOVERNMENT AID.
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CON

Edward Arthur Lancaster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. LANCASTER.

A work having been completed might be useless for want of. repairs, and it might be said that the work is worth more because of the impairs. It is a question whether you would pay on the total value as it was then or merely on the cost of putting it into shape.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   DRY DOCKS CONSTRUCTION-GOVERNMENT AID.
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The POSTMASTER GENERAL (Hon. Sir William Mulock).

I do not quite follow the hon. gentleman's argument, but I hardly think the word ' new ' would properly express it because this paragraph is apparently contemplating new work and it would be a redundancy to put in the word ' new.' I think it would be safer to say that this -would only be calculated on the alluding to what you think might be the expenditure on an existing work.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   DRY DOCKS CONSTRUCTION-GOVERNMENT AID.
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CON

Robert Laird Borden (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).

Suppose you have a dry-dock that might be valued" by the owners at $50,000 and you want to build a dock that will cost when completed $300.-000-a new company pays $50,000 for the old dock although they might not get value for more than $15,000. If you insert the word ' new ' it would prevent them getting any return on the money they had to pay for the old dock, and which would be an expenditure on their part just as much as if it were for a new work. I think we should pause before inserting that word.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   DRY DOCKS CONSTRUCTION-GOVERNMENT AID.
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The MINISTER OF FINANCE.

There is also the danger that the cost of the land which might be a very considerable item could not be taken into account if you inserted that word. I can assure my hon. friends that there is no intention of subsidizing any old broken down enterprise.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   DRY DOCKS CONSTRUCTION-GOVERNMENT AID.
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CON

John Graham Haggart

Conservative (1867-1942)

Hon. Mr. IIAGGART.

The dry-dock at Collingwood was assisted by the town to the extent of $50,000 and the town got possession of it and made an absolute present of it to this company. In such a case assistance should be given only to the new work.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   DRY DOCKS CONSTRUCTION-GOVERNMENT AID.
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The MINISTER OF FINANCE.

If the corporation of a town gave them some aid, that would certainly enter into the valuation for which they would receive a subsidy, but they could not earn a tariff of tolls on it. We have provided that they must make returns on all aids received from corporations and they cannot earn any money on that.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   DRY DOCKS CONSTRUCTION-GOVERNMENT AID.
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CON

John Graham Haggart

Conservative (1867-1942)

Hon. Mr. IIAGGART.

This company at Collingwood should have no claim on the government for the site or for any assistance that the town gave. *

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   DRY DOCKS CONSTRUCTION-GOVERNMENT AID.
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The MINISTER OF FINANCE.

I would not like to answer that off-hand.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   DRY DOCKS CONSTRUCTION-GOVERNMENT AID.
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CON

John Graham Haggart

Conservative (1867-1942)

Hon. Mr. HAGGART.

But they should not.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   DRY DOCKS CONSTRUCTION-GOVERNMENT AID.
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The POSTMASTER GENERAL.

The hon. gentleman need not be concerned about Col-

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   DRY DOCKS CONSTRUCTION-GOVERNMENT AID.
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June 15, 1903