May 18, 1903

LIB

Lawrence Geoffrey Power (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER.

That motion has to be made with the unanimous consent of the House.

Topic:   PROHIBITION OF THE IMPORTATION, MANUFACTURE, OR SALE OF CIGARETTES.
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Robert Bickerdike

Mr. BICKERDIKE.

I have no doubt that the House will consent, because we have to have a discussion of this Bill at some time.

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LIB

Rodolphe Lemieux

Liberal

Mr. LEMIEUX.

I think that section 31, of the rules and orders require that two day's notice must be given.

Topic:   PROHIBITION OF THE IMPORTATION, MANUFACTURE, OR SALE OF CIGARETTES.
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LIB

Lawrence Geoffrey Power (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER.

Yes, the motion has to be made with the unanimous consent of the House.

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L-C

Andrew B. Ingram

Liberal-Conservative

Mr. INGRAM.

Mr. Speaker, could you say why the objections were not taken when the Bill was first introduced, in order to save time ?

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LIB

Lawrence Geoffrey Power (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER.

Because, as I explained a minute ago, I had not seen the Bill then, and I could not decide whether the Bill was for the purpose I have indicated or not.

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CON

Frederick Debartzch Monk

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MONK.

I think it is fair to ask, in view of the vote given on the resolution introduced by my hon. friend (Mr. Bickerdike), if the government will take any steps to cure this difficulty, which is, after ail, only a technical difficulty ?

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The MINISTER OF FINANCE.

There is nothing in the circumstances which requires the government to intervene. Mr. Speaker has explained that this Bill may be brought up again by way of resolution. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Bickerdike) has only to give notice of his resolution in the usual way, and proceed in committee in order that this Bill may be introduced. It does not require any action upon the part of the government.

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Robert Bickerdike

Mr. BICKERDIKE.

Will the government give me an opportunity to go on with the Bill if this is done ? It will probably be a little late for this session.

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The MINISTER OF FINANCE.

That can be considered later on. In the meantime the hon. gentleman' had better proceed in the ordinary way as pointed out by Mr. Speaker.

Bill withdrawn.

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STEAMBOAT INSPECTION ACT. 189S- AMENDMENT.


Mr. LEIGHTON MCCARTHY (North Sim-coe) moved second reading of Bill (No. 136) to amend the Steamboat Inspection Act, 1898. He said : This Bill proposes to alleviate certain grievances which the National Association of Marine Engineers of Canada labour under. This body has addressed to the Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Hon. Mr. Prgfontaine) and to other members of the House, circulars in which they have set out their grievances under seven heads. The first three of these are as follows : 1. That every vessel coming under the Steamboat Inspection Act of Canada of whatever ca- pa-city be required to carry certificated engineers. 2. That all temporary certificates be abolished. 3. That engineers holding 4th class certificates be allowed to take charge of boats from 5 N. H. P. single cylinder, up to 10 N. H. P. of compound type. The Bill which I now propose will remove the grievances specified under these three different heads. As regards the other four sub-heads of the complaint of the marine engineers of Canada, I do not think they can be reached by a Bill of this kind, because they are regulated by Order in Council passed by the Governor General in Council upon the recommendation of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries. These four subheads are as follows : 4. Candidate for the fourth-class certificate must have 36 months' service in a machine shop on the making and repairing of steam engines, also 12 months' service in the engine room as an oiler or fireman, or in lieu of above service, he must serve 48 months as fireman or oiler on the watch. 5. That all candidates before going up for examination for certificates have their credentials or recommendations examined by the subordinate council of the National Association of Marine Engineers in the locality in which they reside for verification. 6. That owing to confliction often arising between the engineers and the deck officers, re the use and care of deck hose on steamboats, such hose being used in the dual capacity of fire and deck hose, and which hose is used exclusively by the deck officers. Therefore, we, the engineers of Canada request, that the law be amended so that after said hose is put in proper order and passes the scrutiny of the inspector, that all responsibility for the proper care of such deck or fire hose be transferred from the engineer to the deck officers for the remainder of the season. 7. That the Order in Council permitting vessels to ply in Canadian waters, irrespective of Canadian laws, or inspection and manned by uncertificated engineers is a detriment to the marine interests of Canada in competing with Canadian built vessels, and also an injustice to men holding certificates of competency under the Canadian law. We ask that said order be rescinded and that all vessels plying in Canadian waters be subject to the laws governing Canadian built vessels. Every hon. gentleman will see at a glance what is proposed by the Bill which I now introduce, and it will not be necessary therefore for me to dwell at length upon its different sections until the Bill reaches committee. I desire, however, to point out to the hon. the Minister of Marine that should he desire to provide a remedy for the four last subsections of the grievances complained of, he will have to amend the Order in Council now existing and in order to meet the desire of the National Association of Marine Engineers of Canada, X would sugest to the minister the advisability of amending part 5 of the regulations, section 112, subsection ' B.' which now reads as follows : Engineers shall keep the fire pump and hose and their connections in perfect condition ready for immediate use and when found unfit for use from age or other cause shall report their condition to the inspector of hulls by whom the steamer was last inspected. This section should be amended by substituting the word ' put ' for the word ' keep ' in the first line thereof and striking out the words ' or other cause ' in the fourth line thereof and substituting the words ' or defects,' and by adding the following paragraph to the section : And after the granting of the certificates under the Steamboat Inspection Act, the said hose and their connections, shall be in charge of the deck officers of the said steamboat who shall be responsible therefor, and If at any time they are fo-und unfit for use from age, or other cause, they shall report their condition to the inspector of hulls by whom the steamer was last inspected. I would also suggest to the hon. minister the following amendments to part 6 of his regulations, subsections ' B,' ' C,' ' D,' and ' F ' of section 1 should be repealed and the following substituted : (b) He shall have served an apprenticeship of not less than thirty-six months in a steam-engine shop and being employed on the making and repairing of steam engines, and have served twelve months in the engine room as an oiler or fireman of a steamboat-or, if he has not served such apprenticeship he shall have been employed for not less than thirty-six months as a journeyman mechanic in some workshop on the making and repairing of steam engines and have served twelve months in the engine room of a steamboat as oiler or fireman ;-or (c) He shall have served at least thirty-six months in an engine room of a steamboat on the watch, and twelve months in the engine room of a steamboat as oiler or foreman ;-or (d) He shall have served not less than thirty-six months as oiler on the watch in the engine room of a steamer of not less than thirty nominal horse power, and twelve months in the engine room of a steamboat as oiler or fireman -or, (e) He Shall have served not less than forty-eight months as fireman on the watch in the fire hold of a steamboat of not less than thirty nominal horse power ;- (f) And in any of the above cases of service twelve (12) months service in a boiler shop on the making and repairing of steam boilers may be accepted in lieu of twelve months of the service named, provided however, that he shall in all cases have served at least twelve (12) months in the engine iroom of a steamboat as oiler or fireman. The marine engineers think that these amendments will alleviate the grievance referred to in the six subsections of their complaint. I may say that the main basis of the grievances of these gentlemen seems to be that an applicant may apply to the department and obtain a certificate enabling him to act as an engineer upon the different steamboats plying on Canadian waters. They allege that this authority has been granted and that certificates have been granted to various engineers when there was no necessity for such certificates being granted, the result being to deprive certified engineers of employment. These gentlemen tell



me that there is really no necessity for granting these certificates to noil-certified engineers who have applied in previous years. I do not vouch for that because I have no personal knowledge thereof, but I do think that their contention is logical when they say that employment should be found for engineers holding certificates before another applicant should be given a certificate. If the department provides for amendments in the present regulations in the line of those suggested by the Marine Engineers' Association of Canada, it will go far to remove the difficulties which they now complain of. This association, I may say, is a large and representative body in Canada. They have held meetings at various places, and the circular which is addressed to me comes from St. John, N.B. I believe that every member of the House has received a copy of this circular, and that most, if not all, the members, have heard from the grand president of the association, who has spent some days in Ottawa.


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The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES (Hon. Raymond Prefon-taine).

Mr. Speaker, as Minister of

Marine and Fisheries, I have no objection to the Bill being read a second time, and being referred to the Committee of the Whole, and progress being reported, for the reason that up to the present time, I have been unable to get a full report on the subject from the officers of the department. As regards the merits of the Bill, I think there are some very good suggestions in it; there are others that may not be so good ; and before discussing the Bill as it should be discussed, I would like to get from the officers of my department the necessary information.

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CON

Edward Frederick Clarke

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. E. F. CLARKE (West Toronto).

May I ask the minister whether the officers of this organization to which reference has been made by the hon. member for North Simcoe, did not appear before him recently?

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The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES.

They were before me, and I have asked the department for a report which I have been unable to get as yet, owing to the opening of navigation and nearly all the officers being away.

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CON

James Clancy

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. JAMES CLANCY (Bothwell).

I would like to ask if the Minister of Marine and Fisheries has heard more than one side of this question. It is, as the hon. gentleman knows, a very large question, and the Bill involves probably more than appears on the surface. I am not going to give opposition to the Bill, but I do think the Minister of Marine and Fisheries will be more apt to do justice to all parties concerned if he has this Bill printed and distributed, and gives the country a chance to see what it contains before it is crystallized into law. And I hope the hon. gentleman will not take Mr. McCarthy.

simply one side of the case, and assume that there is no other.

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LIB

William Forsythe McCreary

Liberal

Mr. W. F. McCREARY (Selkirk).

I have not had time to give this Bill the consideration I ought to give to it; but I would like to ask the Minister of Marine and Fisheries to take into consideration the lakes situated in the west where it is somewhat difficult to get engineers to comply with what this Act calls for. On lake Winnipeg there are ten or fifteen boats used to haul nets to the frames. There are also one or two small tugs plying between Selkirk and Norway House. There are also one or two steamers on Lake Winnipegoosis. I have heard the owners of these boats complain of the difficulty of getting competent engineers up there, and it seems to me that if this Bill passes it will be almost impossible to get certificated engineers to go up for the short season, and the remuneration asked by them will be almost prohibitive. I do not want to object to the Bill, but I merely ask the minister to take into consideration these lakes before he allows it to pass this session.

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L-C

Samuel Hughes

Liberal-Conservative

Mr. SAMUEL HUGHES (Victoria).

This engineer business is a matter of very serious importance. I know that a committee in Toronto is searching for a gentleman named Cap. Sullivan, and be is drifting because an engineer cannot be got for the tug. This' engineer question is a very serious one.

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CON

David Henderson

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. D. HENDERSON (Halton).

I confess I have been considerably surprised to see a Bill of this character introduced by a private member instead of emanating from the government. I do not know why the hon. member for North Simcoe has brought forward this Bill. I do not know whether he has undertaken this duty without consulting the Department of Marine and Fisheries, but I certainly think that legislation of this kind should emanate from the minister who is responsible for such legislation, surrounded as he is by officers who should be able to give him every kind of information necessary to enable him to draft a proper Bill. I am sure the House would receive such a Bill with a great deal more confidence than one introduced by a private member, because we would have the assurance that those best qualified to deal with the matter had given the Bill their very careful judgment. I have looked at one or two clauses of this Bill, and I fail altogether to see any reason why the amendments proposed should be adopted. It would almost seem to me as if there were some other motive behind it than the public good-possibly a means of some particular person or class of persons securing a position, which, with a Bill emanating from the government, would not be permitted at all. I think the Minister of Marine and Fisheries should look carefully into this matter, and, if he intends to maintain the dignity

of the high and honourable position which he occupies, I would hardly think that he would permit even a supporter of his to forestall him by introducing important legislation of this character. X regard the whole Bill regarding steamboat inspection as one of the very greatest importance. Having in view the protection of life and property, it is a Bill that should be drafted with the very greatest care, and with all the safeguards that can possibly be thrown around it by the be'st qualified officers we have in the country to deal with the matter. It would be dangerous to allow a a Bill of this kind to go simply through a Committee of the House, which has not the advantage of the experience and skill of the gentlemen who ought first to pronounce on a Bill of this kind. I trust that the minister will take the matter into consideration, and guard the interests of the country by first bringing to bear upon the Bill all the information that is possessed by the officers of his department.

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May 18, 1903