April 1, 1903


Charles Bernhard Heyd


Mr. C. B. HEYD (South Brant).

I would like to ask some one who has made a study of this question whether the deleterious effects of cigarette smoking are brought about by the tobacco itself that is used in their manufacture, or by the drugs that are introduced to make the cigarettes more enticing. Now if these effects are brought

about by tbe drugs and not by tbe tobacco, could not the object we are trying to attain be secured by preventing the importation, manufacture and use of cigarettes in which a drug is used either in the tobacco or in the paper ?


Andrew Broder

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. A. BRODER (Dundas).

This matter is all in a nut shell. We do not want to have an analyst in every village to find out whether a cigarette is made with pure or adulterated tobacco. It is no matter to an old smoker whether cigarettes are prohibited or not, because as a rule lie does not use them. I think there is no question but that boys are injured by the use of cigarettes. I doubt if there is a man in this House who has not observed in every village small boys on the street smoking cigarettes in tne evening, boys from 10 up to 14 years of age. Now we have a law on the statute-book in Ontario that is evaded by the older boy over 18 years of age buying cigarettes and giving them to the younger boy. The trader sells them to the older boy to whom the law permits him to sell, and the latter goes out on the street and divides up with the younger boy, who has perhaps helped him to the cash to buy the cigarettes. Then there is the boy who is under better home influences, whose father and mother try to keep him away from the evil; he meets a boy on the street who is not under good influences, and the latter gives him a cigarette. That is going on all over this country. Now the question is, if there is any hardship at all suffered by the older portion of the community, whether it is not worth their while to suffer that inconvenience in the interest of the boys of the country. No one who observes what is going on but must have noticed the effect of smoking cigarettes upon young lads who are using them. Now, perhaps there is no part of the community which will suffer from a prohibition of the importation than those frontier towns along the line of the United States where, if such a law is put upon the statute-book, cigarettes will be brought in from the villages on the other side of the line, and our own frontier villages will continue to suffer more or less in that respect. It seems to me that it is the sense of this House that it is an evil that should be dealt with, and if so the sooner it is dealt with the less hardship there will be to all concerned. I am not a constitutional lawyer, and I hope I never will be, in the interest of the country, but. I think most common sense men cannot fail to come to the conclusion that this parliament has the right to deal with this subject. We can prohibit the manufacture, we can prohibit the importation and we can prohibit the sale of what we consider detrimental to the public generally.


Charles Edwin Kaulbach

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. C. E. KAULBACH (Lunenburg).

Mr. Speaker, I venture to say that a great deal of credit is due to the hon. mover and seconder of this motion in bringing forward Mr. HEYD.

a matter which is so important to the welfare of the young of this Dominion. The habit of cigarette smoking has been a growing evil for a number of years. It is a painful sight to see the youth of our country under the age of twenty-one years smoking cigarettes ; nay, tobacco in any form. I cannot agree with my hon. friend from Montreal, St. Antoine, (Mr. Roddick) when he suggests that we should make the age limit seventeen. I say make the age limit twenty-one. A young man has not arrived at the age of ripe young manhood until he reaches the age of twenty-one. Why it should be seventeen, I cannot understand. If a youth is affected by use of tobacco at the age of seventeen by the impurities that arise from the tobacco imbued or infused into the system, I conceive, that the same evil exists, perhaps not to the same extent, until he arrives at the age of twenty-one, and I still go farther and say that it even continues beyond the age of twenty-one. In fact, a young man does not possess strong moral courage until he arrives at the age of twenty-one.

That the smoking of cigarettes has been proved by overwhelming testimony to be productive of serious physical and moral injury to young people; -impairing health, arresting development, weakening intellectual power, and thus constituting a social and national evil


As this is indisputable, legislation should be enacted to prohibit the importation, sale and use of cigarettes is a suggestion which I heartily endorse. I conceive, Mr. Speaker, that it is within the purview of this Dominion to enact prohibitive measures and not for the legislatures of the respective provinces to assume this action. We have an Act upon the statute-books of the province of Nova Scotia, as has been shown by the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Logan), we have another in the province of Ontario and another in the province of Quebec. But, these Acts are completely ignored. In my own town may be seen boys who have scarcely arrived at the age of ten years smoking cigarettes. Nay, I will go farther and say that I have seen them smoking vile pipes and as such are offenders, and open to the most stringent measures that the law can possibly enact. I believe that the remark which fell from the lips of the last speaker (Mr. Broder) in respect to the manufacture of cigarettes, should be carefully considered. The intention of the mover and seconder of this motion is that the manufacture of cigarettes should be prohibited in this country, but a youth may purchase his tobacco in any form he pleases, use any kind of paper he pleases and manufacture his own cigarette. The motion should go further and say that it should be part of the Criminal Code of this country that any youth who is caught in the act of smoking a cigarette, whether made by himself or otherwise, should suffer the penalty of


the law, and I would urge this amendment upon the mover and seconder of this motion. Perhaps I take a stronger view than many lion, gentlemen here when X say thati the use of cigarettes is only an introduction to many other evils that human nature is heir to, and that if the suppression of the use of the cigarette was strictly carried out I believe that the other vices to which youths are liable and that human nature is subject to would be very quickly removed. I would strongly support the age limit of twenty-one instead of seventeen as my hon. friend (Mr. Roddick) suggests.


George Stephens


Mr. G. STEPHENS (Kent, Ontario).

Mr. Speaker, I did not intend to speak on this question, but in view of the great importance which it is to the people of this country, not only at the present time but in the future to our young men who are growing up, I felt that I would not be doing my duty to the riding I have the honour to represent did I not stand up and say something In favour of this resolution. X am sure that any hon. member of this House who goes up' and down the streets in any town or city ip this country can see the evil effect which cigarette smoking lias upon our boys, and I believe that there is no other way of stopping the evil unless the importation, sale and manufacture of cigarettes are prohibited. I therefore shall have much pleasure in supporting this resolution and I will conclude by expressing the hope that the government may find some way of stopping what is tiecoming a great evil amongst the boys of this country.


Hon. WM@

ROSS (Victoria, N.S.) I think, Mr. Speaker, that all the representatives of the people in this House agree that this is a growing evil. It is an evil that was unknown in my early days, and I know from personal observation in Halifax that it is an evil that is increasing more and more every year. Now, the question is this : Are the parents showing the best example to their children In the use of tobacco in any shape or form ? I give myself the credit of saying that I never used tobacco and if I had my way there would not be any person in this world that would use it. But, however, I am not vain enough to think that that reform will be carried out in this age. Now, w7e have this evil. This evil is increasing and this House is the -only body that can deal with the question according to the resolution in its present shape. Therefore, let us not shirk the responsibility of doing what we can in the interest of the children that are going to be the men of Canada in a short time. If this evil is allowed to continue there will be very few that will grow to the age of manhood. They will not be men either in mind or in body, if they continue the practice of using, tobacco in any shape or form under a certain age, because we cannot confine the evil of tobacco to cigarettes alone. The use of tobacco by our young boys must

be injurious. Therefore I heartily endorse the resolution that has been submitted to this House and I would like that the House should assume the responsibility of dealing with it in a strong and vigorous manner.

I do not intend to say more, only that when I was young I used to repeat something like this :

Tobacco is a stinking weed ; it was the devil that sowed the seed

It drains your purse ; it stains your clothes

And makes a- chimney of your nose.


Joseph Israël Tarte


Hon. J. I. TARTE (St. Mary's, Montreal).

There is no doubt whatever that tobacco and liquor have caused a great deal of evil. I agree with the hon. gentleman (Hon. Mr. Ross) that we should start by giving good example ourselves. If grown up people, like members of - parliament, would smoke a little less than they do, perhaps our young people would not smoke so much. Be that as it may, I have never believed in coercion. I do not think that coercion has ever cured any moral evil. My hon. friend from Montreal (Mr. Bicker-dike) asks us to prevent the smoking of cigarettes, but only a week ago I read in the ' Lancet,' one of the most important and influential medical newspapers in the world, that cigarettes are not quite as1 harmful as cigars. It would follow then, that if we ask that cigarettes be not manufactured or sold, cigars should be prohibited at the same time,; and tobacco in all shapes and forms. This resolution would not go far enough, so far as I am personally concerned, but I shall not deal with that aspect of the case at all. I do not believe in prohibition of that kind. Let us regulate the smoking of cigarettes and of cigars and of tobacco and let us regulate the sale of liquor. Prohibition has not been very popular with us in Quebec. Not because we drink more than the people of the other provinces, but because we believe in freedom.


Some hon. MEMBERS

Hear, hear.


Joseph Israël Tarte


Hon. Mr. TARTE.

If better education were given in the schools, if on the walls of the schools there were photographs showing the young generation the great evils of liquor and tobacco, it would go a great deal further to remedy the evil than any law7 we can pass here. Let us educate our young generation in the proper way, but don't let us enact law's which have proved a failure elsewhere. The prohibition of liquor has proved to be a failure almost everywhere it has been enacted, and the prohibition of the manufacture and importation of cigarettes would prove a failure and a dead failure. Any man of experience w'ill agree with me on that. I do not speak from any interested motives on this question. I have never smoked, thank God ; I am trying to give good example, and I hope to die without smoking.


Charles Eusèbe Casgrain

Conservative (1867-1942)


You'll smoke when you die.

lion. Mr. TARTE. Well, it will not make me less immortal than I hope to be. These are the views which I entertain on questions of this kind. It seems to me that a law prohibiting the importation and manufacture of cigarettes would be a failure and if such a law be enacted, then it should be extended to tobacco of all kinds ; a thing which I believe, is out of the question.


Mr. T.@

8. SPROULE (East Grey). I am heartily in accord with the resolution, although I am forced to believe that such legislation does not always accomplish the end aimed at. I can well believe that it is injurious both morally and physically that either boys or adults should smoke cigarettes. The hon. gentleman (Hon. Mr. Tarte) told us that he read in the ' Lancet ' that cigars were worse than cigarettes. Prom the information I have that is not correct, because the cigarettes are saturated with stramonium and other narcotics which makes them more injurious in their effect than if they were made from tobacco alone, and cigars are usually manufactured out of tobacco alone. I hold, that provided you are able to prevent boys from smoking cigarettes up to the time of their majority, the danger would not be so great, and the best way to insure that is to make it more difficult to purchase cigarettes. If men take to the use of cigarettes in their mature years they are responsible for it and the evil will be confined to themselves alone. But when boys acquire the habit in their youth, it gets fixed and they are not able to give it up afterwards. I think it would be in the interest of the rising generation that we should prevent this evil from contaminating them. As that can only be done through this parliament, which controls importation and manufacture, I am in favour of the resolution. Although the provincial parliaments may pass laws to make it illegal to sell to a minor, still while it is easy for young boys to obtain cigarettes because of the freedom with which they are distributed throughout the country, the provincial law cannot be very well enforced. I am in favour of this resolution, Mr. Speaker.


Peter Macdonald (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)


Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER (Peter Macdonald, East Huron).

I am in favour of this resolution. I believe that if it is adopted by this House, and if a law is founded upon it, it will be one of the best laws that can possibly be conceived for the preservation of the young. I do not think that the tobacco contained in the cigarettes is more injurious than tobacco used in the pipe or the cigar, but I am informed upon good authority, that the paper in which the tobacco is rolled, contains ingredients which are injurious to the smoker. I have been informed that the cigarette paper is immersed in some solution of morphine which gives to the smoker a delightful sensation. and leads him from point to point until be becomes addicted to the cigarette Mr. CASGRAIN.

habit. I am told also that the inhalation of the smoke creates a sensation such as opium would create, and therefore that it engenders in the young a desire to use it which it is almost impossible to restrain. Therefore, I think it would be wisdom on the part of the House first to pass the resolution, and then pass a law founded on that resolution. My hon. friend (Hon. Mr. Tarte) says that he believes in freedom. So do I ; but as the poet says :

Freedom properly understood ; is a universal license to do good.

Too much freedom is almost as bad as tyranny. What we want to do is to keep our boys free from the temptations which are now thrown in their way, and if we do that there will be no tyranny about it. I trust that this motion will result in a Bill prohibiting the importation and manufacture of cigarettes.


William Rees Brock

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. W. R. BROCK (Centre Toronto).

I merely rise to call the attention of the House to what is going on in this country, and in many other countries at the present time. That is, we are removing from the proper sphere the care of our children and the care of the morals of this country. I contend that the proper places in which to inculcate right principles into the minds of our children are the homes of the country.


William Rees Brock

Conservative (1867-1942)


More and more we have of late been throwing upon the legislatures and the courts those duties that should be attended to in our own homes. We are educating the children of this country free ; we are supplying them with books free ; we are throwing largely upon our churches the primary teaching of religion which it is the duty of every father and mother to give to their children. How often, when children go astray, do we find fathers and mothers looking to the laws to have them kept in the proper paths, instead of impressing upon their children in their own homes what their duties are. Why, Sir, in this country it is quite the exception to find religious instruction given to children in their homes. That is left entirely either to the churches or the Sunday schools. Fathers and mothers are neglecting it, because other means are provided ; and if you are going to pass laws of the kind proposed, the result will be that the children will be left entirely to the law, and parents will not exercise any influence over them. I would strongly urge that more attention be paid to the morals of children in their own homes, and that in the event of children going astray, their parents should be fined. As it is at present, children who smoke cigarettes are brought before a police magistrate and he punishes them, as well as the person who has sold the cigarettes if he can be got at ; but the sale is usually done

in such a way that it is almost impossible to get at these people. I think this discussion will have done good if it directs the attention of parents to the importance of looking after the religious and moral instruction of their children in their own homes.


The PRIME MINISTER (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier).

I have listened with a great deal of interest to the discussion that has taken place on this somewhat important question. I would have preferred that the discussion had been even more general than it has been, because this is a question upon which the government itself has no policy to offer to the House, but desires to be guided by the sense of the House representing the community. In view of the discussion which has taken place, in view especially of the opinion which has been given to us by some gentlemen who are authorities on this subject, it seems to be undeniable that the use of cigarettes by young boys is very injurious. The same remark would apply, so far as I can see, to the use of tobacco in any form ; and for my part I am ready to believe that the use of tobacco, whether in the form of cigarettes or cigars or the pipe, is extremely injurious to young children and to youths in adolescence, whereas in the case of grown-up people, it seems to be a very innocent pleasure,- if indeed it is a pleasure-it is not so to everybody. If the use of tobacco is an innocent amusement to grown-up people, I do not think they should be debarred from indulging in it by those who do not relish it. The point taken by the bon. member for St. John and Iberville (Mr. Demers) seems to me to be conclusive. The object of this resolution is simply to make it impossible for young boys to use cigarettes ; and a very drastic remedy is proposed, that is, that we should prevent the manufacture and sale of cigarettes. Of course, that would be a very effective way of protecting the youth of the country from a dangerous amusement ; but at the same time it would prevent men who derive no injury frpm it from indulging in that amusement. I agree with a great deal that has been said, and I agree with everything that has been said by my hon. friend from Toronto (Mr. Brock) to the effect that the best way to cure these evils is to attend more to domestic education and less to legislation. If we attempt, by way of restrictive legislation, to prohibit tilings which in themselves are not harmful, we may place upon the statute-book a class of legislation which will not be respected by the community. There are at present on the statute-books of the several provinces laws which, if observed, are sufficient to meet the evil in question ; but we are told that these laws are not observed. Well, if these laws are not observed, is it to be expected that a more drastic law will be observed ? 1 see boys smoking cigarettes in the streets every day, and it is always

painful to me to see young children of ten or twelve years of age violating the law in this way, injuring their constitutions and impairing their mental powers ; but I do not turn informer and have them prosecuted. If I saw a boy committing a theft, I would not hesitate to call in a policeman to arrest him, and everybody would do the same. But if we put on the statute-book a more drastic measure on this subject than we have at present, I do not think we shall be doing any more to cure the evil, but we shall have mply added one more to those offensive laws which are enacted but not enforced. This is an open question, and everybody can vote upon the resolution as he likes ; but in my opinion the best way to cure the evil in question is the way indicated by my hon. friend from Toronto (Mr. Brock).

House divided on the resolution.

YEAS : Messieurs







Bicker dike.































Hughes (Victoria), Hyman,


Johnston (Cardwell), Johnston (Lambton), Kaulbach,















Maclaren (Huntingdon), MacLaren (Perth), Macpherson,







Marcil (Bonaventure), Matheson,





Mulock (Sir William), Pope,


Reid (Grenville),

Reid (Restigouche), Richardson,

Robinson (Elgin), Roche (Halifax),

Roche (Marquette), Roddick,


Ross (Ontario),

Ross (Victoria, N.S.), Russell,



Smith (Vancouver), Sproule,



Sutherland (Essex), Talbot,


Thompson (Haldimand and Monck),
















Borden (Sir Frederick), Brock,







.Demers (Levis), Demers (St. John), Dugas,


Fori ier,




Laurier (Sir Wilfrid), Lavergne.

Resolution agreed







Marcil (Bagot), Martineau,

May rand,









Ross (Yukon), Rousseau,


Sutherland (Oxford), Tarte,





Thomas Simpson Sproule

Conservative (1867-1942)


Might I ask the right hon. the First Minister when he intends to carry out these instructions from the House?



I shall have to give up smoking.




Mr. D. A.@

STEWART (Lisgar) moved for :

Return showing all correspondence between the Inland Revenue Department and manufacturers of automatic grain-weighers, used on threshing machines, in Manitoba and the Northwest Territories. Between the Inland Revenue Department and inventors of automatic grain-weighers for threshing machines. Between the Inland Revenue Department and thresher men using automatic grain-weighers, in Manitoba and the North-west Territories. Also, copy of report of chief inspector and scale architect re the standard grain-weigher manufactured by the Globe Manufacturing Company of Winnipeg.

He said : I rise to move this motion in the interests of the tlireshermen of Manitoba and the North-west Territories, who are suffering under this great hardship of not being able to collect in the courts any account which they may have against a customer for work done. The present system of meeting the conditions of the west has been the result of gradual evolution. The thresherman began with a bushel measure which he emptied into his bags. The low bagger was then invented, to which the thresherman attached his bags, and these bags were filled automatically. From the low bagger, the high bagger was developed. The grain is elevated to a height of about 18 feet from the ground, weighed at the top of his high bagger, and thence loaded into wagons or bags. In Manitoba and the Territories the thresherman is paid accord-Sir WILFRID LAURIER. .

ing to the result of his day's threshing, but in Ontario I believe lie is still paid, as was the system 24 years ago when I was in that province, by the day. In the province the charges per day run from $3 to $10, according to the size of this outfit, and it makes no difference whether the thresherman threshes 500 or 1,000 bushels in a day, his pay is the same. The Ontario thresherman only furnishes a crew of three men whereas the Manitoba thresherman finds all the hands necessary for the engine and threshing. His expenses per day will run from $32 to $41, and if he engages the neces-. sary teams for stook threshing, his expenses wili run from $68 to $81. This amount of wages he has to lose if he is dealing with a dishonest customer who refuses to pay. In Ontario, the threshing accounts are small compared with those in Manitoba. In Manitoba and the Territories anything below $150 is a small account, $200 is a fair account, and the accounts run as high as $700, $800 and $1,000. A threshing outfit costs from $2,000 to $4,000. and is usually payable in three instalments. You can, therefore, see that it is a very serious matter for a western thresherman, if he be unable to collect two or three of his accounts. The standard grain weigher manufactured by the Globe Company of Winnipeg gives satisfactory results, and the fact that there is a demand for that kind of a machine all through the west shows that they are a necessity for the handling of the crop. In all cases, where I have made inquiries, the farmers have invariably told me that they were satisfied with the weights they receive from these machines. It has a device for estimating the value of the job and is not used for buying or selling grain. To show you the amount of money invested in threshing machines in Manitoba and the Territories, let me give you a few figures. In 1902, there were S00 used in the Territories and 2,000 in Manitoba. These outfits would run in value from $2,000 to $4,000. Take an average of $3,000 as the value of an outfit, and you will find that the large sum of $8,400,000 is invested in this machinery in our Northwest. The threshing accounts in Manitoba in 1901 were made on the following basis : 41 cents per bushel for wheat; 3 cents for oats, and 3 cents for barley; and the total amounted to $3,116,875. In 1902, the threshing account for the crop, based on the last revised returns, would amount to $4,292,383. In the Territories, for 1902. the amount would be $1,051,521, or over $5,000,000 in both cases, not one dollar of which can be collected in court. I have brought this question before the House and the government in the hopes that they will advance with the times and that this government will devise some legislation which will give the thresherman. who is doing his best to bring the grain from the great fields of the west into the bins of the granary of the empire, the justice to which lie is entitled and of which he stands greatly in need.


Nathaniel Boyd

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. X. BOYD (Macdonald).

I wonld just remind the House that this is not a new question here. Last session, and, I think, the session preceding it, this matter was brought to the attention of the Minister of Inland Revenue (Hon. Mr. Bernier). It was pointed out to that hon. gentleman that this was a matter of very great importance to the people of Manitoba and the North-west Territories. And, as has been shown by the hon. member for Lisgar (Mr. Stewart) it is a matter of great moment indeed that men may refuse, legally, under an Act of the government, to pay bills ranging from $100 to $1,000-and all because the department seem to think the matter so small as to be unworthy the attention which some of us hold that it should receive. We were promised last year by the Minister of Inland Revenue that something should be done. He took a number of members of Manitoba and the North-west Territories to his department and exhibited a machine which we believed, and which he seemed to think would meet the emergencies of the case. I understand that a report has been handed in to the minister by an officer of the Crown to the effect that this machine met the conditions imposed by the department and that it was accepted for verification. Since that time, a gentleman has been brought into the department, from Montreal, taken out of some scale factory there, part blacksmith, part scale manufacturer, and placed over the heads of five or six other men equally as good as he, and better prepared scientifically, better experienced in many ways. That gentleman has been placed over the heads of others, and, for reasons not yet explained to any person who has made inquiries, he has seen fit to discard this weighing machine that had been accepted by an officer of the Crown before. And so the matter stands at the present time. But, of course, it is a trifling matter, a matter of very little importance-to the minister who sits quietly by and permits his officers to do as they please. But it is a most important matter to the people of Manitoba and the Northwest Territory. I read to the House last session, a case in which a man came to court and refused to pay. If we do not resort to the old busheller, with which twenty men would not take away the grain from the machines of the present day, a man cannot collect his accounts. Not a dollar can be legally collected for all the threshing done in Manitoba and the Northwest Territories to-day. If there were not a special weighing machine already in use, if it were not a fact that an Order in Council could be passed any day to procure the same, there might' be some reason for allowing this inconvenience to continue. If the minister would bestir himself sufficiently to go to Council with an order-which 1 am sure would be passed at once-authorizing these special weighing machines, as has been done in the matter of weighing

coal, measuring syrup and in other things, the matter could be settled at once. I have seen the machine working to which I refer, and it is as near perfect as any machine that can be found. It comes nearer to being correct than the system by which grain is being weighed and measured in Manitoba to-day. As it is now, they use bags, or, in some cases, they have weighing machines accepted by both parties interested, who feel that they can trust each other's honesty. This machine is much better than any I have seen yet. But to humor the whim of an officer who, only a few months ago was brought in from outside and placed over the heads of men who, by their experience, are better qualified to give an opinion, this enormous trade throughout Manitoba and the North-west Territories must be left at the mercy of any dishonest men. I speak with some warmth, Mr. Speaker, but I do so because nothing else seems to stir the Minister of Inland Revenue to a sense of what is due to the public. If we were satisfied with flails and reaping hooks and cradles, I suppose we would come up to his ideas of how farming ought to be conducted. I call the attention of the Prime Minister (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier) to this matter, and I expect him to see to it that things shall not be left in such a position that members from Manitoba and the North-west Territories must rise and complain, as we justly complain, of this gross neglect on the part of the Minister of Inland Revenue.


April 1, 1903