Mr. MCCARTHY.

So far as the timber products of the company are concerned, they are entirely within the purview of the local

Mr. WADE.

government. When any one, obtains the right to cut timber from a local government, he purchases that right subject to any restrictions which the local government may deem fit to impose from time to time. The ' Ontario government, for instance, some time ago prevented the export of pine logs, and altered the licenses they had given in this respect. There was a lawsuit, but the alteration was sustained, so that any man who purchases timber limits does so subject to the conditions and regulations of the Crown Bands Department of the province. Thus the purchase by this company from the Quebec government is subject to the regulations and conditions which that government may impose, and that government may impose an export duty on any pulp wood exported and not manufactured" in the territory. I am informed, however, by my right lion, friend the Prime Minister that in the province of Quebec the license holders have to pay so much timber dues on the wood they cut, but if that wood is manufactured in the province, they are allowed a rebate. In Ontario the license holders have no right to export pine logs, and I think the same regulation applies also to pulp wood. When a lumber merchant purchases, as those seeking incorporation have done, he does so subject to the regulations and conditions imposed by the Minister of Crown Lands in the province of Quebec, so that I do not see why this House should interfere in the, direction suggested.

I might further add that the parties seeking incorporation have told me that their intention is to proceed at once to erect a large saw mill and pulp mill on the territory they have purchased and build up a large industry there. I may tell my hon. fwend that his statement that these powers are asked for in order to mislead parliament is entirely incorrect. It is necessary for people who are developing a country to have these powers. The hon. gentleman well knows that when the Sault Ste. Marie Company was incorporated, it began operating in pulp. Then the proprietors discovered mineral wealth in their territory, and immediately began developing that. Then they found that they required ships for navigation purposes, and immediately began to develop in that direction. All those who have gone into the work of developing the country have learned by experience that it is necessary they should obtain the powers mentioned in this Bill. It is most important that this company should have the right to acquire ships-more so than it is to the Sault Ste, Marie Company, because there is at present only bimonthly trips by steamer to that locality and ships do not call regularly there, and probably could not be induced to go there. These people will require the necessary ships to transport their supplies and materials in and the manufactured products out, and I do not think that we ought to curtail the powers they are asking. The ineor-

porators of tliis company are all Canadians but one. The two first named gentlemen are old Toronto men who went to New York and made money there in the paper business aud who desire to develop largely the territory they have acquired. One of them is a United States citizen, but the other is still a Canadiau. The other members of the company are all Toronto men of substantial means. These people have paid their money for the limits and are going to a territory, which is now practically a wilderness, for the purpose of developing it as Canadians and for Canadians.

Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).

Mr. BORDEN (Hailfax).

I observe that.

Mr. McCarthy. If they do manufacture pulp to a large extent, they will probably require their own ships to bring the product to the English and European markets.

Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).

I do not regard that incidental consideration as a sufficient justification for the interference of this parliament. I do not know what proof was laid before the committee that it is absolutely necessary that this company, which is entirely in the embryo at present-

Mr. McCarthy. It is only in the embryo as regards its charter. It has acquired and paid for all this territory.

Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).

These gentlemen have not yet commenced to manufacture so that the company, as regards its operations, is still entirely in the embryo, and I would not suppose that it was an absolutely necessary incident of a company formed for this purpose, that it should own its own ships. But if that be the case, the proper mode would be to go the provincial legislature, which has primary jurisdiction over this matter, namely, the legislature of Quebec, and seek incorporation there in the first instance. And then, when the company has been formed, if it is necessary that it should have this power, let it come and get that incidental power from this parliament. That has been done in many cases in the past and is the proper way to legislate, it seems to me. For, what we are doing is this-in order to grant an incidental power, such as is mentioned by the hon. gentleman and which may never be exercised by the company at all, we are invading the jurisdiction of the legislature -of the province of Quebec, and, without 994 .

giving any voice to the representatives of the people of that province in their legislature, we are dealing with a great multitude of subjects which are properly matters to be considered by the legislature and not by the Dominion parliament at all. I would like to know from the right hon. gentleman who leads the House (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier) whether he regards this as a good mode of legislation. I raised this question once before during the present session and gave my opinion that the proper mode was to go to the provincial legislature for such powers as they could give, and not for this parliament to seize jurisdiction from them.

I have not changed my mind on this subject, but so far as I have been able to give consideration to the matter, that seems to me the proper way. For otherwise you usurp the functions of the provincial legislature by dealing with ninety-nine things that they could properly deal with on the plea that there is one subject concerning which the company wishes powers and which can be dealt with only by this parliament.

The organization of capital for the development of industry is one of the latest achievements of civilization. It is quite within the memory of hon. members present that companies could not be incorporated except by an Act of parliament. Men who wished to associate for the purpose of carrying on business had to come to the legislature to get their powers. It was found, after this had been carried on for some time, that no danger would be incurred, and, on the other hand every good purpose would be served if, instead of parliament dealing with these matters, power were delegated to the government. An Act was passed in this country following similar Acts passed in the mother country and elsewhere, giving the government power to grant charters for certain purposes. That Act has been in force for about twenty-five years. Now it is found too cumbrous, and a Bill has been introduced in another branch of the legislature to facilitate the creation of corporations. For my part, I cannot see what objection there can be to granting to any corporation the amplest powers to engage in business which will develop the country. I can see that there is one ground for restriction, and that is that no company should be granted a monopoly. When the question of granting a monopoly arises, that introduces another principle. But I cannot see why this company should not be organized to do business in pulp, to engage in navigation or to do anything in the way of that kind of business, especially in such a territory as that which is to be the scene of this company's operations. If there were danger that this company would come into conflict with existing interests, we should carefully study its nature, but so far as I know7 the provisions of the Bill, no mono-

poly is given. We give this company power to carry on its business, but I do not know any reason wliy another company cannot go into business right alongside o'f it. What wrong is done then, and what danger is involved to the interests of anybody ? I do not see that any good purpose would be served by refusing this incorporation, and, on the other hand it seems to me such a refusal might restrict the development of the country and put a damper upon the use of capital. I have followed the discussion with care, but have not heard any suggestion that there is a monopoly granted. But, if there is, we ought to attend to it. If the only objection is that the powers are too large and cover too many industries, I must say that I do not think there is force in that objection.

Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).

But I asked the right hon. gentleman as to the power of the provincial legislature and the advisability of our invading their jurisdiction for merely incidental purposes.

I do not see that we are invading any right of the legislature or that they are invading ours. We clearly have power to incorporate such a company as this, and I am strongly of opinion that it is wise for a company of this kind to seek its powers from the Dominion legislature. We can give it more extensive powers and more elasticity-

Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).

My right hon. friend, perhaps, is forgetting that the provincial legislatures have power to incorporate companies-

So it has.

Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).

To incorporate companies for provincial objects.

We also have power to incorporate companies.

Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).

But I say that every power sought by this company could be given and should be given by the provincial legislature, except the incidental power which may never be exercised or used of carrying on the business of common carriers between Canada and other countries. Are we to invade the jurisdiction of the provincial legislature in respect of ninety-nine subjects because there is one power which may or may not be required by the company and which is within our jurisdiction ? Is it not much better to let the provincial legislature deal with these ninety-nine subjects, and then, if the hundredth power is required, let the company, having secured incorporation from the provincial legislature, come before this parliament and seek this power if it is necessary ? Is not that the better mode of legislation in the interests of good government ?

I do not know that it is. No doubt, a great deal of what is done by this parliament could be done by the provincial legislature. The hon. gentleman goes further and says that it should be done by the provincial legislature. I do not see that, in passing this Bill, we are invading a single right of the province. We give them power to do business all over the world, and this company if it is in earnest, as I understand it is, can be better served by securing its powers from this parliament than by securing them from the provincial legislature.

I think my hon. friend (Mr. Borden, Halifax) if he considers the case more fully will realize that the power to carry on business as a common carrier is absolutely essential to the proper exercise of the rights conferred upon the company in other respects. The company could not get out the material necessary to their work from the Bay of Seven Islands except by the aid of navigation, nor can they hope to export their product in any other way than in steamers. Therefore, the right to carry on the business of common carriers to foreign countries and to other provinces is as essential to their business as the right to manufacture lumber.

Mr. HUGHES (Victoria).

Has the amendment been made to properly safeguard the railway interests ?

Yes.

Mr. J. GIRARD (Chicoutimi and Saguenay).

(Translation.) Mr. Chairman, the Bill which is now before the House relates to a company which is seeking to implant a new industry in the county of Chicoutimi and Saguenay. As the representative of that county, I think it my duty to say a few words on the Bill under discussion. It was my Intention at first to have spoken English : but as I am not quite familiar with the English language I thought it preferable to speak French.

The company is going into a territory which is almost an absolute wilderness, and in which there is practically nothing, except fishing, Which is confined mainly to codfish. There is a very small population, and with the exception of a few fishermen and telegraph employees, it consists mainly in Indians who repair to the Bay of Seven Islands several times a year. The Quebec government have gone to great expenditure in order to make known the natural resources of the province, its mineral wealth and its water powers ; and they have brought to light the fact, that on the north shore of the St. Lawrence, there is considerable forest wealth, notably around the Bay of the Seven Islands. There are also good farming lands and a pretty extensive agricultural area. Apart from the surveys made by the provincial goveru-

Sir WILFRID LAURIER.

ment, a few capitalists have also taken tlie means of ascertaining tlie accuracy of those surveys and data The promoters of this Bill, after going to the trouble of making those surveys, have purchased from the Quebec government one thousand miles of limits down in that territory and they have also acquired water-powers. They have, started building a railway and they are putting up a pulp mill, with a force of over a hundred men.

I do not intend to go now into the merits of this Bill, nor do I wish to inquire whether this parliament have tlie power to incorporate this company, or whether we are invading the rights of the local government in so doing. But from the standpoint of the public interest, I am free to say that on the North Shore where there are now only a few fishing settlements, the news that this manufacture was being put up was heard with the greatest satisfaction. This morning, I received several letters from Pointe aux Esquimaux, from Magpie and other places, and these people want to know whether the fishermen, who have no other means of livelihood, could find employment with the company at the Bay of Seven , Islands.

There is no doubt that the whole region of the North Shore will be greatly benefited by tlie fact that this company has acquired this territory and is going to put up those mills ; and on that ground alone, great credit is due to the promoters of this Bill, despite the fact that they are asking for such extensive powers around the Bay of Seven Islands.

It is well known that there are large deposits of magnetic iron ore all along the Moisie river, and that, many years ago, those deposits were worked by Mr. Molson, of Montreal ; but, for the want of transportation facilities, that mining enterprise had to be discontinued. But now, there are many chances of that industry being revived and put on a paying basis.

Some hon. gentlemen object to granting the company the power of carrying on the business of farming and stock-raising. I do not think such objection can be raised in the interest of the settlers. If I understand aright the Bill now before the House, it does not encroach upon the rights of the provincial legislature in that respect.

Now, as long as the provincial law governing the sale of lands is enforced, there is no danger of a monoply being granted, or of this company coming into conflict with the agricultural interests. With the bad record they have been building up for the north shore, which has been described as a barren wilderness, altogether unfit for farming purposes, surely, if this company were not to go into that territory and attempt to carry on a farming business, no private individual, unless he could dispose of unlimited resources, could ever dream of making the attempt. On the contrary,

should the company succeed in its operations, and should its venture be attended with paying results from a farming standpoint, other settlers would undoubtedly follow in its footsteps. As I remarked a little while ago, from the reports of the Crown Lands Department of the province of Quebec, we gather that around the Bay of Seven Islands, there are agricultural lands enough for two parishes to be carved out of them. But that territory is inaccessible except by water in the summer season. Now, the company which is seeking incorporation from this parliament intends to provide communications for the carriage of its agricultural and other products. On the other hand, such settlers as may go into that country will have a considerable market at their door, for the sale of their products, as they will have to supply the wants of all the workingmen in the employ of the company.

I do not think that the powers this company is asking for, extensive as they are, can come into conflict with the interests of the district. Should there toe a monoply, the action of that monopoly would be restricted to the territory to the east of the Saguenay river, which is included in the county which I represent here. I have no hesitation in saying that the people down in the Saguenay region will only be too glad to welcome that monopoly ; the more so as, with the exception of Escoumains and Man-icouagan there is no manufacturing industry at all in that district. As this company is willing to invest its capital down there, it ought to be encouraged to the fullest extent, and we ought to give the people all the necessary powers. Should their venture prove successful, other capitalists are likely to go into that district and invest their money in other manufacturing industries ; for there are many other water powers that could be operated in portions of the country which have not yet been granted.

On these several grounds, I hope that the objections raised may be waived, and that the company will be granted the charter it is seeking from this parliament. From the granting of this charter and the exercise of the powers asked for, there is no danger to be feared from the standpoint of the agricultural interests ; whereas from the standpoint of the manufacturing interests it cannot be fairly claimed that a monopoly is being created.