April 17, 1902

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The MINISTER OF INTERIOR.

However, that may be, what I desire to say is that so far as Mr. Devlin's opinions upon the subject of home rule for Ireland or the Nationalist question in Ireland are concerned, they do not concern either myself or the officers of the department particularly, and I am bound to say that I do not see why they should. There may be agents, and there will possibly be agents in the Department of the Interior scattered over various countries, who at times may be guilty of what may be regarded as political indiscretion which it would be quite impossible for any minister to prevent taking place. I do not know but what perhaps we might better leave Mr. Devlin to decide whether it is judicious for him to entertain opinions of a strong character upon political questions, so long as he does not do anything offensive to the government of the country in which he is doing his work. It appears to me that is the limit we ought to place upon the expression of political opinions. So long as Mr. Devlin does not make himself offensive to the government of the country in which he is working, I do not think we need concern ourselves particularly about his political views.

I venture however to say that if it were thought that Mr. Devlin was not a Nationalist in that part of the country in which he is doing his work, his usefulness would be largely gone, and therefore we cannot find fault witht him for at least allowing the people to believe that he entertains that political faith.

As to the effect of Mr. Devlin's tvork I shall quote a piece of testimony, and that is all I shall say on that phase of the question. I am not going to ask the House to take my own opinion or the opinion of any officer of the Department of Interior, nor even the opinion of any member of the Liberal party, but I shall quote the opinion of a gentleman who is a member of the same political party as our friends opposite, and who, I think is very competent to give an opinion on this subject. If the members of the House will look at the Ottawa ' Journal ' of March 31st, they will there find a leter signed ' J. J.,' headed ' Mr. Devlin and Irish emigration.' Now ' J. J.' are the initials of the name of the writer, and I have the permission of the editor of the Ottawa ' Journal ' to state what the name is. I knew the name of the writer at any rate, but I did not desire to disclose it without authority. The name of the person who wrote that letter to the Ottawa ' Journal ' is Mr. James Johnson, a gentleman who corresponds in various parts of

the British Isles, for a number of Canadian newspapers.

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CON

Uriah Wilson

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. WILSON.

Who is that ?

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L-C

Samuel Hughes

Liberal-Conservative

Mr. HUGHES (Victoria).

Jimmie Johnson.

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The MINISTER OF INTERIOR.

Mr. Johnson was formerly editor of the Kingston ' News ' and later on the editor of the Ottawa ' Citizen.' He was an intimate friend of the late Sir John Macdonald, and an active and aggressive member of the Conservative party, so that I cannot be accused of quoting the evidence of a person who has any prejudice in favour of the present government. I shall not trouble the House by reading all of this long letter which extends over a column. It will be found in the Ottawa * Journal ' of March 31st of this year. I will read a portion of it which I think will convince the House that they must not be mislead into taking an adverse view of Mr. Devlin's course, by the separated extracts from his statements which have been placed before the House by my hon. friend from Lennox (Mr. Wilson). Mr. Johnson, first of all, discusses the condition of affairs in Ireland. Referring to the statement as made by Mr. Devlin that he did not urge people to leave Ireland, Mr. Johnson points out that this statement is quite consistent with Mr. Devlin doing effective work. The condition of the people of Ireland is that large numbers are emigrating. It is therefore not necessary for any one to urge people to leave Ireland and if Mr. Devlin did so it would be unpopular, and he would array against himself very influential classes of the community. Mr. Johnson points out, that knowing the fact that large numbers were certain to leave Ireland the true position for Mr. Devlin to take is to induce those who are leaving to direct their course to Canada. That is exactly what Mr. Devlin is doing.

Some lion. MEMBERS. Hear, hear.

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The MINISTER OF INTERIOR.

Mr. Johnson goes on to write as follows

Irishmen, of all classes, will emigrate ; millions have done so, and the percentage of them who regret their action is infinitesimally small. As (if I remember rightly) I remarked in a letter from Ireland some time ago, Mr. Devlin's attitude is this : He addresses the countrymen of his forefathers and says to them : 1 I do not urge you to leave Ireland ; I do not want a man or woman who thinks he or she can get along well enough at home to pull up his or her stakes and to bid farewell, probably for ever, to the land of your birth, to which you are attached by so many natural ties. If, however, you have resolved upon seeking an existence in a new land-if you are determined upon trying your fortune elsewhere. I come to you as the representative of a government which can offer you terms of settlement as satisfactory as those to be obtained in any portion of the habitable globe. Canada is a country of vast extent, of Hon. Mr. SIFTON.

unlimited personal freedom,of great possibilities-a country whose inhabitants can boast of its health-promoting and invigorating climate, of magnificent scenery, unparalleled in the world ; of great lakes and noble rivers ; of natural resources which are rich and varied and practically inexhaustible ; of a system of government unequalled in it3 advantages in the general interests of the people ; of educational advantages within the reach of all ; a country where, as the result of industrious perseverance and frugality of living, a man may, within a reasonably short time become, in the most absolute sense his own landlord-the owner not only of the house in which he lives, but of the land upon which it is built.' Such, I understand, is Mr. Devlin's attitude ; and can it be successfully challenged ? I do not think so. And, in my humble opinion it is perfectly consistent with the declaration, * I do not urge Irishmen to leave Ireland.'

Some bon. MEMBERS. Hear, hear.

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The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.

It seems to me, Mr. Speaker, that I can offer no more satisfactory evidence, than this, from a gentleman of the same political faith as our friends opposite, a correspondent of Conservative papers, who is in England at the present time, who has been all over the ground, and who feels compelled to express his opinion that Mr. Devlin's attitude cannot be successfully challenged.

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CON

Thomas Simpson Sproule

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SPROULE.

Might I ask the hon. gentleman one question ? I understood him to say that he did not consider Mr. Devlin's statement, that he would never advise immigrants to leave Ireland, inconsistent witli his duty as an immigration agent. Does he regard it as consistent with Mr. Devlin's duty to belong to the National Land League and ta give subscriptions to it-a body which advises the people not to leave Ireland ?

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The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.

I will answer the hon. gentleman's question after S o'clock.

At six o'clock. House took recess.

After Kecess.

House resumed at eight o'clock.

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The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.

Mr. Speaker, when you left the Chair, at 6 o'clock, I had devoted some attention to the remarks whicli were made by the hon. member for Lennox (Mr. Wilson) in regard to the work of Mr. Devlin in Ireland. I think I had said practically all that I desired to say on that subject, except, in reply to the hon. member who interrogated me at 6 o'clock, that I do not think it is possible or desirable for the government to attempt to make inquisitorial examination Into the opinions of men in the civil service. We have Irish Catholics and Irish Protestants, French Catholics and French Protestants, English Catholics and English Protestants in the government service. They do not agree on all subjects either political or religious, and in a country like Canada I do not think it

is desirable for us to undertake to scrutinize too closely the opinions arrived at to some extent from the nationality of the individual. Our friends the Irish Catholics will entertain opinions on _the subject of home rule for Ireland as long as they see fit to do it, and no opinion that may be expressed to the contrary by any other portion of the community is likely to affect those opinions. It is quite true, we have not secured a large immigration from Ireland ; but I have not thought it desirable materially to change the position there, except to withdraw one of our agents on the report of the deputy minister. We now 'have one agent there in addition to Mr. Devlin, the third agent, Mr. Webster, having been taken from Dublin and sent to England to be attached to the High Commissioner's office ; and he is now in this country in charge of a party of British immigrants who have lately come out.

With regard to the increase to Mr. Devlin's salary, that was made on my own motion, on Mr. Devlin's application to me, repeated several times, and I am quite prepared to take the responsibility of it ; and I do not think that the House, particularly those members who are acquainted with Mr. Devlin, will say that the salary he receives is out of proportion to his ability and the energy he brings to the work in which he is engaged.

With regard to the attitude of the non. member for Lennox as to the number of immigrants we get from Ireland, I can only say that while it may be quite possible for him to pick out the year 1896, in which no agent was stationed in Ireland, and to say that because we got so many immigrants in that year, therefore the agents who have been stationed there have done nothing, and that we would get as many immigrants if there were no agents in Ireland, if the hon. gentleman had any acquaintance with immigration work he would know that such is not the case. We would get a certain number of immigrants from the British Isles if we had no agents there at all ; but the number would dwindle very largely. The general rule of immigration work is that we get immigrants just in proportion as our efforts are vigorous or otherwise. There is no rule more clear, as is shown by the results of the past five years, than that just as soon as you stop spending money and making efforts the number of immigrants you receive from any special section falls off. Local circumstances may control in some cases and cause a slight variation from this rule ; but the general rule unquestionably holds good.

Respecting the criticism of my hon. friend as to the form of the statements prepared by the Department of Immigration. I can only say that if my hon. friend will confer with the leader of the opposition, and take the responsibility of making any request respecting that matter, I will consider it very carefully, and do the best I can to meet

the wishes of hon. gentlemen opposite in that respect.

Just a few words with regard to another question which my hon. friend brought up, and which has been brought up in other places and at other times ; that is, the question which is to some extent dealt with by the Bill I had the honour of introducing yesterday-the question whether it is or is not true that Canada is being over run by immigrants of an undesirable character, persons of criminal antecedents and tendencies, and persons suffering from diseases of a malignant type. I can say at once to the House that there is no foundation whatever for that statement. It has grown out of a few trifling circumstances ; it has been magnified by a certain portion of the press ; and for reasons which interested persons entertain and are influenced by ; but as a matter of fact it is not worthy of discussion in this place. The circumstances are of the most trifling description. The position at the present time is this. A large number of the agents which the United States Immigration Department keeps in office along the line of the Canadian frontier are not kept there for the purpose of preventing people going from Canada to the United States because they are suffering from diseases or because they are undesirable immigrants. '

They are kept there for the purpose of enforcing the Alien Labour law, and it might happen in an odd case that some person, diseased or deformed, who attempted to cross the boundary, might be stopped. But they are not there for that purpose, and there is no occasion of that kind sufficiently general to require any attention whatever on our part. What we do require is to keep close watch on the people coming to our shores from foreign countries. The inspection of these people is made at Quebec, Halifax and St. John. 1 None is required at Montreal, because they are landed at Quebec and inspected before being sent forward. The United States department has officers and medical inspectors at these three places-Quebec, Halifax and St. John. Inspections are made there by the American officers, and our officials know every person who is rejected by them. It is all done within a few yards of where our officers are stationed, so that they know every person rejected. To show the wild statements made sometimes in the press, let me refer to the report, which was published not long ago, that there were over 200 diseased persons in the hospitals at Montreal who had landed there on their way to the United States and had been stopped by the American officers and thrown on our community. That was a Serious statement and it received attention. I took the trouble to have an investigation, and I found that in Montreal the medical superintendent of the Notre Dame Hospital reported that in January there were two im-

migrants admitted to his hospital, in February two, and in March six. The medical superintendent of the Royal Victoria reported that there had not been a sick or diseased immigrant admitted there during the past three months. The Montreal General Hospital reported that there were not at present any diseased immigrant patients in the hospital, nor had there been any within the past three months. The Hotel Dieu reported that during the past three months there were seven patients in that hospital, some of whom might be classed as immigrants, but their diseases were of the most trifling character, and nearly all were discharged as cured. As a matter of fact, out of 25,000 people who came to Canada and landed at the three ports I have mentioned, on their way to the United States, 132 were rejected by the American commissioners, and out of these 132 there are 39 in Canada at present. Of these 39, 21 are Germans who were rejected for a most trifling and absurd reason. They were rejected because some slight disease had broken out among the people. Our medical examiner declared that there was no reason why they should not be allowed to remain in Canada, and they were sent to the North-west and are there now. They were of a fairly good class and quite desirable as immigrants. That leaves 18 out of the 39, of wihom seven or eight are at St. John awaiting deportation, as soon as the Act is passed which I have introduced, so that the House will see that the wild statement I have referred to is entirely without foundation.

I have a copy of the interview with Mr. Watchorn, the special inspector of the United States government, which was given to the Montreal ' Star.' I shall not criticise that interview in detail, further than to say there is nothing in it which would cause me to qualify the statements I have made in any way. It will easily be understood that men stationed as officers along the Canadian frontier line are desirous to show their government that they have a great deal to do, as otherwise their offices would be abolished, and we may therefore look constantly for indications in the press that these gentlemen are extremely busy.

As regards the suggestion that' there should be an arrangement between the two governments respecting persons untit to be admitted to Canada, that arrangement now exists and is being carried out as completely as possible, and when the Act' I have introduced is on the statute-book, we will have the power to deport unsatisfactory immigrants which we cannot well do now. The only thing necessary to enable us to carry out the arrangement with absolute perfection is the power to deport immigrants rejected alike by our American commissioners and our own officers. As soon as we have that power, it will be exercised. This question has only arisen during the past year, and only within three or

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LIB

Clifford Sifton (Minister of the Interior; Superintendent-General of Indian Affairs)

Liberal

Hon. Mr. SIFTON.

four mouths has our attention been called to the necessity of legislation of that kind. That is all I need say upon the examination of the immigrants as they enter Canada.

I think it might be well for me to indicate the general scope of the work of the immigration branch. We spend over half a million dollars a year for the purpose of promoting this work. At present in Canada our work consists in receiving immigrants at the ocean ports. We have large accommodation sheds at Halifax, and commodious quarters at St. John and Quebec, and officers, matrons and medical attendants where necessary. In some places the quarantine officer does the medical work. At these places we receive immigrants and have every facility for making a proper examination and seeing everything is done which is required. We have also an office in Montreal, and in addition we give a grant to the immigration society in Montreal, which does a very valuable work in connection with looking after women who come out as immigrants and who are, for the time being, homeless or in need of assistance or protection. In the North-west, we have a staff at Winnipeg and officers stationed throughout the various parts of the country. The intention of the department is that every person who is shipped forward and reports at the Winnipeg office shall be taken care of as early as possible, and every effort made to keep track of that person until he is actually located on land and becomes a bona fide settler. That work differentiates our system very clearly from that followed in former years. The result of my residence for many years in the North-west convinces me that the reason for the failure of immigration work by the late government, was that when these people got to Winnipeg they were simply dumped out and left to take care of themselves. I am not adverting to that for the purpose of attacking or criticising the late government, but am simply pointing out what everybody in the west knows to be the ease. One of the first things I did was to organize a staff for that purpose. My hon. 'friend from Selkirk (Mr. McCreary) was put in charge as immigration commissioner, and until he became a candidate for a seat in this House, he performed that work with great energy and capacity, as is universally recognized by both political parties and citizens generally in the North-west. The result of the change was that instead of poor immigrants, but well deserving enough and willing enough to work, but lacking direction and knowledge of the country, being thrown on the community, those people were looked after and provided for, and care was exercised over them the first three months, in which time they became self-sustaining, and in nearly every case settled down and became self-supp'orting citizens. We practically have no trouble in the west in regard to taking care of our immigrants. The system has been thor-

ouglily worked out, the officers understand their business, and the work goes along with great regularity. Consequently, we are practically free from annoyances and difficulties which my hon. friend from Selkirk (Mr. McCreary) had to contend with during the earlier years when he took charge of it.

We have In Ireland, two agents, in Wales one, in England five, in Scotland one, on the continent of Eur ope one, and in the United States twenty. That is to say, we have in the United States twenty salaried officers and agents, besides about two hundred and fifty local agents who are paid entirely by commission. That gives the House a general idea of the scope of the work and the places where the work is done. The only material additions to that summary which I require to give is with regard to the continent of Europe. We are not allowed there to carry on openly an immigration propaganda. But we have an arrangement with what is known as the North Atlantic Transportation Company-1 think that is the name, though I may not have it technically accurate-under which the bonuses formerly paid to steamship companies are paid to that company. The company is an association of steamship agents, booking agents, who have been long in the business of booking passengers from the continent of Europe, and who understand the business far better than any government officer could. We pay the bonus to them on satisfactory evidence being furnished that the immigrants have become bona fide settlers of Canada. We have had a contract with the company for the last year or two, and it has lately .been renewed. They are men of wealth and substance and standing in the business they follow, and the relations of the department with them have been of an extremely satisfactory character.

Now, just a few words with regard to the results of the work. In the first place, I think hon. members who have heard the discussions that have taken place on this subject in past years will bear me out in saying I have not been excessively sanguine in the remarks I have, made on this subject. I have not sought to give the House the idea that we were entitled to claim any wonderful amount of credit for the work we were doing. Nor have I sought to overdraw the success of the efforts we were making. But I have indicated to the House from time to time the great difficulty under which the work was carried on, and have tried to point'out the systematic and persistent effort that is required if the work is to be successful. When I took charge some five years ago, it was admitted between the Prime Minister and myself when we discussed the subject-and time has not changed the opinion of either of us, 1 fancy-that the successful prosecution of the work of the immigration branch was one of the most important things, if not

the most important thing the government of Canada had to deal with. It was thought and I think present circumstances indicate the truth of it, that there was no line of expenditure that would produce for the people of Canada more desirable and satisfactory results than a successful immigration propaganda, resulting in the addition to our population of a large number of people who would engage in productive agricultural operations. I have no desire to waste time in recriminating or in calling special attention to the history of this work in the past. My hon. friend from Lennox has given certain statistics, some of which, perhaps, I would have given if he had not. The information is there, and it is not necessary for me to repeat it. But I do desire to point out that, at the time when the change of government took place and when we took charge of this work of The immigration department, the work carried on by our friends of the late government had proven to be an absolute failure. They did not succeed, apparently, in taking hold of this movement and carrying it to a successful conclusion. And the best proof of that is in the fact that they had themselves voluntarily reduced the amount of money they were expending in connection with the immigration operations, they had discharged their agents in various places, and the operations that were being carried on by them during the year when the change of government took place were the reverse of vigorous and showed that no great interest was being taken in this question. We had to begin and build up the work almost from the beginning. In certain parts of the work we have been extremely successful, in other parts, perhaps, not so successful. On the whole, I can say that the money expended has been well expended;

I claim that no fuoney has been expended by the government in the past five years that has produced more desirable, substantial and satisfactory results, or that will redound more to the credit and prosperity of Canada than the money expended by the immigration branch. I do not propose to enter unnecessarily into statistics upon this question. But I may say that we had, in 1890, from all sources, 1G,835 immigrants. The number has grown steadily. Last year it was, in round numbers, 50,000. I shall be very much surprised-and I am not inclined as a rule to be sanguine or to over-estimate what is going to happen-if that 50,000 does not grow to 70,000 during the present year. While, during the first two or three years of our work, the results were not so great, perhaps, as we might have hoped, it was not unreasonable that such would be the case. Let me point out some of the difficulties under which we labour. My hon. friend from Lennox has said that he'would be prejjared to back the government in any reasonable expenditure to get desirable immigrants from the United States. Let me tell you, Mr. Speaker, that when we began

our work in the spring of 1897, in the states of Minnesota and Dakota, we were faced by the fact that the farmers in the southern portion of the United States did not believe that we could raise wheat in Manitoba or the North-west Territories. Their ignorance of the situation, their ignorance of our country was so dense as to be almost incredible. To overcome that, we had to adopt every means we could think of- means that, necessarily, were very expensive. The first thing we did was to send agents to the fall fairs throughout the southern portions of Minnesota and Dakota, and also in parts of Iowa and other western [DOT]states, with exhibits of farm produce. These men took such things as grain in the sheaf and vegetables of all kinds and exhibited them at these fairs, advertised their exhibits in the local papers and induced people to come and see them. In this way we got many to understand what kind of a country it was we were inviting the people to come to. We found that by this means we accomplished something. But we found we had to do something more radical than that, and we adopted the following means : We found that the editors of the papers in the western states had state editorial associations, and that those associations were in the habit every year of taking pleasure trips through various parts of the country, and we utilized that fact by inviting these state editorial associations to take their pleasure trip through the western portion of Canada. We secured transportation for these associations over the Canadian Pacific Railway and took them through from Winnipeg to the Pacific coast. We did this three years in succession, and we saw while they were on the trip that they enjoyed themselves as well as possible. The expense was not very great, the visitors were accorded a hearty reception at the hands of the people along the line, and they saw the country under the most favourable circumstances. They were quite ready to accede to our request, when they went back home, that each editor should write a fair and reasonable account of what he had seen in western Canada. The House will understand that the result of that policy being followed respecting three or four of the great western states, and the distribution of literature favourable to Canada, and descriptive of western Canada, was entirely to change the sentiment of tl^p rural classes in those states. The result is shown in the growing figures of immigration which we have received from those states. We started in the first year with an American immigration in 1897, of 712 ; in 1898,- of 9,119 ; in 1899, of 11,945 ; in 1900, of 15,500 ; in 1901, of 17,987. I do not think it is possible that we should have less than from 25,000 to

30,000 this year, and gentlemen who are in a better position to make an estimate than I am put the figures considerably higher. So it will be seen that for the purpose of Hon. Mr. SIFTON.

making known the resources, not only of western Canada, but of all Canada, through the western states where there is an agricultural class who are ideal settlers for Canada, the money we have spent and the efforts we have made have proved to be almost phenomenally successful and satisfactory.

Before I speak more upon that point, I am going to give a few figures to show the results of the policy which has been carried on. I have already said that the total number of immigrants who have gone iu there rose from 16,835 in 1896, to about 50,000 last year. During the first three mouths of this year, to the 31st of March, we have reported over 10,000 immigrants through the Winnipeg office; the Winnipeg office keeps track of all the immigrants who go into Manitoba and the North-west Territories. Last year during the same period, from the 1st of January to the 31st of March, the number was 5,800 ; so that this year we have almost doubled the record of last year. The House will see that I am within the mark when I say that as against the

50,000 last year we are very likely to have not less than 70,000 this year.

The statement is also made that the immigrants we are receiving are mostly foreigners of a doubtful class, and it may be interesting to give some figures in that connection to show what the facts are. Last year, out of 49,000 immigrants that we received, 11,810 were British, 17,983 were from the United States, 1,750 were Scandinavians, 984 were Germans, the rest were miscellaneous nationalities from the continent. Now let it be remembered that all these immigrants passed through the hands of our officers, who know exactly to what class these people belong. I am therefore quite justified in saying that there is no foundation for the statement that these people are not of a class that are likely to become good settlers and good citizens of Canada. Apart altogether from that opinion which I express, the House will see that in round numbers 30,000 out of 50,000 were British and Americans.

The question of the cost of the immigrants is one respecting which the House may not have consulted the report of the department, and I will mention the figures, which can be found in the annual report. The cost of immigrants from the continent last year was $2.65 per head ; the British immigrants cost $9.58 per head ; the United States immigrants cost $7.96 per head ; the average per capita was $6.07; including the expenditure in Canada for looking after them, the total was $8.34 per head. Now if lion, gentlemen have paid much attention to the question of populating vacant lands and colonizing generally, they will know that these figures are small. The experience of land companies in the western states, and of : railway companies generally has been that 1 on an average-I think my hon. friend from Selkirk (Mr. McCreary), who has had a

good deal of experience In this line will confirm what I say-on an average each head of a family who has located upon railway companies' land has cost the land company about $50. As against that we are able to show that our expenditure with respect to immigrants that we have received is about $8.34 per head, or allowing four to a family, about $35 per head of a family.

Now as to the actual results which have followed in the way of settlement, I think it will be seen that they are satisfactory. During the four years which preceded 1897, the number of homestead entries made in Manitoba and the North-west Territories was 9,844 ; the number of homestead entries that were made in the succeeding four years was 27,130. Now it will be evident to any person that this growth could not happen by accident, it is simply the result of persistent work which we have carried on for the purpose of colonization. The net number of homestead entries which were granted in 1896, taking off those that were cancelled, was less than 150, in 1901 the number was 8,136. For the first three months of the year 1902, the number of homestead entries that have been granted in Manitoba and the North-west Territories amounts to 3,024, and we may confidently expect that at the end of the year we will be able to show a total of over 10,000 homestead entries in the west. I do not know that I need to go into any further details for the purpose of showing the success of the work we have carried on. [DOT]

But, I may point out to the House that not only is settlement carried on by the granting of homestead entries, but settlement has progressed to the extent and the class of settlers we are getting in is improving to the extent, that, I fancy, fully one-half of tne settlers that are actually located on the land in the west are located on purchased lands and have not taken up homestead at all. The division, I would say, roughly speaking, would be about one half, so that in addition to something over 8,000 homestead entries last year, there was practically an equal amount of land sold by various railways and land companies with the result that practically an equal amount of land was settled in addition to that which was settled by the taking up of homesteads, or of free grant lands. The statistics in regard to the sale of lands show very clearly what has been going on.

Let us take the case of five companies having land for sale in the North-west Territories-the Hudson's Bay Company, the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, the Manitoba and South-western Colonization Railway Company, the Qu'Appelle, Long Lake and Saskatchewan Railroad and Steamship Company, and the Calgary and Edmonton Railway Company, these being the companies which are the principal land owners in the North-west. The sales since 1893 have been as follows :

Year. Acres.

1893 120,000

1894. 68,666

114,000

108,000

i qq7 222,000

1898 .. . 448,000

1899 . 462,000 .. .. 648,000

1901 621,000

And for the three months of this year these five companies have sold 443,000 acres of land. The House will see that there has been an enormous change in the position of affairs. In fact, I need not say anything to convince hon. gentlemen from the west, or hon. gentlemen who are following the state of affairs there, that a transformation has taken place in regard to the position of affairs in that western country. In 1896, it would be safe to say, that there was no progress being made. This was the position of the population of Manitoba and the North-west Territories. Practically, things were at a standstill and in the great territory of Alberta, I think I am safe in saying, that the people, to some extent at least, were actually moving out of that territory. At the present time there is an enormous stream of population going into that territory and not only going into Alberta but into different portions of the Canadian North-west. As a result of the effect which our work is having we find that the inauguration of a movement of settlers from the western states to Canada has caused speculators from the cities of St. Paul and Minneapolis and other western cities to go into the North-west Territories and buy up large quantities of land. We find now that the work which we as a government are doing in the western states through our agents is being enormously supplemented by the efforts of these American speculators who have bought land in Manitoba and the North-west Territories and who are endeavouring to co-operate with us in getting settlers to go upon the land which they have purchased. I might give to the House a practical indication of one result of the work which we have been doing. I had sent to me the other day a special issue of the Minneapolis ' Journal,' a paper published in the city of Minneapolis which has a very large circulation and I find, Sir, that the Minneapolis ' Journal ' has actually published a special edition dealing with the resources of western Canada in which they describe the resources of our western .country in as glowing terms as any government pamphlet could do. I fancy that between the time when the farmers of Minnesota would not belive that we could grow wheat north of the international boundary line and the time when we find a great Minneapolis paper making a special issue for the purpose of advertising our land, there must have been a large amount of effective work done. I find on the front page, head lines to this effect :

American Invasion of Western Canada a Peace. fui Invasion.

Bumper Crops of 1901 made Western Canada Canada's Land of Rich Promise.

I simply bring this to tbe attention of me House to show one of the results of the work we have been doing in the western states, and that we have secured the co-operation of the most important agency that could possibly be obtained. The people who would not believe the representations of our agents and who would not read the government pamphlets will read the representations and statements of their papers, will believe these statements and will be influenced by them to a much greater extent than they would be by any other agency that could be employed. We have these land companies in Minneapolis, St. Paul and Omaha, and we have therefore cooperating agencies in these western cities of the most effective description and the result is seen in what is taking place in our western country at the present time.

I am not going to burden the discussion by quoting extracts to any extent at all, but I am going to cite, for the benefit of hon. gentleman on the other side of the House, a few remarks from papers which support them and which, therefore, cannot be accused of being unduly biased in favour of the government. There is no paper in Canada that lias more violently attacked me and attacked the policy which I have pursued in regard to immigration than the Winnipeg ' Telegram.' The Winnipeg ' Telegram' in its issue of the 3rd of this month used language to this effect :

Probably there has never been a greater movement with ' back to the land ' behind it than is now going on in the province of Manitoba and the North-west. The general tendency from all quarters of the globe seems to be concentrated in the pursuit of agriculture. Settlers are coming in from all quarters of the globe, but the mo-st notable influx of land buyers is from the republic to the south.

The Winnipeg ' Tribune ' refers to this special edition and describes the influx of people in much the same terms. We have had articles in the New York ' Sun,' the Springfield ' Republican ' and in the leading United States papers describing the movement, and all attributing a vigour and extent to it, which I, myself, can hardly believe to be well founded, because, if the statements which we find in these papers were correct, the numbers who would he coming would be much beyond anything we have hitherto ventured to hope for.

I have called the attention of the House to these facts for a purpose, and that purpose, Mr. Speaker, is. if possible, to enlist the sympathy of hon. members on both sides of the House in the vigorous prosecution of this work and in everything that tends to the promotion of immigration in the west. I want to say, as a responsible minister, having before me the fact that Hon. Mr. SIFTON.

what I say is taken down and that I am likely to be judged by it in the future, that I have formed the deliberate opinion, and I entertain the deliberate opinion to-night, that Canada has, during the next two or three years, the greatest opportunity of promoting its own greatness that it has ever had since confederation.

I beg to say, Mr. Speaker, that I do not believe that there is a gentleman in this House who fully realizes what can be done for the Dominion of Canada during the next five years , by a progressive agricultural settlement in the west, if all is done that ought to be done for the purpose of promoting it and assisting it, and encouraging it. Of course tilings may happen which we do not anticipate. Unexpected misfortunes may check this movement, or something may occur to prevent us reaping the full benefit of it. But speaking tonight from the information I have at my command, speaking with as full knowledge of the subject as it is possible to derive from the reports of officers who are engaged in the work; I believe I am safe in saying that we have inaugurated a movement of population towards western Canada much larger than that which existed in 1881 and 1882, when the first movement of population went there, and moreover, the present movement is coming from the outside and not from within Canada herself. The movement, in fact, is adding the very best class of people of the western states, by thousands, to our British population.

Now, Mr. Speaker, I am not mentioning this for the purpose of getting any special credit for myself. The work has been carried on to the best of the ability of the men in whose hands it has been placed.

I do not agree with my hon. friend from Lennox (Mr. Wilson) when he says that a good crop or two would do the work and bring in settlers to fill up the country. I have lived there for a good many years.

I have seen good crops, and I have seen good prices ; I have seen bad crops and I have seen bad prices; but I never saw this immigration movement from the western states until the work was done there which got into the minds of the people of that country a full and complete knowledge of the resources of Canada. When that was done, and only when that was done, did we begin to reap the results of our work.

If the House will consider for a few moments the possible effects of what is going on now, hon. gentlemen will realize its vast importance to the whole Dominion of Canada. Last year the production of Manitoba and the North-west Territories was enormous considering the size of the popu lation. It must be remembered that out of the total population, perhaps not more than two-thirds contributed to that crop. Out of the population of 450,000 (or nearly

500.000 now), about one-third were persons who had come in within the last three years,

and it is not until a settler has been in the country three or four years that he is able to produce to any considerable extent or to add appreciably to the general production. Therefore, only about two-thirds of the population of the west contributed to last year's crop. When you consider the enormous production of last year com-' ing from certainly not more than 300,000 producers, you have only to reflect for a moment to realize what the production will be when we have from 1,000,000 to 1,500,000 upon these fertile prairies.

What I desire to impress upon the House is this : That while we have been talking in past years about haying a large population upon our western prairies, we have been talking about a thing that did not appear to be in sight ; a thing that was in the future; a thing that might come, but as to which we had no evidence that it was likely to come in the near future. I want to tell the House now, that if we can get several thousand settlers into the Territories, this year, and increase that again next year, then in six or seven years we will have such a producing population as will be of untold benefit to the whole Dominion of Canada. When we talk now about peopling the prairies, we are talking about something that is present; something that is tangible; something that we can all unite on no matter what our political predilections may be.

I do not plead this in order to escape criticism. because I perfectly understand that the work of the Department of Immigration, like the work of any other department of government is a matter for political criticism, and I expect to get my share as do other members of the government. But I desire to say, that so far as the result is concerned, we must all agree that the result is most desirable and if matters are carried on as they ought to be, that result is almost within our grasp.

While I am upon this subject, I want to say a word or two more upon the necessities of the situation in the west. The House will pardon me for departing a little from the question immediately before the House, but perhaps there will be no discussion in this House again in respect to which it will be as opportune as it is now. ' What I want to say is this: Many gentlemen who represent constituencies in eastern Canada are unable to understand the importunity of our western people in regard to railroads. They are apt to think, and not without apparent reason, that our people are sometimes unreasonable in their demands for railway accommodation, which would seem to be far in excess of that which older portions of the eastern provinces possess. I want to call the attention of the House to a fact known to persons who are familiar with the western country. In the first place, that is a wheat .raising country; in many sections it is almost exclusively a wheat-, raising country, and the conditions are different from what they are in any other portions of Canada. The farmer from the western states who has been accustomed to live in a wheat-raising state, will not go anywhere that he does not think he is going to be within twenty miles of a railway. He simply won't go. He will go 200 miles or 500 miles away if he has reason to believe that there will be a railway there within a few years, but he will not settle down with the idea that he is going to be thirty or forty miles from a railway, because he knows from experience that no man can raise wheat and haul it that distance to a railway station and make it pay. The enormous labour of hauling large crops of wheat a long distance has proven by experience to be such that wheat growing cannot be successfully carried on under such conditions. Our people have learned that lesson by experience. The result is that if there is a section of the country thirty or forty miles away from any railway that is projected, and the people get the idea that there is not going to be a railway there within a reasonable time, they will simply get out and go to some other part of the country which is favourably situated, and which is likely to get a railway soon. My object in making this reference is. to commend to the favourable consideration of the House the idea of a liberal policy in respect to the construction of colonization railways through the Northwest. I am satisfied that if parliament desires to reap to the fullest extent possible the benefit which can be reaped from the position in which we stand to-day in respect to immigration, parliament will have to face this railway question in the Northwest. Without being too sanguine, I think I can say to the House : That we practically have got over the hill upon the immigration question; we have surmounted the principal difficulties, and we may now hope for a pretty rapid return for the money which we have been expending in past years.

Just a word or two in regard to the work of the department in Great Britain. My hon. friend from Lennox (Mr. Wilson) mentioned that changes have been made in Great Britain. Members of the House will remember that two years ago I stated that I was not altogether satisfied with the way in which the work in Great Britain was being conducted, and that an attempt was being made to improve the character of the work there. The work in other places had been brought under the direct control of the department, and for the last year Mr. Preston, the inspector in England, had been devoting his attention largely to continental immigration, with a considerable degree of success. I stated to the House last year that the work in London had been placed under the High Commissioner, but practically, as to its actual superintendence, in charge of Mr. Preston. That was the result of a conference which I had with

Lord Strathcona when I was in London, and when I discussed the subject very fully with him. When Lord Strathcona came to Canada some time ago, I again discussed it with him, with the result that the work was put more decidedly under the charge of the department and separated from the other work of the High Commissioner's office. While it was to remain under Lord Strathcona's direction as High Commissioner, the reports were to he sent direct to the head office here, and the officers were to receive instructions directly from us as to how the work should be carried on. I was not satisfied that that arrangement would be carried out successfully without some supervision here, and therefore I sent over to England Mr. Smart, the deputy minister, who has given special attention to the subject of immigration during the time he has been in charge of the department, and who is thoroughly competent to deal with any question in connection with it. Under Mr. Smart the change was made, and I think that those who follow the English papers will admit that the amount of attention he received from the English press was extremely gratifying, and the practical results, as far as immigration is concerned, have been still more gratifying; because the work of the office has assumed larger proportions from the time the change was made and a different method of carrying on the work was inaugurated. One thing that was done when Mr. Smart was in England 1 may mention to the House as an illustration of the difference in methods applied, and the result of it. While Mr. Smart and Mr. White, the press agent of the department, were in London, they conceived the idea of getting out an issue of a newspaper devoted specially to Canada. They got out the paper, had 500,000 copies printed, from an advertising agency got lists of names of agricultural labourers and farmers, to whom they thought it desirable to send the paper, and had the 500,000 copies distributed to them through the mails. The result was that the department received an enormous amount of inquiries from parts of the country from which no inquiries had been received before, showing that the change in method by which direct communication was had with the class of people whom it was desired to reach, did have very satisfactory results. It is intended to foilow in Great Britain more largely the method which has been followed successfully in the United States, that is, to relieve the agents largely of the work of lecturing, and to trust more to advertising and literature to bring about a desire on the part of immigrants to move. This, particularly advertising in the regular press, is the best method of calling attention to the resources of the country, and inducing people to make up their minds to come. I do not know that there is anything else to which I desire at the present moment to draw attention; but if in the course of the discussion on the estimates any Hon. Mr. SIFTON.

other information is desired, I shall be very happy to give it.

Motion agreed to, and House went into Committee of Supply.

Salaries of agents and employees in Canada, Great Britain and foreign countries, $110,000.

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The MINISTER OE THE INTERIOR.

I think it might be satisfactory to the House if I stated in general terms how the vote was expended in 1900-1901. Salaries of agents and employees on the immigration staff, $109,590.44. Salaries of extra clerks at the head office, $4,757.72. Travelling and office expenses-in Canada, $23,724,90; in the United States, $31,185.62; in England, $11,696; in Ireland, $6,804.05; in Scotland, $5,119.88; on the continent, $4,065.99; total, $82,696.45. Miscellaneous expenses in the High Commissioner's office in London, $4,704.77. Postage at the head office, $4,827. Commissions and bonuses- in the United States, $11,879.67; to children, $2,716; British and continental, $28,136.19; total, $42,418.47. Services for land guides in the west and interpreters, $8,701.20. Advertising and printing-in Great Britain, $74,429.50; on the continent, $2,238.86. The last item is very small, the explanation being that under our arrangement with the North Atlantic Company, they paid for the advertising and all the expenses in that respect. The general expenses for immigration were as follows : On medical expense we spent $3,424 ; on laundry and miscellaneous $700 ; on supplies, &c., $735 ; on uniforms and equipment, $5,215 ; on collections of exhibits, $2,150 ; on literature and expenses of delegates, $2,781. Then we provided some medals for competition in the British schools so as to encourage the children in acquiring knowledge of Canada. For those medals we paid $614.14. We gave a special grant to the Quebec and Lake St. John Railway, which we have been in the habit of giving some years, that being a railway company which has done a good deal to promote settlement and colonization in the neighbourhood of Lake St. John. We have given that company $8,000. We are giving a colonization society which works amongst the French Canadians in. the eastern states and locates them in the neighbourhood of Lake St. John, $2,400. We have spent on hospitals, $3,696 ; on a colonization society at Algoma, $250; and on exhibits at Winnipeg Industrial Exhibition, $1,000. A good many people from Dakota and Minnesota visited this exhibition. Then we paid a gratuity to one of our officers of $200 ; miscellaneous expenditure, $1,696 ; the Workingmen's National Immigration Society, $1,000 ; the Girl's Home at London, $1,000 ; the Girl's Home at Winnipeg, which takes care of young women who have no home, several hundred dollars ; making a total expenditure of $447,739. That was the ex-1 pendifhre in 1900-1. and will give a fail*

idea of the manner in which the money is distributed.

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Robert Laird Borden (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).

Can you give us an idea of how the $100,000 for agents and employees in the three countries mentioned is distributed ?

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The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.

It is distributed as follows : Salaries of

agents in Canada, $60,312.50 ; United States, $27,250 ; Great Britain and Ireland, $20,100 ; the continent, $3,400.

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Robert Laird Borden (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).

What does the amount expended in Canada cover ?

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The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.

That pays all the officers of the department, including those who have charge of the buildings at Halifax, St. John and Quebec, our staff in the North-west and Winnipeg, and all over the country, as well as some extra clerks here.

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Arthur W. Puttee

Independent Labour

Mr. PUTTEE.

I understand that the principal office in Liverpool has been moved to Birmingham. Why has that been done ? It seems to me that Liverpool is the proper place to have a head office.

The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR, The office has not been changed from Liverpool, but when the deputy minister was there he came to the conclusion that the staff might be better distributed. He is leaving one of the officers in Liverpool, who had been working there, Mr. Jury, and the other officer named Mitchell-a very excellent officer, with whom I am personally acquainted-has been sent to Birmingham, so that the office at Liverpool is not closed, but we are sending one of the officers to Birmingham.

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Arthur W. Puttee

Independent Labour

Mr. PUTTEE.

Is Birmingham to be the principal station ?

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The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.

Liverpool must be the principal station because it is the shipping port.

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Arthur W. Puttee

Independent Labour

Mr. PUTTEE.

I can hardly see what is the object of having an office in the city of Birmingham. It is hardly likely you are going to procure agriculturists from that district. You might as well expect to find them in Whitechapel. The labour interests of the country, in years past and this year, have approached the different governments and Ministers of the Interior, and have always pointed out their opposition to state, aided immigration to labourers, ^ and the reply has always -been that the policy of the government was only to encourage people coming into the country who are going to settle on our lands. I was on a deputation only last month, which waited on the First Minister, and he then reiterated that policy. He told the deputation that he would have instructions sent to the agents instructing them that they were not to go out of their way to induce mechanics, labourers, wage-earners to come to Canada,

and the next thing I heard was that th^ office was being moved from Liverpool to Birmingham.

There is another matter to which I would like to draw the attention of the hon. mini ister. Last August, just when the western; crop was ready, there were not only large) excursions inaugurated in eastern Canada, but also in Great Britain, and circulars werq sent out from the High Commissioner's* office in London, stating that nine shillings and ten shillings a day, with board, was! being paid harvesters in western Canada. That was not true. Harvesters were not being paid $2.25 or $2.50 a day, with board, in the west. The result was that during the third week of August quite a large number left England and arrived in the west about the first week of September, only to find that they had been practically misled. This caused a great deal of dissatisfaction, and those who could do so returned straight to^ England, and no doubt that offset, to some) extent, the work which our agents are dot ing over there. We should be very careful not to publish statements so much overdrawn when the facts can be ascertained.

I believe that the lack of proper direction in the importing and distributing of the excursionists was the means of driving^ a great many British citizens across the line! to the United States, and I mention this) in order that it may be avoided in the. future.

The thing was done in this way. In England, and also in the east here, there was a good deal of publicity given to the very true statement that there was a tremendous crop to be gathered, and that 20,000 harvesters were needed. About 18,000 came up, nearly, as many as were wanted. The country had to get them. There was so little planing, so little ordering of this movement, that it was left mostly to the railway companies ; and I submit that a railway company does not go into these things thoroughly enough, and is not the proper authority to trust in such matters. The result was that large numbers of men were gathered together in small towns, sometimes after the market had been fully supplied. Unfortunately, at that time we were struck by a wet seasonf there.

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The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.

When did that occur ?

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April 17, 1902